Using mums Oyster card

Hi there ,
I got a quick question as I’m quite worried.
I have been catch by tlf revenue using my mum card she open 10 days ago but also my brother was using sometime the same card in same journey. They didn’t put a fine they deceives to investigate as the card was not tap on the way in but open the bares on the way out .
From my self has been used only 3 times all together, but my brother has used it round 6-8 times . I’m quite worried because is going to be any criminal records ? How much will be the fine also any ideas . Any ideas or experiences are welcome.
Thanks marika

What is your age and your brother's age?

we are over 18

furlong said:

What is your age and your brother's age?

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We are over 18 but will they know that he is my brother

Then the normal situation is that if you were caught red-handed, they will prosecute you for that one occasion. There are only rare circumstances when they seem not to do this (e.g. if they think the court would be sympathetic given the full circumstances such as when a genuine medical condition might have been believed to have played a part in the offence).

If their investigation discovers other suspicious journeys as you are suggesting you think it might, they are likely to ask you to admit to the court that you also made those journeys and to pay the outstanding fares for them as an alternative to prosecuting you for those journeys as well. If you deny making the other journeys then they may bring further charges against you if they find sufficient evidence which would mean you could end up with multiple criminal convictions instead of just one.

The total amount to pay in the end is usually several hundred pounds but your income is taken into account and you usually get the option of negotiating paying it over a period of time instead of all at once if you can't afford it.

The same goes for your brother - it's not clear from your message whether or not they know he is involved. For using a 60+ card the court would normally impose nothing worse than a fine BUT note carefully that if you pretend to have made journeys that they ask you about that were actually made by your brother, and they discover this later in the process (perhaps from CCTV), then the court gains a real option to impose a prison sentence (for the separate offence of lying to protect your brother).

One thing you should do now is write down a note privately for yourself with everything you can remember about what happened when you were caught, who said what etc. The whole process now could take a few months and human memory is poor and you may forget or misremember! It helps you to stop thinking about it endlessly if you know that everything is written in a note that you can use to remind yourself later.

Then all you can do for now is wait for the letter to arrive and see what it says and make sure you always pay the correct fare from now on so you can at least tell them honestly that you have learned your lesson and it will never happen again.

Thank you so much for explain in all this.can I just not pay the rent penalty and that’s it with out any court taken or anything ?

Do you have any paperwork from TfL? If you do, please post it here to help us to help you.

Cover up your name and address and anything that could identify you.

marika said:

Thank you so much for explain in all this.can I just not pay the rent penalty and that’s it with out any court taken or anything ?

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No, Transport for London usually prosecute, especially for cases where free passes have been used by the wrong person, they treat that very seriously.

When you say “she open 10 days ago”, do you mean that she had only just received the card? Did she know that you were both using it?

notmyrealname said:

Do you have any paperwork from TfL? If you do, please post it here to help us to help you.

Cover up your name and address and anything that could identify you.

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Thank you so much for the prompted response,I don’t have the letter yet from the tfl. However when they asked me in the report I admitted that I know. The card is just opened 10 days ago and I have used it only in 3 occasions. In the occasion that they catch me it wasn’t any entry from the journey as the bars was open and they couldn’t see it. I quite worried as I already accept it why the fine shouldn’t come straight away without explanation later.
Thanks Marika

If your mother only got her 60+ card 10 days ago and already you have used it 3 times and your brother used it 6 to 8 times, then that suggests very deliberate misuse. TFL usually always prosecutr and especially in cases like this when there clearly is no mistake or confusion.
So a fine and a criminal prosecution is likely. For now, please can you post any paperwork here for us to see, cover up your name and address, and you will get help. As it seems English is not your first language, we can help you get any wording on letters back to TFL correct. But without seeing the paperwork there is little we can help with.

ikcdab said:

If your mother only got her 60+ card 10 days ago and already you have used it 3 times and your brother used it 6 to 8 times, then that suggests very deliberate misuse. TFL usually always prosecutr and especially in cases like this when there clearly is no mistake or confusion.

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Yes, this is gross misuse. Immediately upon receipt the card was being passed around for fare evasion. I cannot see that TfL will do anything other than prosecute the OP for this very flagrant offending, and withdraw the pass also.

If the OP is not a citizen, they may wish to seek professional immigration advice.

Welcome to the forum!

Transport for London take misuse of Freedom Passes very seriously and a prosecution under the TfL Bylaws is the usual outcome.

It sounds as though you've been sent a Verification Letter by TfL. This asks you to confirm or deny the incident and ask you to give any mitigating circumstances which you would like them to take into account when deciding how to proceed.

I suggest you mention the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and TfL's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

TfL generally do not offer out of court settlements although in some very limited circumstances they have been known to issue a final warning instead of prosecution. Prosecutions are normally done through what is called a Single Justice Procedure Notice. This means that if you plead guilty it is not necessary to attend court in person (unless you choose to do), you simply return the form to the court with any mitigation you want them to tae into account and they will write to you with the details of the fine you have to pay.

If you are prosecuted and plead guilty (or are found guilty by the court) then you will have to pay:

- A fine based on your income (normally discounted by a third if you plead guilty at the earliest opportunity)
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine
- A contribution towards TfL's costs
- Compensation for the fares avoided

If you are found guilty then this is a criminal conviction. If you are prosecuted under the TfL Bylaws (which is what normally happens) then the conviction isn't normally recorded on the Police National Computer and won't normally appear on Basic DBS checks although we always advise people to be honest when asked if they have a conviction.

Here's a link to TfL's Revenue Enforcement & Prosecutions Policy which you might find worth reading:

Hadders said:

Welcome to the forum!

Transport for London take misuse of Freedom Passes very seriously and a prosecution under the TfL Bylaws is the usual outcome.

It sounds as though you've been sent a Verification Letter by TfL. This asks you to confirm or deny the incident and ask you to give any mitigating circumstances which you would like them to take into account when deciding how to proceed.

I suggest you mention the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and TfL's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

TfL generally do not offer out of court settlements although in some very limited circumstances they have been known to issue a final warning instead of prosecution. Prosecutions are normally done through what is called a Single Justice Procedure Notice. This means that if you plead guilty it is not necessary to attend court in person (unless you choose to do), you simply return the form to the court with any mitigation you want them to tae into account and they will write to you with the details of the fine you have to pay.

If you are prosecuted and plead guilty (or are found guilty by the court) then you will have to pay:

- A fine based on your income (normally discounted by a third if you plead guilty at the earliest opportunity)
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine
- A contribution towards TfL's costs
- Compensation for the fares avoided

If you are found guilty then this is a criminal conviction. If you are prosecuted under the TfL Bylaws (which is what normally happens) then the conviction isn't normally recorded on the Police National Computer and won't normally appear on Basic DBS checks although we always advise people to be honest when asked if they have a conviction.

Here's a link to TfL's Revenue Enforcement & Prosecutions Policy which you might find worth reading:

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/revenue-enforcement-and-prosecutions-policy.pdf

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Hadders said:

Welcome to the forum!

Transport for London take misuse of Freedom Passes very seriously and a prosecution under the TfL Bylaws is the usual outcome.

It sounds as though you've been sent a Verification Letter by TfL. This asks you to confirm or deny the incident and ask you to give any mitigating circumstances which you would like them to take into account when deciding how to proceed.

I suggest you mention the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and TfL's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

TfL generally do not offer out of court settlements although in some very limited circumstances they have been known to issue a final warning instead of prosecution. Prosecutions are normally done through what is called a Single Justice Procedure Notice. This means that if you plead guilty it is not necessary to attend court in person (unless you choose to do), you simply return the form to the court with any mitigation you want them to tae into account and they will write to you with the details of the fine you have to pay.

If you are prosecuted and plead guilty (or are found guilty by the court) then you will have to pay:

- A fine based on your income (normally discounted by a third if you plead guilty at the earliest opportunity)
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine
- A contribution towards TfL's costs
- Compensation for the fares avoided

If you are found guilty then this is a criminal conviction. If you are prosecuted under the TfL Bylaws (which is what normally happens) then the conviction isn't normally recorded on the Police National Computer and won't normally appear on Basic DBS checks although we always advise people to be honest when asked if they have a conviction.

Here's a link to TfL's Revenue Enforcement & Prosecutions Policy which you might find worth reading:

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/revenue-enforcement-and-prosecutions-policy.pdf

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is any way we can get some more information? Thanks

You have been given clear and comprehensive advice here already. We have assumed that you gave a correct name and address to the inspector when your were stopped. Now wait for the letter from TfL, and when you receive it, post a copy on here with personal details obscured. Assuming the card was confiscated, the holder of the card may also receive a letter from TfL asking about the circumstances.

I’m getting more confused but thank you for your support and making me more anxious . Have a lovely day!

marika said:

I’m getting more confused but thank you for your support and making me more anxious . Have a lovely day!

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You need to tell us what you find confusing and we’ll try to help.

Read what I wrote upthread, this tells you what is likely to happen.

I’m happy to pay a fine I don’t want a prosecution that all .

Hello Marika

You will need to accept that the choice about any potential prosecution is not yours to make and is the sole decision of Transport for London.

For now, you would be well advised to heed the advice you have already been given and ensure you engage in a timely and honest manner with Transport for London when they write to you.

You can also return here for advice or guidance when you receive the correspondence.

marika said:

I’m happy to pay a fine I don’t want a prosecution that all .

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I’m afraid that’s a highly unlikely outcome.

To be blunt, by using a Freedom Pass you’re not entitled to use is a criminal offence and Transport for London normally prosecute.

There is very little you or anyone else can do to change this.

Yes we understand that you do not want to be prosecuted.

TfL will decide whether to prosecute (or not) but in cases like this they nearly always decide to prosecute. That is their policy.

All you can do is to write the letter to Tfl: as @Hadders has suggested upthread.

The impact of being prosecuted depends upon your occupation. Some occupations for example working in finance, insurance, the legal profession, medicine require you to be a fit and proper person. Being prosecuted can result in you being barred from working in those professions. If you are working in one of those professions you should take advice from your professional association.

I working as a carer as wondering only for the DBS check if could have an impact on it.
Thanks

marika said:

I working as a carer as wondering only for the DBS check if could have an impact on it.
Thanks

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Unfortunately, it could have but you can't turn the clock back.

marika said:

I working as a carer as wondering only for the DBS check if could have an impact on it.
Thanks

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It won't normally stop you being a carer, even if (as is usual) an enhanced DBS is required. It's not really the right question, since you will be asked to declare convictions, cautions and related issues. Whether or not it ends up on a DBS or EDBS is the wrong way to look at it, since the DBS comes out at the very last stages of recruitment / appointment to a role, whereas being asked about your criminal record is at the start of the recruitment process. Having convictions on a DBS is awkward but resolvable. Lying about your criminal record is not resolvable, it's more serious than the DBS issue. So in short, if convicted of a crime - which is the usual outcome with TfL - then you need to declare it in some lines of employment. If there are labour shortages then employers are prepared to take on people with convictions, but labour shortages or not they won't take on liars.

If you are a carer now then if you receive a letter from TfL (this will be pretty intimidating, by the way, and deliberately so) you may want to mention this to your employer if - as I would expect - there is a requirement to update your employer of criminal convictions. It may well not be a huge problem.

So will be no possibility of just paying the penalty?

marika said:

So will be no possibility of just paying the penalty?

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Also i understand and I regret my action ?

marika said:

So will be no possibility of just paying the penalty?


Also i understand and I regret my action ?

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I think it's been said a few times already, but with TfL they are usually very tough on this one, and you can expect it to go to court. It's quite often the case that TfL forces you to attend at court, when they (TfL) have alternative options. You have zero choice about this, but of course once you have the letter you can try to dissuade them from prosecuting. Check with this forum when that happens with the text of the letter. It's usually not successful. They clearly want to deter people from stealing from the public.

marika said:

So will be no possibility of just paying the penalty?


Also i understand and I regret my action ?

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You need to understand that the penalty IS the criminal conviction. The criminal conviction then comes with a 'sentence', that sentence is a court fine. There is not a system where by you can misuse tickets (essentially deliberately steal from the transport operator) and just pay a penalty that is a sum of money to resolve that unless the transport operator decides to allow that. Transport for London very rarely allow that.

In England misusing tickets like this is criminal offence. It comes with the risk of a punishment by a court. A punishment by a court comes with a criminal record.

I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but i tis my understanding of how the law is with regard to this issue.

Thank very much for all your answers looks like I’m going to loose my job at the end by thanks anyway from bottom of my heart !

marika said:

Thank very much for all your answers looks like I’m going to loose my job at the end by thanks anyway from bottom of my heart !

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This is honestly unlikely. Yes, you will probably have to tell your employer about it. However, they are more concerned about offences that suggest you could be dangerous to the vulnerable people you're working with, not relatively minor stuff about train tickets. In the unlikely event they decided to dismiss you over this, you would very likely still be able to get another job doing the same thing, especially given the shortage of carers right now. Just make sure you don't do this again because multiple convictions is more likely to become a signifcant issue.

Hadders said:

Welcome to the forum!

Transport for London take misuse of Freedom Passes very seriously and a prosecution under the TfL Bylaws is the usual outcome.

It sounds as though you've been sent a Verification Letter by TfL. This asks you to confirm or deny the incident and ask you to give any mitigating circumstances which you would like them to take into account when deciding how to proceed.

I suggest you mention the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and TfL's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

TfL generally do not offer out of court settlements although in some very limited circumstances they have been known to issue a final warning instead of prosecution. Prosecutions are normally done through what is called a Single Justice Procedure Notice. This means that if you plead guilty it is not necessary to attend court in person (unless you choose to do), you simply return the form to the court with any mitigation you want them to tae into account and they will write to you with the details of the fine you have to pay.

If you are prosecuted and plead guilty (or are found guilty by the court) then you will have to pay:

- A fine based on your income (normally discounted by a third if you plead guilty at the earliest opportunity)
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine
- A contribution towards TfL's costs
- Compensation for the fares avoided

If you are found guilty then this is a criminal conviction. If you are prosecuted under the TfL Bylaws (which is what normally happens) then the conviction isn't normally recorded on the Police National Computer and won't normally appear on Basic DBS checks although we always advise people to be honest when asked if they have a conviction.

Here's a link to TfL's Revenue Enforcement & Prosecutions Policy which you might find worth reading:

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/revenue-enforcement-and-prosecutions-policy.pdf

Click to expand...

Could you explain a bit more about is not going to shows in DBS basic please ?

Thanks

marika said:

Could you explain a bit more about is not going to shows in DBS basic please ?

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Yes. You will most likely be prosecuted under the TfL Byelaws for not having a valid ticket.
This is a "non-recordable" offence so will not show on a Standard DBS check.

It may show on an Enhanced check and a potential employer then has to decide if this represents a risk and if so how to work around it. That might mean not giving you the job, but it might not.

Either way, far better to be upfront about it. You should only say that you have a conviction for not having a ticket - nothing more!

marika said:

So will be no possibility of just paying the penalty?

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It's very unlikely I'm afraid. This was deliberate and wilful abuse of a valuable free pass, and a criminal offence.