ASLEF strikes 5th-8th April weekend

whoosh · 20 Mar 2024

Sly Old Fox said:
No, I categorically don’t expect anybody to accept these conditions. They are utter ****e.

But after two years of uncertainty during the pandemic, ASLEF should’ve tried to grow the railway for a couple of years. A couple of really solid years of performance to get people travelling again, and revenue flowing again. If ASLEF went to the RDG for a payrise now after five years of not having one, but having done everything possible to keep the railways going, I imagine they’d get one almost immediately.

It's not up to ASLEF to grow the railway.

However, at Elizabeth Line, London Overground, ALL the Freight Operating Companies, ALL the Open Access Companies, Merseyrail, Scotrail, and Transport for Wales, those that are responsible for growing their part of railways are doing just that. Tyne & Wear Metro, Pre Metro Operations (Stourbridge Shuttle). Let's not forget those.

And funnily enough, negotiating with ASLEF is part of it.

ALL had pay rises that were below RPI (except 2021 Elizabeth Line which was RPI, and the final part of TfW's multi-year deal, which will be RPI - next April I believe, so when inflation has settled down) but believe the politics, and drivers are greedy.

TfW's also contained moving Sundays into the working week and a whole load of other productivity. But believe the politics and apparently, drivers don't want any changes to their 'Spanish Practices'.

By the way, how can Mark Harper claim the last offer was a "fair and reasonable" one, when it was worse than the previous one? Why has no journalist challenged him on this?

RailUK Forums

Sly Old Fox · 21 Mar 2024

Ashfordian6 said:
The Government would have offered 2% in your scenario. Then what would have been the next move from ASLEF?

A 2% payrise and no strike days would put drivers in a significantly better financial position than they are now. Thousands of pounds better off.

JonathanH · 21 Mar 2024

Is this still the 2022 pay increase that is being argued about, or is 2023 and 2024 expected to all get consolidated in one increase? Is anything happening with other unions about 2023 and 2024 right now?

infobleep · 21 Mar 2024

Snow1964 said:
The fact many media and news reports refer to it as " ...striking again.... " as though it is boring regular occurrence, like PM saying economy is improving

rather than saying something like taking action due to diabolical change of terms

But the media don't speak for the population at large, just those who they think will buy or reas their newspapers.

MikeWM said:
Almost 2 years of uncertainty over covid restrictions, then we had about a whole 4 months of 'normality' (though in many cases on still significantly-reduced timetables) before the strikes started in June 2022.

Of course the covid restrictions weren't the fault of the railway, but the last thing we needed after those 2 years was a further 2 years of uncertainty due to strikes.

After this amount of time, I've certainly adapted to doing significantly fewer things at weekends that require rail travel, and given how long this has gone on for I fully expect these changes in my habits to be permanent, even when normality finally breaks out, assuming it ever does.

I have no changed any of my habits due to these series of strikes. Yes some plans have been disrupted but mostly they haven't.

Perhaps being a glass half full person means I'm more likely to carry on and hope for the best. In most cases I travel as their aren't any strikes.

Bald Rick said:
Strikers are losing public support, admits rail baron Whelan

Aslef chief admits backing has dropped by one third as dispute shows no sign of resolution

www.telegraph.co.uk

Accepting it’s the Telegraph, so will have a certain way of putting things; also behind a paywall. But essentially it says that public support has fallen from 75% to 50%.

I have heard that although their commentary pieces might be wacky at times, their journalism can be good for news reports. That was occurring to James O'Brien on LBC and he's very left.

No idea about polls in The Telegraph though.

baz962 · 21 Mar 2024

Kite159 said:
Ah the good old "we worked through Covid" card. Just like many other workers who were also on the 'front line'.

Did those other many workers get pay increases. Did they have a complete trashing of their terms and conditions. As has been said many times we would accept a reasonable increase , just not an erosion of our terms and conditions.

Krokodil · 21 Mar 2024

Sly Old Fox said:
ASLEF should’ve tried to grow the railway for a couple of years.

How is ASLEF supposed to grow the railway? It's a bit difficult when the government keeps forcing operators to off-lease much-needed rolling stock.

Bald Rick · 21 Mar 2024

whoosh said:
It's not up to ASLEF to grow the railway.

It kind of is, and its in their interests to.

It‘s the responsibility of everyone employed by ‘the railway’ to grow it, in the sense of making it better for passengers and freight users. I don’t think anyone employed by the railway will disagree with that, or if they do they need to find a new career.

The union is the collective will of its membership. It’s membership has a responsibility to grow the railway...

A0wen · 21 Mar 2024

Krokodil said:
How is ASLEF supposed to grow the railway? It's a bit difficult when the government keeps forcing operators to off-lease much-needed rolling stock.

Except most of that rolling stock wasn't "much needed" or was unsuitable for the uses people on these boards claim.

And HSTs are clapped out 40+ year old trains, so definitely the answer - and the unions are now starting to raise safety concerns about them.

The issue is how to spread demand more evenly over the day - for every train that is full and standing, the network is running 2 or 3 which are carting fresh air around - that's the issue to resolve and that's where growth can come from.

mike57 · 21 Mar 2024

43066 said:
There’s still the chance of settlement before the election

Call me out for being cynical, but I think the current government are leaving as many 'banana skins' for the incoming government as they can, and when a settlement is reached after the election they can then play the inevitable 'Labour caving to the Unions' card (HS2 is another rail related one, as well as others outside the rail industry). Beyond the spin they know they have lost the upcoming election, the more hardheaded ones behind the scenes will be looking ahead to try and get back in after 5 years, and the easiest way is to leave issues which will look for bad for the new government.

And to those who say I am being to harsh in my assesment, if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck then it probably is a duck.

What is sad about all this is that I would regard myself as a conservative (with a small C) but the current government are up there with one of the most ineffectve and disorganised within my memory, which is 60 years ish.

Unfortunately both rail users and workers (i.e. ASLEF in this case) are the losers.

Falcon1200 · 21 Mar 2024

43066 said:
Yet we were told that by posters on here for almost a year in relation to the RMT, and the position did change.

Fair enough, but unfortunately there is no sign of the Government changing their position regarding Drivers.

43066 said:
I do care about being able to plan my life outside work, though, and preserving my own mental and physical health. Which is what this dispute is about.

That for me is what ASLEF should have been focussing their campaign on; Obviously pay is an issue too but the additional disruption to the work/life balance of a group of people already working extremely unsocial hours should have formed, IMHO, the main thrust of their case. Were I still at work, I would have been as unhappy as Drivers with such changes to T&Cs.

DMckduck97 · 21 Mar 2024

Train_manager said:
I know of at least 3 drivers sacked. All widely reported in the media. Have a Google.

Plus 2 drivers sacked not reported in the media.

Seems to be a lack of key information on apart from what the incidents were. Could you point in the right direction?

I'm sure there is much more to these stories than simply "I tripped the grids for the first time and got sacked"

mike57 · 21 Mar 2024

43066 said:
preserving my own mental and physical health.

And if I were ASLEF I would be looking to highlight arrangements in other safety critical industries, and the negative impact that not managing it or not taking it into account has on overall safety, with both examples of how not to do it, and also best practice.

I also believe that a well paid and content workforce is essential in any safety critical role.

ComUtoR · 21 Mar 2024

Bald Rick said:
The union is the collective will of its membership. It’s membership has a responsibility to grow the railway...

Why ? Purely playing Devil's Advocate here, but why do we ask this of the Railway but not for someone who works in Tesco ? What makes the railway so special that we treat it as more than just a job. I come in, earn my crust, and go home. The company has shown me zero loyalty and does nothing to improve my workplace or terms and conditions. To them; I am just a number. In essence. What has the ~~Romans~~ ever done for me ?

DMckduck97 said:
Seems to be a lack of key information on apart from what the incidents were. Could you point in the right direction?

I'm sure there is much more to these stories than simply "I tripped the grids for the first time and got sacked"

You cannot know the reasons why every single Driver or staff member across the entire network has been sacked. To suggest that nobody has lost their job after their first incident is frankly, naive. Personally, I know at least one. I know some who lost their jobs without having an incident.

Train_manager · 21 Mar 2024

Bald Rick said:
It kind of is, and its in their interests to.

It‘s the responsibility of everyone employed by ‘the railway’ to grow it, in the sense of making it better for passengers and freight users. I don’t think anyone employed by the railway will disagree with that, or if they do they need to find a new career.

The union is the collective will of its membership. It’s membership has a responsibility to grow the railway...

I disagree.

I'm paid to drive a train. Nothing more, nothing less.

There is NO good will left in me !!!!!!!!!

Bletchleyite · 21 Mar 2024

Train_manager said:
I disagree.

I'm paid to drive a train. Nothing more, nothing less.

There is NO good will left in me !!!!!!!!!

In most jobs if you hate your employer that much it's time to move on. The difficulty with the railway is that it's such a niche skillset you effectively can't.

Ashfordian6 · 21 Mar 2024

Bletchleyite said:
In most jobs if you hate your employer that much it's time to move on. The difficulty with the railway is that it's such a niche skillset you effectively can't.

In most jobs there is good will on both sides. It certainly looks like this is not the case when reading about this situation with the drivers in this dispute...

High Dyke · 21 Mar 2024

greyman42 said:
It is not an argument, it is a fact.

I accept that. It's a case of telling the working population that there's no money for pay rises without sacrificing terms and conditions. But allow themselves a generous 'no-strings' pay award, and also pay the profiteering TOC's whether they run a service or not. If it wasn't for the English government interfering, then I'm sure these disputes may have been resolved a lot sooner or even better.

Mat17 · 21 Mar 2024

It's about time politicians had to have T&C changes - call it modernisation or greater efficiencies in the workforce to increased productivity for the shareholders (i.e. the voters) - then the payrises are awarded as they sell.out their terms. No need for a bar in Westminster for example - canteen maybe.

Krokodil · 21 Mar 2024

Bald Rick said:
It kind of is, and its in their interests to.

It‘s the responsibility of everyone employed by ‘the railway’ to grow it, in the sense of making it better for passengers and freight users. I don’t think anyone employed by the railway will disagree with that, or if they do they need to find a new career.

The union is the collective will of its membership. It’s membership has a responsibility to grow the railway...

Growing the business isn't in ASLEF's gift. It's the government who have refused to allow the operators to lease enough units to carry more passengers, it's the government who cut APD, it's the government who have cancelled chunks HS2 and just maintain punitive fares to price passengers off...

Bletchleyite said:
In most jobs if you hate your employer that much it's time to move on. The difficulty with the railway is that it's such a niche skillset you effectively can't.

Though some are moving on, whether to non-DfT TOCs, to FOCs, or simply into retirement.

Railwayowl80 · 21 Mar 2024

But also it’s important to not just assume you hate your employer just because you turn up and then go home I know loads of drivers that literally do that and couldn’t care less how many carriages or people there taking there paid to work and drive that train and are good at it.

mike57 · 21 Mar 2024

Mat17 said:
It's about time politicians had to have T&C changes - call it modernisation or greater efficiencies in the workforce to increased productivity for the shareholders (i.e. the voters)

A bit off topic, but...
I would not do an MPs job for the base salary they earn (about £86K pa I think), but of course that is then enhanced by 'expenses' which will then make it more attractive, and there is the opportunity for outside 'work' which being an MP opens the door to which makes it far more attractive.

Personally I would remove expenses, pay them a much higher base salary, and forbid them from having any 'outside interests' during their term in office, so that their focus is firmly on their electorate. If they then want to live the high life thats fine, if they want live frugally thats fine. They get one member of staff, allocated from a pool to assist with admin and day to day work and paid for, anything else they pay out of their own pocket.

PupCuff · 21 Mar 2024

DMckduck97 said:
Seems to be a lack of key information on apart from what the incidents were. Could you point in the right direction?

I'm sure there is much more to these stories than simply "I tripped the grids for the first time and got sacked"

Quite.

In howevermany years I've seen far more Drivers lose their jobs because of things like inappropriate behaviour at work, falsifying sick leave etc than the tiny number who have left the role following safety incidents.

Perpetuating the myth that safety incidents will get you sacked just means people are more likely to try and cover them up or lie about them. It's unhelpful.

Efini92 · 21 Mar 2024

PupCuff said:
Quite.

In howevermany years I've seen far more Drivers lose their jobs because of things like inappropriate behaviour at work, falsifying sick leave etc than the tiny number who have left the role following safety incidents.

Perpetuating the myth that safety incidents will get you sacked just means people are more likely to try and cover them up or lie about them. It's unhelpful.

I can count on one hand how many drivers I’ve actually seen lose their jobs. It’s very rare and I can only think of one that lost it though safety incidents.

vicbury · 21 Mar 2024

ComUtoR said:
Why ? Purely playing Devil's Advocate here, but why do we ask this of the Railway but not for someone who works in Tesco ? What makes the railway so special that we treat is as more than just a job. I come in, earn my crust, and go home. The company has shown me zero loyalty and does nothing to improve my workplace or terms and conditions. To them; I am just a number. In essence. What has the ~~Romans~~ ever done for me

Sorry, but I worked for Sainsbury's for seven years and it was instilled in absolutely every member of staff that they had a responsibility to grow sales:

Warehouse staff ensuring products were in the right place to be located for the shop floor.
Shop floor staff ensuring products were correctly and tidily displayed.
Cleaning staff ensuring the store was hygienic and welcoming.
Price control staff ensuring that tickets were correctly labelled and marketing correctly displayed.
Customer service staff ensuring that customers received great service.

All of the above was instilled in us within the understanding that doing it right would grow sales. And it did.

In every revenue earning organisation I have ever worked, it has been the responsibility of all to grow sales. Particularly those on higher salaries.

Krokodil · 21 Mar 2024

vicbury said:
Sorry, but I worked for Sainsbury's for seven years and it was instilled in absolutely every member of staff that they had a responsibility to grow sales:

Warehouse staff ensuring products were in the right place to be located for the shop floor.

Shop floor staff ensuring products were correctly and tidily displayed.

Cleaning staff ensuring the store was hygienic and welcoming.

Price control staff ensuring that tickets were correctly labelled and marketing correctly displayed.

Customer service staff ensuring that customers received great service.

All of the above was instilled in us within the understanding that doing it right would grow sales. And it did.

In every revenue earning organisation I have ever worked, it has been the responsibility of all to grow sales. Particularly those on higher salaries.

What about the HGV drivers? Or were they just told to get their load from A to B in a safe and timely fashion?

infobleep · 21 Mar 2024

Bletchleyite said:
In most jobs if you hate your employer that much it's time to move on. The difficulty with the railway is that it's such a niche skillset you effectively can't.

I am belligerent and if I like a job but didn't like my manager, I would stay. Hopefully I would outlast my manager.

I have in fact outlasted someone who was difficult in a work place. In the end they were being difficult with people higher up too and they eventually left.

So someone who does not like the company they work for but likes their job may not want to leave on that basis

mikeb42 · 21 Mar 2024

vicbury said:
In every revenue earning organisation I have ever worked, it has been the responsibility of all to grow sales. Particularly those on higher salaries.

Absolutely this. Someone who works for Tesco will have this asked of them. All the time. Right from the lowest paid employee up to the top. As is the case in every other organisation that lives or dies by its ability to persuade someone to buy its products or services for at least as much as they cost to provide.

One of the issues with the railway is the apparent disconnect this attitude betrays between the service (or lack of) on offer and everyone's continued ability to make a living providing it. That disconnect is currently facilitated by proportionately vast wads of public money. Most of its workforce are thus de-facto public servants - incompatible with strident assertions that public opinion is irrelevant. "The public" is picking up the tab for whatever the govt, as our agent, does or doesn't accept - or ends up costing us by refusing to negotiate sensibly for ideological reasons.

For the record, the proposed T&C changes seem wildly draconian to the point where it's not hard to see why they're completely unacceptable.

DMckduck97 · 21 Mar 2024

PupCuff said:
Quite.

In howevermany years I've seen far more Drivers lose their jobs because of things like inappropriate behaviour at work, falsifying sick leave etc than the tiny number who have left the role following safety incidents.

Perpetuating the myth that safety incidents will get you sacked just means people are more likely to try and cover them up or lie about them. It's unhelpful.

Its the sensationalising to the everyday Joe claims like this which have always irked me.

It's hard enough getting rid of the ones who will do whatever they can to not work, nevermind this idea that crew get sacked for incidents that have not been or attempted to be covered up.

Krokodil · 21 Mar 2024

mikeb42 said:
One of the issues with the railway is the apparent disconnect this attitude betrays between the service (or lack of) on offer and everyone's continued ability to make a living providing it.

After the government has spent the last few years lobbing dung at railway staff - drivers in particular - is it any wonder that a "couldn't care less" attitude develops. A succession of hatchet jobs in the right-leaning press and ill-informed (or knowingly false) statements from ministers will grind people down.

Jamesrob637 · 21 Mar 2024

What's the betting still no minimum service level this time?

Pathetic if so, forgivable if something does run.

ASLEF strikes 5th-8th April weekend

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