Cambridge platform changes

William3000 · 11 Mar 2024

Magdalia said:
Does this so called plan have any official status?

A south end footbridge has the same challenge as the existing north end footbridge: it is only possible by shortening a bay platform to make space for the stairs and lift on the old station side. The result would be platform 2 no longer able to take 160m 8 car trains.

The impact on the main entrance would not be great: a few people who live on the Romsey side of the line and walk to/from the station, and the students going to and from Hills Road College. I doubt that a Clifton Road entrance would have any public transport links. The only bus route that uses Cherry Hinton Road already goes via the main station entrance.

Platfotm

Magdalia said:
Does this so called plan have any official status?

A south end footbridge has the same challenge as the existing north end footbridge: it is only possible by shortening a bay platform to make space for the stairs and lift on the old station side. The result would be platform 2 no longer able to take 160m 8 car trains.

The impact on the main entrance would not be great: a few people who live on the Romsey side of the line and walk to/from the station, and the students going to and from Hills Road College. I doubt that a Clifton Road entrance would have any public transport links. The only bus route that uses Cherry Hinton Road already goes via the main station entrance.

Platform 2 is actually a 10-car bay, while platform 3 is an 8-car. So I believe there would be scope to reduce the length of platform 2 so that it’s only 8 car and build the southern footbridge . Furthermore pre-electrification there was a third track in the middle of platforms 2 and 3; this is now taken up by electrification masts but it would theoretically be possible to mount these on the platforms as they are on platforms 5 and 6 at the opposite end of the station. It would also be possible then to widen platform 2 on to the existing track bed and reinstate the former line thus providing room for a southern bridge but this option would be more expensive.

Magdalia said:
Does this so called plan have any official status?

A south end footbridge has the same challenge as the existing north end footbridge: it is only possible by shortening a bay platform to make space for the stairs and lift on the old station side. The result would be platform 2 no longer able to take 160m 8 car trains.

The impact on the main entrance would not be great: a few people who live on the Romsey side of the line and walk to/from the station, and the students going to and from Hills Road College. I doubt that a Clifton Road entrance would have any public transport links. The only bus route that uses Cherry Hinton Road already goes via the main station entrance.

The eastern entrance could serve taxis freeing up the Station Square for public transport, buses/trans etc and less car dominated (though taxi drivers may not like that). The eastern side could then cater for some car parking.

Steve Harris said:
Ive changed that for you, due to the following:-
Romsey residents already use the present Carter bridge, any new bridge to the south would be beneficial to the residents of the Coleridge area of the city, and potentially some residents of the Queen Ediths ward.

Indeed.

Cambridge has got a LOT busier since my days on the station spotting. Back then it was 1tph London, 2tph Royston, 1train per 2 hrs King's Lynn, ditto for Ipswich (more tph in the peak). How many do we have in the off peak now ? 5 (or is it 6) towards Hitchen/London alone !! Then you have the Norwich -Stansted and Birmingham- Stansted's to add + Ipswich.

It was incredibly quiet in the late 80s. As you say in a typical hour there would be:
A loco hauled express to London Liverpool Street (incredible to think Cambridge only had one train an hour to London). At the time I remember there were no through trains at all. There were then two an hour to Royston. Stansted Airport station hasn’t been built. Ipswich I think had a two hourly service. There were no direct trains to Norwich. King’s Lynn was a two or thre carriage DMU once an hour or every two hours, and then there seemed to be an hourly to Peterborough and bizarrely one that ran to Blackpool North a few times a day.

In those days:
1 was used for London Liverpool St
2 for Royston
3 seemed to be used for parcels and wasn’t used for passenger trains
4 for King’s Lynn
5 for Ipswich
6 for Peterborough and Blackpool North
7 and 8 didn’t exist

Steve Harris said:
Yep.

I'd say the station see's over double the services what it used to see pre electrification.

I would say more like triple. In about 1989 I think there were typically about 5 or 6 trains departing Cambridge ever hour and for a period none were through trains. It’s typically now about 15 an hour, of which about 6 are through trains.

RailUK Forums

plugwash · 11 Mar 2024

dk1 said:
Half-hourly all day Kings X to Ely (hourly Lynn off peak half hourly peak) plus half hourly Liv St to Cambridge North.

plus half-hourly cambridge to brighton semi-fasts and hourly cambridge to kings cross stoppers.

IIRC the kings cross stoppers are short enough to fit in platform 2/3, but the brighton trains have to use 1/4/7/8 because a 12 car train won't fit in 2/3.

MikeWM · 11 Mar 2024

The mysterious platform changes that most fascinate me is the tendancy, particularly late at night, to switch platform at the last minute from 1 to 4, or vice versa. There are obvious reasons for doing this on occasion, but I've seen this happen many times when there has been nothing else on either platform or on any route in/out the station that would have prevented the use of the original booked platform. More often than not, it seems to catch the staff out too, the change often being announced just 1-2 minutes before the train arrives.

It isn't a massive inconvenience, though the further you've gone from the station entrance to get away from the crowds the further the walk that the platform change entails - but I do wonder why it happens so often in the first place.

Bikeman78 · 11 Mar 2024

Steve Harris said:
Indeed. An 8 car 317 will fit in platform 2 and platform 3.

As for track bashing the Stansted North curve, I did it decades ago in a Class 303 !!!

Going back to your original point, was the inbound service due to go to the carriage Sidings? (as that would have a bearing on were you got platformed).

The 317s went back out quite quickly, can't recall if to Liverpool Street or another run to Stansted. It was around 1645 so they probably did the 1650 up.

MikeWM said:
The mysterious platform changes that most fascinate me is the tendancy, particularly late at night, to switch platform at the last minute from 1 to 4, or vice versa. There are obvious reasons for doing this on occasion, but I've seen this happen many times when there has been nothing else on either platform or on any route in/out the station that would have prevented the use of the original booked platform. More often than not, it seems to catch the staff out too, the change often being announced just 1-2 minutes before the train arrives.

It isn't a massive inconvenience, though the further you've gone from the station entrance to get away from the crowds the further the walk that the platform change entails - but I do wonder why it happens so often in the first place.

Generally the xx28 from Liverpool Street to Cambridge North stop at platform 1 at Cambridge whilst the xx58 run through platform 1 (as opposed to using the centre road) and stop at platform 4. How is the latter communicated to the driver, especially if a train booked to use platform 1 is switched to 4? I recall arriving at platform 1, on a train booked to use 1, but I think the intention was that it would use platform 4. The driver hesitated for about a minute before releasing the doors. The screens were showing the delayed King's Lynn train which eventually went into 4 via the centre road and then the Cambridge North train departed first via the centre road, no doubt with several King's Lynn bound passengers on board!

dk1 · 11 Mar 2024

plugwash said:
plus half-hourly cambridge to brighton semi-fasts and hourly cambridge to kings cross stoppers.

IIRC the kings cross stoppers are short enough to fit in platform 2/3, but the brighton trains have to use 1/4/7/8 because a 12 car train won't fit in 2/3.

Yes the person I replied to earlier had mentioned 6 trains per hour towards Hitchin.

MikeWM · 11 Mar 2024

Bikeman78 said:
Generally the xx28 from Liverpool Street to Cambridge North stop at platform 1 at Cambridge whilst the xx58 run through platform 1 (as opposed to using the centre road) and stop at platform 4. How is the latter communicated to the driver, especially if a train booked to use platform 1 is switched to 4?

Actually I've meant to ask that on here for quite a while. The signals by the University Press buildings show (IIRC) '1' for 1, and 'T' ('Through', I suppose) for 4 via the scissors crossover. But I've not seen what they show for 'go through platform 1 and stop on 4', or whether there is some other way the driver is told to do this.

I recall arriving at platform 1, on a train booked to use 1, but I think the intention was that it would use platform 4. The driver hesitated for about a minute before releasing the doors. The screens were showing the delayed King's Lynn train which eventually went into 4 via the centre road and then the Cambridge North train departed first via the centre road, no doubt with several King's Lynn bound passengers on board!

Well, yes. Sometimes the screens update in time on these frequent last-minute switches between 1 and 4, but quite often they don't. The station staff are pretty good at making manual announcements when this happens, but it is still confusing. And I'm still not sure why it happens *at all* when both platforms are free and there's nothing else nearby that would require the platform to be changed.

Steve Harris · 11 Mar 2024

Bikeman78 said:
The 317s went back out quite quickly, can't recall if to Liverpool Street or another run to Stansted. It was around 1645 so they probably did the 1650 up.

Generally the xx28 from Liverpool Street to Cambridge North stop at platform 1 at Cambridge whilst the xx58 run through platform 1 (as opposed to using the centre road) and stop at platform 4. How is the latter communicated to the driver, especially if a train booked to use platform 1 is switched to 4? I recall arriving at platform 1, on a train booked to use 1, but I think the intention was that it would use platform 4. The driver hesitated for about a minute before releasing the doors. The screens were showing the delayed King's Lynn train which eventually went into 4 via the centre road and then the Cambridge North train departed first via the centre road, no doubt with several King's Lynn bound passengers on board!

I used to know the answer to this question, but, I haven't been to Cambridge for quite a few years now... but it will be something along the lines of this :-

Driver approaches signal CA 149* if it's showing a single yellow you will be going into P1. (I can't remember if you get a 1 in the theater box indicator or not). For P4 via the through road you would get a single yellow (as I think CA 163 is approach controlled) and a 'T' in the theater box indicator.

For P4 via P1 you would get get a double yellow (can't remember if you got a 4 in the theater box or not).

I am not a driver, so some of what I have said may be wrong, as it's all from memory and observations over 25 years of travelling into Cambridge (and things may have changed).

* This is the signal on the Down Main opposite the Cambridge University Press building.

MikeWM said:
But I've not seen what they show for 'go through platform 1 and stop on 4', or whether there is some other way the driver is told to do this.

If memory serves me correctly, double yellow at CA 149

dk1 · 11 Mar 2024

Steve Harris said:
If memory serves me correctly, double yellow.

If arriving into platform 4 (up) or platform 1 (down) and the signal changes to single yellow (no indicator in the theatre box) then the driver should continue on to platform 1 or 4 respectively.

Steve Harris · 11 Mar 2024

dk1 said:
If arriving into platform 4 (up) or platform 1 (down) and the signal changes to single yellow (no indicator in the theatre box) then the driver should continue on to platform 1 or 4 respectively.

I'm guessing your talking about CA 162 (up) and CA 161 (down) ?

dk1 · 11 Mar 2024

Steve Harris said:
I'm guessing your talking about CA 162 (up) and CA 161 (down) ?

I sign the route but only ever remember down road signals CA171 onwards at down platform ends & CA180 running in.

MikeWM · 11 Mar 2024

They did this just now :-/ - 1900 to Birmingham switched from 7 to 4 literally as it was pulling into the station, despite both 7 and 8 being free and announcements only a couple of minutes earlier stating it was going from 7, and nothing else in sight using 7 or 8 or the approaches to them for at least the next 8 minutes. Cue staff shouting to move to 4, and a delayed departure while everyone trudges over the bridge.

I do wonder what they're playing at sometimes. If there is a reason behind last-second decisions like this, it certainly isn't apparent from eg. what I can see on Traksy.

louis97 · 11 Mar 2024

MikeWM said:
They did this just now :-/ - 1900 to Birmingham switched from 7 to 4 literally as it was pulling into the station, despite both 7 and 8 being free and announcements only a couple of minutes earlier stating it was going from 7, and nothing else in sight using 7 or 8 or the approaches to them for at least the next 8 minutes. Cue staff shouting to move to 4, and a delayed departure while everyone trudges over the bridge.

I do wonder what they're playing at sometimes. If there is a reason behind last-second decisions like this, it certainly isn't apparent from eg. what I can see on Traksy.

Its very much a possibility that the signaller was just in auto-pilot and thought it was booked 4. That seems to be what most of those services do during the day. If that was the case, any delay caused would be picked up by them and hopefully they won't get caught out again.

camflyer · 11 Mar 2024

Magdalia said:
Does this so called plan have any official status?

A south end footbridge has the same challenge as the existing north end footbridge: it is only possible by shortening a bay platform to make space for the stairs and lift on the old station side. The result would be platform 2 no longer able to take 160m 8 car trains.

The impact on the main entrance would not be great: a few people who live on the Romsey side of the line and walk to/from the station, and the students going to and from Hills Road College. I doubt that a Clifton Road entrance would have any public transport links. The only bus route that uses Cherry Hinton Road already goes via the main station entrance.

No official status as far as I am aware of. Just something that Rail Future has been campaigning for.

I believe the the recent works to the east side of the station for the Thameslink lines left passive provision for a eastern entrance.

MikeWM · 11 Mar 2024

louis97 said:
Its very much a possibility that the signaller was just in auto-pilot and thought it was booked 4. That seems to be what most of those services do during the day. If that was the case, any delay caused would be picked up by them and hopefully they won't get caught out again.

It's a slightly odd one, in that RTT has this specific service booked for platform 8, but I don't think I've *ever* seen it use 8. Usually it is on 7 - though of course a platform change from 8 to 7 is hardly an inconvenience, compared to a last-minute change to 4 or 1.

Also slightly oddly, RTT has it down as having called at platform 1 tonight, which it didn't.

The delay was only 2 minutes, so nothing terrible, but it didn't seem at all necessary, particularly as there were a number of people waiting to use this service who looked fairly elderly, some with luggage. It seems very unfair to make people rush with luggage across the bridge to a train that's already arrived and may leave at any second - or risk taking the lifts, which may or may not get them there in time to catch the service.

If it were a one-off or in a period of severe disruption, fair enough, but these last minute re-platformings, often for no good apparent reason, happen very regularly at Cambridge (hence the thread!).

louis97 · 11 Mar 2024

MikeWM said:
It's a slightly odd one, in that RTT has this specific service booked for platform 8, but I don't think I've *ever* seen it use 8. Usually it is on 7 - though of course a platform change from 8 to 7 is hardly an inconvenience, compared to a last-minute change to 4 or 1.

Also slightly oddly, RTT has it down as having called at platform 1 tonight, which it didn't.

The delay was only 2 minutes, so nothing terrible, but it didn't seem at all necessary, particularly as there were a number of people waiting to use this service who looked fairly elderly, some with luggage. It seems very unfair to make people rush with luggage across the bridge to a train that's already arrived and may leave at any second - or risk taking the lifts, which may or may not get them there in time to catch the service.

If it were a one-off or in a period of severe disruption, fair enough, but these last minute re-platformings, often for no good apparent reason, happen very regularly at Cambridge (hence the thread!).

Its possible the local platform plan has it booked to use 7, although I am not sure if this is a thing at Cambridge, obviously no big issue having that as an alteration every day with it being on the same platform island.

Unfortunately there is no perfect way of showing the platforms in this situation on RTT, I will have a look to see if it can be adjusted to at least show the correct platform when the train is there. You will then end up with all trains that use platform 1 showing platform 4 after departure, but at least when the trains are at the station it will show the correct platform until departure.

Shame it was not 3 minutes so it gets investigated and can be brought to the attention of the signallers to avoid it happening again (and also highlight the consequences of such re-platforms).

MikeWM · 11 Mar 2024

louis97 said:
Its possible the local platform plan has it booked to use 7, although I am not sure if this is a thing at Cambridge, obviously no big issue having that as an alteration every day with it being on the same platform island.

I think it is usually announced as a platform alteration when leaving from 7 (so presumably 'altered' from 8). Certainly it was announced at such multiple times tonight (before it was moved again at the last minute).

Unfortunately there is no perfect way of showing the platforms in this situation on RTT, I will have a look to see if it can be adjusted to at least show the correct platform when the train is there. You will then end up with all trains that use platform 1 showing platform 4 after departure, but at least when the trains are at the station it will show the correct platform until departure.

Ah, it's an issue with trains that pass through both 1 and 4? That's fairly obvious now you mention it, and probably explains some other things I've seen in RTT (specifically for Cambridge) that didn't appear quite right after-the-fact.

louis97 · 12 Mar 2024

MikeWM said:
I think it is usually announced as a platform alteration when leaving from 7 (so presumably 'altered' from 8). Certainly it was announced at such multiple times tonight (before it was moved again at the last minute).

Sounds like it could be booked 7 on the local platform plan then, this would require a manual alteration every day. I had a look last week and it seemed to use 7 all week. As its allocated 8 in the timetable it is still an alteration according to what is advertised. It sounds like the staff are well aware of the difference and know to announce it.

MikeWM said:
Ah, it's an issue with trains that pass through both 1 and 4? That's fairly obvious now you mention it, and probably explains some other things I've seen in RTT (specifically for Cambridge) that didn't appear quite right after-the-fact.

Yes! It happens at multiple locations, some its more of a problem than others. Edinburgh, Bristol Temple Meads and Gloucester all come to mind.

Bikeman78 · 12 Mar 2024

dk1 said:
If arriving into platform 4 (up) or platform 1 (down) and the signal changes to single yellow (no indicator in the theatre box) then the driver should continue on to platform 1 or 4 respectively.

Thanks for the info.

dk1 · 12 Mar 2024

Bikeman78 said:
Thanks for the info.

No worries.

camsig · 17 Mar 2024

Just a small bit of info regarding a lot of platform changes. we cannot get into platform 8 from the London end due to infrastructure problems which have been going on for many many weeks. The station staff deal with these changes very well. This believe it or not can have many challenges through the day and night for many reasons as the wtt does not cater for problems. The changes for platform four vice one will normally arise to get a late train through Cambridge to Ely without delaying a following train which is not noticed generally by passengers. we have the customers/toc in mind to minimise delays. Hope this helps a little. sometimes it can be a juggling act at the best of times. :rolleyes:

306024 · 17 Mar 2024

To be fair the work done by Cambridge box is excellent, it's a complex area to signal. There are many operational reasons why platforms get swapped that won't be obvious to Joe Public.

Cambridge platform changes

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