E-Tickets on dead phones - a possible solution?

The only time I've ever had problems with tickets has been ToD, where I've had an issue with my card not working - or tickets not being available/found. Oh, and issues when not every voucher prints.

I've never, ever, had an issue with an e-ticket.

Haywain said:

There doesn't need to be a central database of eTickets.

Click to expand...

No doubt true, but would it not be preferable?

It would help with a replacement for ToD-equivalent functionality for e-Tickets which customers book online (e.g. Advance tickets) and wish the railway to provide a printed ticket.

It has been said on these forums many times that customers will not require their own printers or smartphones.

What is the industry's proposal to allow non-self printed tickets in future?

Will it mean that customers wishing to have the railway print tickets for them will have to visit a TVM or ticket office (up to 12 weeks) in advance of travel, in order to do so?

If so, that really would be a step backwards in customer service.

Haywain said:

That's what the thread was about, before it got derailed by the usual arguments about how unfair it is to have eTickets at all. Do you think abolishing something as popular as eTickets is the solution, because that's what you seem to be arguing for?

Click to expand...

If you think that's what I'm arguing for, I'd suggest you haven't actually read my multiple posts (or are just looking to argue).

Since it apparently needs to be repeated again - what I'm actually asking for is for the railway to provide the facilities to print e-tickets in the way we can presently do today with ToD, or for the railway to change the rules so that passengers cannot be unfairly penalised for not showing an e-ticket due to device failure. I want the additional responsibility for e-tickets currently loaded onto passengers to be taken back into the railway's hands. Like I said, even McDonalds can figure out if you're telling the truth or not and they don't threaten to take you to court over the smallest infraction. I hope this was clear enough.

Meanwhile we're being told that updating TVMs to be able to print e-tickets on request is supposedly the IT megaproject of the century and other such nonsense.

kkong said:

What is the industry's proposal to allow non-self printed tickets in future?

Will it mean that customers wishing to have the railway print tickets for them will have to visit a TVM or ticket office (up to 12 weeks) in advance of travel, in order to do so?

Click to expand...

Yes, it appears so.

kkong said:

If so, that really would be a step backwards in customer service.

Click to expand...

For absolutely tiny numbers of people. The number of people who trust online sales but not online delivery is tiny.

kkong said:

No doubt true, but would it not be preferable?

Click to expand...

The minority are already catered for, and the choice has not been taken away. In due course it may or may not become more restricted but the existing eTicket system os satisfactory for the vast majority of people using it.

sor said:

Meanwhile we're being told that updating TVMs to be able to print e-tickets on request is supposedly the IT megaproject of the century and other such nonsense.

Click to expand...

No, you are being told that no such project exists.

Bletchleyite said:

For absolutely tiny numbers of people. The number of people who trust online sales but not online delivery is tiny.

Click to expand...

it's not a matter of trust.

Some people just prefer a printed ticket.

And as we have been repeatedly informed, such printed tickets will still be provided by the railway.

The question is if they will be provided for other than walk-up purchases (and if not, why not).

sor said:

for the railway to change the rules so that passengers cannot be unfairly penalised for not showing an e-ticket due to device failure.

Click to expand...

Should the rules also be changed for those unable to show a paper ticket?

kkong said:

No doubt true, but would it not be preferable?

Click to expand...

No, it's decentralised for a reason. There are a number of benefits to this, but one is that there is no single point of failure like we currently have with LSM.

sor said:

If you think that's what I'm arguing for, I'd suggest you haven't actually read my multiple posts (or are just looking to argue).

Since it apparently needs to be repeated again - what I'm actually asking for is for the railway to provide the facilities to print e-tickets in the way we can presently do today with ToD, or for the railway to change the rules so that passengers cannot be unfairly penalised for not showing an e-ticket due to device failure. I want the additional responsibility for e-tickets currently loaded onto passengers to be taken back into the railway's hands. Like I said, even McDonalds can figure out if you're telling the truth or not and they don't threaten to take you to court over the smallest infraction. I hope this was clear enough.

Meanwhile we're being told that updating TVMs to be able to print e-tickets on request is supposedly the IT megaproject of the century and other such nonsense.

Click to expand...

I so wish we had a 'like' button. I wholeheartedly agree.

You can do anything if there's a business case and someone willing to pay for it.

Why not have your ticket tied to your passport so you could show that? Or maybe a biometric scan (would stop ticket sharing). 'Touch here, thank you very much Jon - have a nice trip'.

Or facial recognition that opens the gates with no touching at all.

The railway isn't exactly swimming with money right now is it?

Bletchleyite said:

1. People also want to use e-tickets. It is a very convenient method of buying a ticket - no queueing at all, for one - because walking times are incredibly predictable it does mean one can time leaving home, buying on the way, and walk onto the platform as the train pulls in.

2. This is gross hyperbole.



I do think this should be possible, but in reality it'll likely be a choice between buy from a person/TVM on physical media or buy an e-ticket and provide the means of producing it yourself. Which my observations seem to suggest 95%+ of passengers are more than happy with.

Click to expand...

Until TfL sorts itself out vis a vis through tickets and outboundary travelcards, I think the clamouring for e-tickets is more of a provincial thing. CCSTs are pretty universal for leisure travel where it involves LU travel, down here. Part of the problem having a discussion about e-tickets is that there's a default inference that they are 'electronic' tickets full stop. Maybe the fact that they are (or should be ) printable by various means should be clarified by the TOCs, otherwise the potential difficulties that a demand to show them on board could bring, might reduce their take up, or even travelling by rail at all for some. Comparing what the latest smartphones will do when the battery is low doesn't necessarily support your anecdotal 95% as being a true figure for their full acceptance for electronic only use.

Perhaps the solution is that those who want a paper ticket printed for them by the guard could pay extra (e.g. £1 per ticket) and this could then be used to fund (or part fund) the thing that they want (ability to print eTickets on stating the postcode and origin / destination (or some other combination of data))...

cool110 said:

Road Traffic Act 1988 Section 164

Click to expand...

This is quite clear - you merely have to "produce" the licence. It does not criminalise not having it with you. The fact that a defence exists to it in law (the 7 day producer) merely means just this - it's not an offence to fail to produce it on request, as long as you do so later!

Likewise, if you enter a train without a valid ticket entitling travel, then that's an offence *except* if:

1. there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey or
2. there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket or
3. an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket

If one of those apply you haven't committed an offence, simple.

I honestly don’t think TVMs will be around forever so it’s pointless making one that prints eTickets from a code.

alistairlees said:

Perhaps the solution is that those who want a paper ticket printed for them by the guard could pay extra (e.g. £1 per ticket) and this could then be used to fund (or part fund) the thing that they want (ability to print eTickets on stating the postcode and origin / destination (or some other combination of data))...

Click to expand...

If you need a paper ticket go to the ticket office.

So you're sitting at home planning a trip, flexible about time and happy to stick to a specific train. Up come the Advance tiers, the cheapest one showing "One ticket left at this price". Could you reserve it there and then, and go to a ticket office to collect it? Or would you have to scoot down to a station and try to convince the staff member that the one ticket you want to buy is still showing as available on your phone? Some ticket staff seem to think they know better than the customer in front of them, or try to sell you something you didn't ask for.

For reference, if I go to the TGV ticket machines at Gare de Lyon and enter the booking reference and surname for my e-ticket reservation, it will happily print it on the same stock as a freshly bought ticket with zero fuss and zero extra charge.

It's not like this is some exotic functionality that is unheard of in human history. It is printing a 2-D barcode on some paper, which the railway already has the ability to do. There isn't really a reason not to do it other than ”Britain is terrible at procurement and specification” and “this country incentivises the railways being anti-customer even when people have paid handsomely for travel.”

jon0844 said:

as well as security validation

Click to expand...

the "security validation" of the data that's already directly visible to the user on their screen/printed copy?

lol... I'm outta here, I can't take this any more

cmovcc said:

the "security validation" of the data that's already directly visible to the user on their screen/printed copy?

Click to expand...

Actually, the validation isn't visible to the mark 1 human eye, which is why some fraudsters are using digitally altered eTickets and getting caught when the barcodes are scanned and found to be very different to the text details.

jon0844 said:

But I'm fine with a power bank or charger in my bag/pocket (which in reality I never need as I'm usually home after 10-12 hours with over 50% left).

Click to expand...

I usually need a power bank at the end of my day as it usually runs to 15% of less, even with a new phone. The map application on my phone consumes a huge amount of battery, and it is the thing which I use the most when taking transport as I have to plan my route and see where I need to get off.

Bletchleyite said:

Which means it needs 1% battery (it'll last ages on this level in flight mode) and for the screen to work. Other functions can be broken, e.g. you don't need the NFC, the audio functionality etc.

What you said was gross hyperbole.

Click to expand...

The closest I got to flat battery on my phone during a train journey was after an orienteering race which used MapRun 6 as the punching system (i.e. GPS orienteering). I forgot to bring my portable charger, however I had brought a spare phone. My primary phone with my Railcard loaded dropped to 2% so I took the SIM out and put it into my spare phone, which had 20% left at that moment. However, within minutes, it dropped to 5% as well as I checked bus times in a rural area, and I had to download my digital-only 26-30 Railcard onto it as well. By the time I boarded a train, one phone was already dead and the other was only 1% left, and I still needed to check which station I had to got off the train in order to get a bus home (I was not familiar with the transport network in that area - I lived at a place not close to railway stations and I parked my bike at West Hampstead and planned to take a fast train back to London to pick up the bike, but my journey was delayed and I missed the fast train, and waited for half an hour for the next slow train so I would like to get off the slow train at an intermediate station where I could take an express 232 bus direct home to make up time)

I tried to ask other passengers where I should take the 232 bus but no one knew, and I had to brought my phone out of flight mode at 1% to check TfL website. Unsurprisingly during the journey it went flat, and at the time I exited the train, both phones were dead, but fortunately there was no ticket inspection to check my Railcard and I used a paper ticket for that journey, as e-ticket wasn't available.

Wallsendmag said:

I honestly don’t think TVMs will be around forever so it’s pointless making one that prints eTickets from a code.


If you need a paper ticket go to the ticket office.

Click to expand...

I honestly don't think ticket offices will be around forever, as TfL has already got rid of them. We can't expect that everyone can buy tickets on mobile or print them out beforehand, so ticket machines will still always be needed. If you need a paper ticket go to the ticket machine. And in the future, these machines will sell tickets in a form of a code printed on a piece of paper without any magnetic, as magnetic is an outdated technology and prone to failure.

If we remove all ticket machines instead and force people to use the ticket office, we can feasibly expect dozens of people queuing at every major regional station.

cmovcc said:

the "security validation" of the data that's already directly visible to the user on their screen/printed copy?

lol... I'm outta here, I can't take this any more

Click to expand...

Can you decode the Aztec code with your eyes?

If you can then clearly the security has already been breached and we have a big problem...

However I wasn't even referring to that, rather the need for any new system introduced to pass the necessary security checks to make sure it is secure. And there's a cost for that.

freddie1729 said:

Probably not practical given the range of ticket retailers, but the ideal solution would be to have a way for the ticket inspector to look up your ticket on a central database. Just like if you go to a concert or board a plane and you lose your ticket/boarding pass.

Providing a charger is the least they could do though. I don't think any charge should be made, what would the purpose be other than to extort someone already in a sticky situation?

The assertion that people who run out of battery are not taking responsibility for themselves is ridiculous frankly. Technology can be unpredictable and phones can run out of battery unexpectedly.

Click to expand...

If a passenger relies on their phone for absolutely everything but chooses not to have a plan b (and wastes their battery power watching tik tok crap), that's on them.

Adam Williams said:

No, it's decentralised for a reason. There are a number of benefits to this, but one is that there is no single point of failure like we currently have with LSM.

Click to expand...

Interesting.

Do you know how the TOCs co-ordinate between themselves when passing Delay Repay claims involving eTickets between themselves (e.g. where a customer has sent the claim to one TOC but it should have been sent to another TOC)?

It sounds like there are multiple eTicket databases (one per retailer / back-end provider).

Does each TOC / retailer have access to all the other retailers' databases to validate the eTicket?

There definitely needs to be a halfway house between letting them off scot free and shouting "CRIMINAL OFFENCE, PROSECUTION!".

Maybe charged the full single, refundable on proof within X days that the passenger had purchased the correct ticket.

I really don't see why the Railway, as an industry, should be responsible for providing you with a charger, a printer or anything else.

If YOU choose to have your ticket in electronic form on YOUR device then YOU are responsible for making sure that YOUR device works. Nobody else.

If it is old and unreliable or you are out all day on a big trip and your battery won't last, then don't choose to have an electronic ticket, choose a different format. OR carry a battery pack so you can keep your phone charged up.

I really don't understand why this is so difficult. No one is forcing you to have an eticket on your phone.

Why can't people take some personal responsibility once in a while? Not everything is somebody else's fault or problem to sort out on your behalf.

Occasionally in life things go wrong unexpectedly. I get that. That can happen anywhere at any time in all walks of life. But there are often consequences to that, and sometimes you just have to suck it up and deal with those consequences.

Having said all that, the Railway should also be a bit less keen to jump to threaten prosecution in the first instance. There should really be some sort of "we'll let you off just this once" system like with forgotten railcards.

I truly cannot understand the people on this thread who cannot comprehend that a customer who’s already paid for a ticket then having to buy another one at considerable expense is a poor experience that’ll lead to people abandoning the railway. Come on. We’re talking Ryanair levels of customer service (but with the additional factor of being embarrassed in public & potentially prosecuted.)

I left the house at 0640 this morning and travelled from Halifax to London. Now (2034) on train home. My phone has had around 45 minutes charge during the day. Still has 42% power. Just why do some people here claim such problems with their phones that the rest of us seem to manage OK?

Via Bank said:

I truly cannot understand the people on this thread who cannot comprehend that a customer who’s already paid for a ticket then having to buy another one at considerable expense is a poor experience that’ll lead to people abandoning the railway. Come on. We’re talking Ryanair levels of customer service (but with the additional factor of being embarrassed in public & potentially prosecuted.)

Click to expand...

Not that I want to defend Ryanair - but their customer service is first rate compared to some of the suggestions going on in this thread.

While they might charge to print a boarding pass - at least they don't threaten to take you to court for it, nor do they receive masses of taxpayer subsidy and guaranteed inflation busting fare rises.

TUC said:

I left the house at 0640 this morning and travelled from Halifax to London. Now (2034) on train home. My phone has had around 45 minutes charge during the day. Still has 42% power. Just why do some people here claim such problems with their phones that the rest of us seem to manage OK?

Click to expand...

Different people have different makes and models of phone with different software and different battery capacity. Cheaper phones tend to have less battery capacity. Older (especially second- or third-hand) phones typically also run down quicker because batteries chemically age and lose capacity over time, and people can't always afford the service/parts fee to get their battery replaced. It can be affected by things like heat, and the weather (sunny day? people will need to turn the brightness up, running down the battery, to be able to see what's on the screen.) Finally, some people use their phones more just because they get more messages or calls, or maybe don't have the technical knowledge of how to turn off features to preserve their battery. That's life.

sor said:

Not that I want to defend Ryanair - but their customer service is first rate compared to some of the suggestions going on in this thread.

While they might charge to print a boarding pass - at least they don't threaten to take you to court for it, nor do they receive masses of taxpayer subsidy and guaranteed inflation busting fare rises.

Click to expand...

Well, quite. And I doubt it would be as onerous as some are making it out to be to implement. The railway already has the facility to print tickets ordered online, it's called TOD. No reason that couldn't print barcode tickets allowing you to have a paper copy of your e-ticket for peace of mind.

sor said:

Not that I want to defend Ryanair - but their customer service is first rate compared to some of the suggestions going on in this thread.

While they might charge to print a boarding pass - at least they don't threaten to take you to court for it, nor do they receive masses of taxpayer subsidy and guaranteed inflation busting fare rises.

Click to expand...

To be fair, I don't think 'pay when challenged' is a thing on Ryanair!

Via Bank said:

Different people have different makes and models of phone with different software and different battery capacity. Cheaper phones tend to have less battery capacity.

Click to expand...

A number of low-end phones often come with larger batteries than the mid to high-end models, because there are smaller image sensors (and less cameras in general) and a lot more simplicity. Maybe no stereo sound (so one less speaker), less antennas and so on.

It's quite common to get a 5,000mAh battery but some phones will come with 6,000mAh and with the assumption being that someone buying a cheaper phone isn't likely to be a heavy user for photography, gaming or media consumption, the battery probably lasts way longer than a phone with a Snapdragon 8 gen 3, 5,000 nits 2K resolution display and 4 or 5 cameras, encoding 4K 60fps video etc.

Even with phones supporting fast charging, you're likely looking at around 1600 charge cycles before the battery falls below 80% of capacity. In other words, nothing to really worry about in the real world.

If you've got a phone that is only lasting a few hours, it's time to change the battery or replace the phone IMO.