Any chance in a successful appeal for the smallest offense

bobthejob · 20 Mar 2024

Travelled to my parents literally the next station 7 minutes journey 4 pound ticket. Bought my ticket with a Railcard as I thought it was still active. 2.60 ticket.

Been hit with a 55 pound fine. First time I've travelled this year and it ran out last month. Only sporadically travel. Think I've used the trains 4/5 times in last year. Any chance I could appeal it due to it being a small offence and a mistake or are they genuinely never going to accept an appeal unless they have actually just made a mistake with the penalty.

Would appreciate quite concise replies if it's worth the time appealing or not, I posted similar on Reddit and just got lectured and mocked. I just want to know if they ever accept appeals at all.

RailUK Forums

skyhigh · 20 Mar 2024

There's no harm in appealing, but the only way you'll be successful is if they have made a procedural error.

island · 20 Mar 2024

it sounds like you’ve been issued a Penalty Fare of £50 plus the full single fare for your journey, which is the appropriate and normal way of handling issues where a passenger has an invalid ticket due to a mistake.

Can you please confirm the exact value of the penalty fare and the ticket you presented? The amounts you’ve mentioned sound like the penalty fare could have been issued for the wrong amount, which would make it invalid, but if you’ve given approximate/rounded values they could be correct.

800Travel · 20 Mar 2024

bobthejob said:
Travelled to my parents literally the next station 7 minutes journey 4 pound ticket. Bought my ticket with a Railcard as I thought it was still active. 2.60 ticket.

Been hit with a 55 pound fine. First time I've travelled this year and it ran out last month. Only sporadically travel. Think I've used the trains 4/5 times in last year. Any chance I could appeal it due to it being a small offence and a mistake or are they genuinely never going to accept an appeal unless they have actually just made a mistake with the penalty.

Would appreciate quite concise replies if it's worth the time appealing or not, I posted similar on Reddit and just got lectured and mocked. I just want to know if they ever accept appeals at all.

I'll leave the appeals part to the expert who will be along shortly, but one thing to mention is if you think you'll need a railcard for the next year, purchase it and tell them you've done so in any appeal letter you write. This is always a positive step, but other than signage technicalities and procedural errors, I'm not sure an appeal would be successful unfortunately.

Did you receive any letters or paperwork? If so, it would be helpful to redact personal information and upload them.

bobthejob · 20 Mar 2024

island said:
it sounds like you’ve been issued a Penalty Fare of £50 plus the full single fare for your journey, which is the appropriate and normal way of handling issues where a passenger has an invalid ticket due to a mistake.

Can you please confirm the exact value of the penalty fare and the ticket you presented? The amounts you’ve mentioned sound like the penalty fare could have been issued for the wrong amount, which would make it invalid, but if you’ve given approximate/rounded values they could be correct.

I paid 2.50 with a Railcard the fare should have been 4 so the penalty is 54... 0 chance of a successful appeal for such a small mistake

skyhigh said:
There's no harm in appealing, but the only way you'll be successful is if they have made a procedural error.

What does this mean. Like if they've given me a penalty for the wrong thing

WesternLancer · 20 Mar 2024

bobthejob said:
Travelled to my parents literally the next station 7 minutes journey 4 pound ticket. Bought my ticket with a Railcard as I thought it was still active. 2.60 ticket.

Been hit with a 55 pound fine. First time I've travelled this year and it ran out last month. Only sporadically travel. Think I've used the trains 4/5 times in last year. Any chance I could appeal it due to it being a small offence and a mistake or are they genuinely never going to accept an appeal unless they have actually just made a mistake with the penalty.

Would appreciate quite concise replies if it's worth the time appealing or not, I posted similar on Reddit and just got lectured and mocked. I just want to know if they ever accept appeals at all.

Hi and welcome - just to check - were you issued with a Penalty Fare? (£100 but reduced to £50 if paid promptly)?

Need to check this as there are other sanctions railways issue that people seem to think are Penalty Fares when they are not! This is v important.

If so IMHO probably a waste of time appealing - the appeal has to be based on the reasons set out in the legislation as to why Penalty Fare (PF) is not valid (for example there was no ticket purchasing facility at your station or boarding eg ticket machine broken and station unstaffed say - which would be a reason in the legislation that you should not be issued with a PF) - this can work, but 'it was just a minor mistake for a low value fare' is not a valid grounds to appeal in the legislation AFAIK.

HOWEVER - there can be reasons that make it worth appealing:
- the £50 + ticket price discount is frozen during the appeal process - so gives time to save up the money if skint without the sum increasing to £100+ticket price
- the Appeal process prevents the train company taking you to court AIUI for fare evasion (a remote but not impossible option) as you did not have a valid ticket for travel.

Sorry if this is not brief enough - but you will get good advice here!

bobthejob said:
I paid 2.50 with a Railcard the fare should have been 4 so the penalty is 54... 0 chance of a successful appeal for such a small mistake

What does this mean. Like if they've given me a penalty for the wrong thing

it means things like the PF paperwork not filled in correctly by the member of staff who issued it (as an example).

Brissle Girl · 20 Mar 2024

bobthejob said:
I paid 2.50 with a Railcard the fare should have been 4 so the penalty is 54... 0 chance of a successful appeal for such a small mistake

What does this mean. Like if they've given me a penalty for the wrong thing

If you're happy that the correct price of the ticket was £4.00 and you've been charged £54, then it looks as though the Penalty Fare was correctly issued. Certainly no chance of them allowing on the basis that it was small beer or a mistake. On the latter point, the PF process is designed for those who (like you) have made a mistake, rather than those who have deliberately been trying to avoid the correct fare, so they are hardly likely to waive it for you.

I think you are best to pay it, make a calendar entry to remind yourself next year, and move on as ultimately you didn't have a valid ticket.

bobthejob · 20 Mar 2024

WesternLancer said:
Hi and welcome - just to check - were you issued with a Penalty Fare? (£100 but reduced to £50 if paid promptly)?

Need to check this as there are other sanctions railways issue that people seem to think are Penalty Fares when they are not! This is v important.

If so IMHO probably a waste of time appealing - the appeal has to be based on the reasons set out in the legislation as to why Penalty Fare (PF) is not valid - this can work, but 'it was just a minor mistake for a low value fare' is not a valid grounds to appeal in the legislation AFAIK.

HOWEVER - there can be reasons that make it worth appealing:
- the £50 + ticket price discount is frozen during the appeal process - so gives time to save up the money if skint without the sum increasing to £100+ticket price
- the Appeal process prevents the train company taking you to court AIUI for fare evasion (a remote but not impossible option) as you did not have a valid ticket for travel.

Sorry if this is not brief enough - but you will get good advice here!

it means things like the PF paperwork not filled in correctly by the member of staff who issued it (as an example).

That's such a shame.

First train this year was less than 2 pound difference even said I'd renew the Railcard on the spot as I genuinely didn't realise.

You think people would show a little compassion obviously fare dodging a cross country journey etc but for a couple quid personally would always expect a bit of leniency. Guess not everyone sees things that way

WesternLancer · 20 Mar 2024

bobthejob said:
That's such a shame.

First train this year was less than 2 pound difference even said I'd renew the Railcard on the spot as I genuinely didn't realise.

You think people would show a little compassion obviously fare dodging a cross country journey etc but for a couple quid personally would always expect a bit of leniency. Guess not everyone sees things that way

Yes, you have my sympathy - but a quick look at threads here indicates that loads of people use Railcard discounts that they are not entitled to due to expiry of railcards sometimes months + ago when they are using the trains every day so much money lost. On top of that Railcard fraud instances are high - judging by cases on here of people getting caught at least.

But yes you would hope for more discretion in such low value cases.

FWIW the PF route is the 'least worst' option they could have undertaken other than letting you off - they can and do report people for investigation / prosecution, the costs and time to then resolve is much higher.

A bit off topic but of course back in the day when you had to show a railcard at a ticket office window or to the guard this problem did not really arise as it would have been pointed out the railcard was expired before the ticket was sold to you. Now it's your responsibility to ensure it is valid as self service / online ticketing retail methods move that risk to you.

bobthejob · 20 Mar 2024

WesternLancer said:
Yes, you have my sympathy - but a quick look at threads here indicates that loads of people use Railcard discounts that they are not entitled to due to expiry of railcards sometimes months + ago when they are using the trains every day so much money lost. On top of that Railcard fraud instances are high - judging by cases on here of people getting caught at least.

But yes you would hope for more discretion in such low value cases.

FWIW the PF route is the 'least worst' option they could have undertaken other than letting you off - they can and do report people for investigation / prosecution, the costs and time to then resolve is much higher.

A bit off topic but of course back in the day when you had to show a railcard at a ticket office window or to the guard this problem did not really arise as it would have been pointed out the railcard was expired before the ticket was sold to you. Now it's your responsibility to ensure it is valid as self service / online ticketing retail methods move that risk to you.

Hopefully there's a chance given it's the first time I've travelled since it expired but yeah I get how it's unlikely

AlterEgo · 20 Mar 2024

bobthejob said:
What does this mean. Like if they've given me a penalty for the wrong thing

Yes. Please post the notice (blank out your personal details) and give details of your start and end stations.

skyhigh · 20 Mar 2024

bobthejob said:
Hopefully there's a chance given it's the first time I've travelled since it expired but yeah I get how it's unlikely

They are very unlikely to cancel the penalty fare just because it's the first time you travelled - as this sort of thing is exactly what they were intended to be used for.

ikcdab · 20 Mar 2024

bobthejob said:
That's such a shame.

First train this year was less than 2 pound difference even said I'd renew the Railcard on the spot as I genuinely didn't realise.

You think people would show a little compassion obviously fare dodging a cross country journey etc but for a couple quid personally would always expect a bit of leniency. Guess not everyone sees things that way

That doesn't really make sense. So if you say that evading a £2 fare is ok, what wouldn't be ok? £5? And if you start the line at £5, then those caught for missing a £5.30 fare would complain saying it's only 30p over the limit.

bobthejob · 20 Mar 2024

ikcdab said:
That doesn't really make sense. So if you say that evading a £2 fare is ok, what wouldn't be ok? £5? And if you start the line at £5, then those caught for missing a £5.30 fare would complain saying it's only 30p over the limit.

There's always one

island · 20 Mar 2024

bobthejob said:
You think people would show a little compassion obviously fare dodging a cross country journey etc but for a couple quid personally would always expect a bit of leniency. Guess not everyone sees things that way

You need to understand that they have shown you leniency. They’d have been entitled to take you to court for the criminal offence of travelling without a proper ticket, and that would land you with a bill well into the hundreds of pounds. The issuance of a penalty fare is a lesser sanction for people who make mistakes.

bobthejob · 20 Mar 2024

island said:
You need to understand that they have shown you leniency. They’d have been entitled to take you to court for the criminal offence of travelling without a proper ticket, and that would land you with a bill well into the hundreds of pounds. The issuance of a penalty fare is a lesser sanction for people who make mistakes.

No offense but brown nosing the rail sector that literally cripple this country is crazy.

WesternLancer · 20 Mar 2024

bobthejob said:
No offense but brown nosing the rail sector that literally cripple this country is crazy.

You need to be aware they are acting on direct govt instruction to maximise income in order to reduce subsidy.

They are clearly expected by Dept for Transport to maximise penalties as part of fare evasion clampdown. This instruction seems to be to do this even if it results in negative customer experience and reduced passenger numbers.

Ref your case - loads of people with expired railcards come on this forum because they have been reported for investigation (so that the train operator trawls their purchase history to see how many trips they may have made before their expired railcard got notices, either by mistake or not) - all those cases result in much higher payments needing to be made (on top of the fares owed) than a Penalty Fare results in.

Brissle Girl · 20 Mar 2024

bobthejob said:
No offense but brown nosing the rail sector that literally cripple this country is crazy.

You have to be mindful that people here are attempting to give you advice (that you asked for) in good faith. If you don't like the advice you are given then fine, feel free to look elsewhere, but insulting them is unlikely to be of any benefit to you.

Remember too that the advice is not based on we think the sanction should be, but what it is likely to be given the law as it stands and the experience we have in seeing previous cases.

Starmill · 20 Mar 2024

bobthejob said:
Hopefully there's a chance given it's the first time I've travelled since it expired but yeah I get how it's unlikely

At the end of the day you're a soft target making this kind of mistake. They want money, they don't want to have to pay a lot out to catch people committing actual fraud, who are much more likely to be good at covering their tracks. As a result you're exactly the sort of person they'll go for first as you provide the best return.

By all means grit your teeth as you pay up, I know I would be!

AlterEgo · 20 Mar 2024

bobthejob said:
No offense but brown nosing the rail sector that literally cripple this country is crazy.

It’s still an option for you to provide the details I asked for earlier, so the possibility of a technical appeal can be assessed.

Watershed · 20 Mar 2024

bobthejob said:
No offense but brown nosing the rail sector that literally cripple this country is crazy.

I don't think people here are interested in brown-nosing the rail industry. We would probably all agree that it's highly flawed and not delivering as good a service as it could (or should).

But we are just explaining that the outcome could have been a lot worse than a Penalty Fare. So although even a Penalty Fare may seem a harsh outcome, it is actually lenient by the standards of the rail industry.

I would also point out that - whilst I agree it could be seen as harsh - a penalty of £50-100 is typical in car parks for instance, or for incorrectly claiming you have an NHS prescription certificate. So it isn't as if this is a totally unique situation: it's a painful but minor penalty for making a fairly minor mistake.

Bungle158 · 21 Mar 2024

I can understand the OP's displeasure at being sanctioned for what appears to be a minor breach. However, the alternative is court proceedings and an almost inevitable criminal conviction.

The old adage, "don't shoot the messenger," appears to apply here. Those who advise on these pages do so freely. It would be appropriate to show at least some appreciation rather than discourtesy.

island · 21 Mar 2024

bobthejob said:
No offense but brown nosing the rail sector that literally cripple this country is crazy.

If you want help from the people here, many of whom are experts at minimising the impact of ticket violations, you need a swift attitude change.

Starmill · 21 Mar 2024

bobthejob said:
Travelled to my parents literally the next station 7 minutes journey 4 pound ticket. Bought my ticket with a Railcard as I thought it was still active. 2.60 ticket.

Been hit with a 55 pound fine. First time I've travelled this year and it ran out last month. Only sporadically travel. Think I've used the trains 4/5 times in last year. Any chance I could appeal it due to it being a small offence and a mistake or are they genuinely never going to accept an appeal unless they have actually just made a mistake with the penalty.

Would appreciate quite concise replies if it's worth the time appealing or not, I posted similar on Reddit and just got lectured and mocked. I just want to know if they ever accept appeals at all.

Don't let the time run out to pay the Penalty Fare while you receive the 50% discount.

6Gman · 21 Mar 2024

bobthejob said:
That's such a shame.

First train this year was less than 2 pound difference even said I'd renew the Railcard on the spot as I genuinely didn't realise.

You think people would show a little compassion obviously fare dodging a cross country journey etc but for a couple quid personally would always expect a bit of leniency. Guess not everyone sees things that way

To a degree you have been shown some leniency - they could have opted to prosecute you.

bobthejob · 21 Mar 2024

Can I appeal after I've paid it. Id rather pay it and say that I've done it and still lodge an appeal

Starmill · 21 Mar 2024

bobthejob said:
Can I appeal after I've paid it. Id rather pay it and say that I've done it and still lodge an appeal

I don't think having paid it would be a reason for an appeal not to be in order. However, you don't really gain anything, because if you lodge an appeal the countdown on paying with the prompt payment discount is 'paused'.

I would strongly advise against submitting a totally unmeritorious appeal (e.g. you only avoided paying a small value) just to delay payment. That's not to say you don't have grounds to at least lodge the appeal, but I note that above a lot of people have asked you to engage with their questions to establish such grounds, and thus far you've not really replied.

island · 21 Mar 2024

bobthejob said:
Can I appeal after I've paid it. Id rather pay it and say that I've done it and still lodge an appeal

Yes, that is an option open to you. If your appeal is successful the “penalty” element of £50 will be paid back to you. Starmill’s advice is however worth following.

Any chance in a successful appeal for the smallest offense

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