"Be prepared to vacate the seat or purchase a first class ticket"

AdamWW · 17 Mar 2024

ComUtoR said:
It could just as easily imply that I should buy a ticket using my phone.

Again, to me that would be a strange interpretation. Why tell someone to "be prepared" to do something rather than to just do it?

ComUtoR said:
Pay when challenged is not honest. It's a way to avoid paying.

Except when it's specifically allowed.

To me the announcement is giving that permission. Clearly not everyone thinks so and I may be in a minority, but it's not just me.

I think Weekend First used to work like that (though looking at LNER Weekend First and TFW Standard Plus it looks as if you're now supposed to find a guard and ask first).

And of course if you board a train at a station without ticket selling facilities you aren't required to chase down the guard - you just get on and should be prepared to pay when asked for a ticket (and, of course, failing that after getting off the train if possible).

RailUK Forums

ThameslinkUser · 17 Mar 2024

MrJeeves said:
There are 1st class weekend upgrades in the fares data but it's not clear if GTR still use these.

It's advertised on their website as being a current offer, and I'm sure I recently recall seeing the £5 cost being mentioned somewhere on NRE recently.

https://www.southernrailway.com/tickets/ticket-types-explained/first-class

Can I upgrade my existing train ticket?

Yes absolutely! If you’re travelling on a weekday you can upgrade to First Class from your Standard Class ticket by visiting the ticket office in the station. It’s important to remember that you must do this before you board one of our trains as the staff on the train cannot upgrade your ticket, but they can sell you a brand-new First-Class ticket.

Whilst if you're travelling on Southern trains at the weekend and public holidays; we offer a Weekend First Upgrade.

Southern Weekend First Upgrades are available from the On-Board Supervisor or Conductor on your train, subject to available space.

We kindly ask that you travel in the specified class carriage that is on your ticket, even if you’re planning on getting a First Class ticket when you’re on the train. We really don’t want you to get a Penalty Fare. Please note that wheelchair spaces are available within standard class accommodation only.

urbophile · 17 Mar 2024

RailWonderer said:
Weren't they going to crack down on pointless announcements? RP officers will do their job, an automated announcer isn't going to dissuade youths or whoever tries it on. Nobody accidentally sits in first (unless on GWR on the North Downs).

No but you might decide once you got on the train (maybe it was otherwise crowded) to sit in first class and be prepared to pay for an upgrade.

MrJeeves · 17 Mar 2024

ThameslinkUser said:
We kindly ask that you travel in the specified class carriage that is on your ticket, even if you’re planning on getting a First Class ticket when you’re on the train. We really don’t want you to get a Penalty Fare. Please note that wheelchair spaces are available within standard class accommodation only.

Click to expand...

Ah good, so I can't upgrade on 80% of services where the OBS seems to have disappeared into the ether!

ThameslinkUser · 17 Mar 2024

2 months ago, I'd have agreed with you, but GTR seem to have really upped their revenue protection as far as I can see. On my 1H services, I've been checked on pretty much any journey I've made for the last few weeks, not to mention the dedicated on-board RPOs now roaming around...

MrJeeves · 17 Mar 2024

ThameslinkUser said:
2 months ago, I'd have agreed with you, but GTR seem to have really upped their revenue protection as far as I can see. On my 1H services, I've been checked on pretty much any journey I've made for the last few weeks, not to mention the dedicated on-board RPOs now roaming around...

Interesting! I've not seen anyone on Thameslink recently, nor have I noticed any real increase in checks on the couple of Southern or GX trains I've taken in the past few weeks, but I'll keep an eye out.

Revilo · 17 Mar 2024

You can definitely still upgrade to Weekend First on GWR, by taking a seat and paying when asked: https://www.gwr.com/your-tickets/ways-to-save/weekend-upgrades.

I went all the way from Weston-super-Mare to Paddington without being asked for the upgrade fare, but it meant I couldn’t then use the lounge at Paddington.

Trainlog · 17 Mar 2024

I'm surprised that Southern still has first-class tickets on its trains, while Southeastern did away with its first class as fewer than 50 people used them.

https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/travel-information/on-board/first-class-travel

Train Maniac · 17 Mar 2024

Trainlog said:
I'm surprised that Southern still has first-class tickets on its trains, while Southeastern did away with its first class as fewer than 50 people used them.

https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/travel-information/on-board/first-class-travel

I suppose there may be more of a market for that sort of thing between Hove and London and the 2hr+ journey from Portsmouth Harbour to Victoria

Bletchleyite · 17 Mar 2024

ComUtoR said:
To believe this implies that you can "pay when challenged" is the same logic that gives rise to peanuts having a label that reads "this contains nuts"

It's very much not. The peanuts one seems silly, but is in fact because peanuts aren't nuts (they are legumes, i.e. beans) and it is necessary to warn that the pack contains/may contain actual nuts because they tend to be processed in the same factory.

However the slightly "sillier" ones (e.g. "contains milk" on a bottle of milk) are just because labels are rightly consistent and standardised, because allergen labelling clarity is important, as if people get it wrong they die (rather more serious than even a RoRA charge).

londonbridge · 17 Mar 2024

According to Trainline an offpeak first class ticket between Victoria and Gatwick is £22. The offpeak Oyster/contactless fare is £10.10. So if using Oyster/contactless is the upgrade £11.90 or would you have to buy a completely new ticket for £22, despite having tapped in, since contactless isn’t valid for first class travel

sheff1 · 17 Mar 2024

ComUtoR said:
Listening to the announcement in the second post. It's very clear that you have to have a first class ticket to use a first class seat.

Yes, but if you don't have a first class ticket it gives two options - "vacate the seat" or "be prepared to buy a first class ticket".

ComUtoR said:
It could just as easily imply that I should buy a ticket using my phone.

The second option is clearly giving permission to remain as long as you are prepared to buy a ticket. There is no suggestion that you must buy one now by phone (although there is nothing to stop you doing so) only that you must be prepared to buy one if someone appears to sell you one. It could certainly be taken to mean you will be sold a new ticket with no account taken of what you have already paid (which is what Southern says on their website), but makes no mention of any further 'penalty' above that.
The announcement could just as easily say "be liable to pay a Penalty Fare", but it does not.

70014IronDuke · 20 Mar 2024

43066 said:
What an absolute non issue to create a thread about.

Your opinion.

If the OP has correctly reported the facts, I find it an absolutely valid thread. It is a TOC completely giving a misleading and confusing message.

bramling · 20 Mar 2024

70014IronDuke said:
Your opinion.

If the OP has correctly reported the facts, I find it an absolutely valid thread. It is a TOC completely giving a misleading and confusing message.

Worth remembering this announcement was likely recorded the best part of 25 years ago, probably under Connex management. Whilst it’s probably remiss that it hasn’t been altered since, the premise of the thread does seem to be more that an outdated message is being played in a way which it probably wasn’t intended to be. Not the biggest issue in the world, but with the industry’s draconian reactions to these sorts of ticketing issues, I can see why it could be seen to be misleading.

MrJeeves · 20 Mar 2024

The announcement is one that has to be triggered manually by staff.

Perhaps the OBS on the train would have sold a new ticket instead of charging a penalty fare (if they are authorised collectors?) on this occasion.

Deepgreen · 20 Mar 2024

AdamWW said:
But what is the policy if someone is in first class with a second class ticket?

Penalty fare/prosecution as they're entitled to and I think as the signs on the trains say?

Or just having to buy a first class ticket as the announcement says?

I hope nobody is going to suggest it's OK to make an announcement saying that you'll just have to buy a new ticket if requested and then instead to issue a PF or worse?

I imagine the policy is to ask why they are travelling with a ticket that is at least 36 years old! More seriously, yes, this is a slightly worrying message - the strong implication is that those in first class without a first class ticket can just vacate the seat when challenged - without any penalty. In other words, stick it out and take your chances but the worst case for those who don't argue will be having to move. Not a great incentive not to do it in the first place.

This mess is of Southern's own making, by using the same rolling stock on virtually all their services. They fought to abolish first class but were made to keep it, so all they needed to do was to provide large, clear electronic signs on board telling passengers whether first is in operation or not. Decades later, the situation for novice passengers is no clearer.

ComUtoR said:
To believe this implies that you can "pay when challenged" is the same logic that gives rise to peanuts having a label that reads "this contains nuts"

It may surprise you that quite often, the biggest critics of the railway, are those that work here.

It DOES imply that, though, or that you'll have to move. It's just not the same as peanuts containing nuts at all. The railway has lost its old ability to communicate concisely and accurately, and now thinks that the wordier the message the better.

AdamWW · 20 Mar 2024

bramling said:
Worth remembering this announcement was likely recorded the best part of 25 years ago, probably under Connex management. Whilst it’s probably remiss that it hasn’t been altered since, the premise of the thread does seem to be more that an outdated message is being played in a way which it probably wasn’t intended to be. Not the biggest issue in the world, but with the industry’s draconian reactions to these sorts of ticketing issues, I can see why it could be seen to be misleading.

Well the original premise was that someone who has been using these trains on and off for over ten years and hasn't heard it before wondered if it was due to a change in policy.

It was on a 377 which I think post-date Connex.

bramling · 20 Mar 2024

AdamWW said:
Well the original premise was that someone who has been using these trains on and off for over ten years and hasn't heard it before wondered if it was due to a change in policy.

It was on a 377 which I think post-date Connex.

I think both the 375 and 377 fleets have the same set of announcements recorded under Connex, or at least the bulk of the messages are original - some may have been changed over the years, but not this one it seems!

jfowkes · 20 Mar 2024

There is a discrepancy between the wording as @AdamWW describes it and the recording that @MrJeeves provided.

In the OPs wording, it is "Be prepared to vacate the seat or purchase a first class ticket".

In the recording it is "Please vacate the seat or be prepared to purchase a first class ticket".

The announcement in the recording applies the "be prepared" part to the payment of a first class fare only and make it clear that you can't just want to be challenged then move. You have to move immediately.

AdamWW · 20 Mar 2024

jfowkes said:
There is a discrepancy between the wording as @AdamWW describes it and the recording that @MrJeeves provided.

In the OPs wording, it is "Be prepared to vacate the seat or purchase a first class ticket".

You can put that down to imperfect memory.

It was almost certainly the recording linked to.

But while yes, the meanings certainly are different, it doesn't change the discrepancy of being told you can buy a new ticket and the fact that in fact you are probably liable for a penalty fare or prosecution.

ComUtoR · 20 Mar 2024

Deepgreen said:
The railway has lost its old ability to communicate concisely and accurately, and now thinks that the wordier the message the better.

Culture has changed from the olden days. People want to be spoon fed like little children or want to find a loophole in everything so that they can try and get away with doing something they know is wrong. The messages need to be wordier because of posts like this. Unless it says every single tiny minutiae, someone is going to say "well it doesn't..."

This could easily be resolved by removing the message entirely. Do you really need a message to say you need a ticket to sit in first class ? What if there was no message, would that also imply that its a free for all ?

bramling · 20 Mar 2024

ComUtoR said:
Culture has changed from the olden days. People want to be spoon fed like little children or want to find a loophole in everything so that they can try and get away with doing something they know is wrong. The messages need to be wordier because of posts like this. Unless it says every single tiny minutiae, someone is going to say "well it doesn't..."

This could easily be resolved by removing the message entirely. Do you really need a message to say you need a ticket to sit in first class ? What if there was no message, would that also imply that its a free for all ?

The message is clearly an old one which isn’t fully relevant to today, if it ever was entirely accurate.

However I do agree with the general point that - given the railway’s rather draconian propensity for being able to do pretty severe prosecutions for this sort of thing - that this message shouldn’t be being broadcast. There’s a big difference between being “prepared to purchase a 1st class ticket” and a potential RORA prosecution.

AdamWW · 20 Mar 2024

ComUtoR said:
Culture has changed from the olden days. People want to be spoon fed like little children or want to find a loophole in everything so that they can try and get away with doing something they know is wrong. The messages need to be wordier because of posts like this. Unless it says every single tiny minutiae, someone is going to say "well it doesn't..."

This could easily be resolved by removing the message entirely. Do you really need a message to say you need a ticket to sit in first class ? What if there was no message, would that also imply that its a free for all ?

No.

It's got nothing to do with culture changing or people demanding all the minutiae to be covered.

It's not a case of "Well it doesn't say...." It's that what it does say is seriously misleading.

If you are going to have a message telling people the consequences of sitting in first class without an appropriate ticket, it has to describe the actual consequences.

If you want to be able to give people penalty fares for doing so, you shouldn't make announcements saying they can just buy a new ticket.

Remove that bit from the announcement.
Replace it with a threat of penalty fares or prosecution.
Remove the whole announcement.
Any of those is fine.

ComUtoR · 20 Mar 2024

AdamWW said:
If you are going to have a message telling people the consequences of sitting in first class without an appropriate ticket, it has to describe the actual consequences.

Should it mention a possible criminal record ?

AdamWW · 20 Mar 2024

Deepgreen said:
I imagine the policy is to ask why they are travelling with a ticket that is at least 36 years old!

Well you've got me there. The UK has to be different....

Although I can think of one circumstance in which someone could legitimately be using a second class ticket in the UK.
(And have in fact done so myself).

bramling · 20 Mar 2024

ComUtoR said:
Should it mention a possible criminal record ?

Definitely. A RORA prosecution is extremely serious.

Bletchleyite · 20 Mar 2024

bramling said:
Definitely. A RORA prosecution is extremely serious.

It's a criminal offence carrying a record which is certainly to be avoided, but "extremely serious" is I think pushing it. It's considerably less serious than even minor theft.

bramling · 20 Mar 2024

Bletchleyite said:
It's a criminal offence carrying a record which is certainly to be avoided, but "extremely serious" is I think pushing it. It's considerably less serious than even minor theft.

For most people the notion of getting a criminal record for sitting in the wrong type of seat (especially on Southern where literally all you get is an antimacassar!) would be seen to be extremely serious, certainly very disproportionate. Your average Joe Public would be expecting to get something akin to a parking fine.

Deepgreen · 21 Mar 2024

ComUtoR said:
Culture has changed from the olden days. People want to be spoon fed like little children or want to find a loophole in everything so that they can try and get away with doing something they know is wrong. The messages need to be wordier because of posts like this. Unless it says every single tiny minutiae, someone is going to say "well it doesn't..."

This could easily be resolved by removing the message entirely. Do you really need a message to say you need a ticket to sit in first class ? What if there was no message, would that also imply that its a free for all ?

Agreed, BUT, the need for this is from Southern's use of stock on all of its workings that includes first class accommodation, whereas their suburban workings don't have first class ticketing. Therefore there needs to be some form of message that tells people when they can or cannot use first class with a standard class ticket. It is a problem of the railway's own making. Therefore, as I said earlier, there need to be screens on all units that clearly state whether first is in operation (and on other TOCs' stock with a similar issue, such as GWR) and a campaign to educate passengers about it. The usual half-baked mess has remained, though.

Bletchleyite · 21 Mar 2024

bramling said:
For most people the notion of getting a criminal record for sitting in the wrong type of seat (especially on Southern where literally all you get is an antimacassar!) would be seen to be extremely serious, certainly very disproportionate. Your average Joe Public would be expecting to get something akin to a parking fine.

Or at least a "record that isn't really a record" like a speeding conviction that is ignored by most things except motor insurance and risk assessment for business driving.

"Be prepared to vacate the seat or purchase a first class ticket"

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Can I upgrade my existing train ticket?