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Rerouting all Southeastern Mainline services into Victoria (and via Crystal Palace?) or Waterloo - could it work?

AY1975

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I wonder if Southeastern could potentially reroute most or all its Mainline (i.e. conventional as opposed to High Speed services to and from Kent Coast destinations) into Victoria, rather than having some serving Victoria and some serving Charing Cross, or if this could have been done in pre-HS1 days.

Doing this would free up capacity for additional suburban services at Charing Cross, and maybe enable some Southern services that terminate at London Bridge to be extended to Charing Cross as used to happen until a few years ago.

It would also mean that passengers travelling to the likes of Ashford, Folkestone, Dover, Margate, Ramsgate and Hastings would have the convenience of leaving from just one station, and eliminate any confusion as to which destinations were served from which terminal. Charing Cross services have occasionally been diverted to Victoria during engineering works, though.

I'm not sure that either Victoria station itself or the Southeastern lines from Victoria would have enough capacity to handle so many additional trains, though. It would also inconvenience passengers from Kent Coast towns whose final destination was nearer to London Bridge or Charing Cross or who were changing onto a train from Waterloo main line station via Waterloo East, for example if they were going from Canterbury to Salisbury. Some peak hour trains could continue to use Charing Cross or Cannon Street, though.

I also wonder if some Southeastern services from Victoria could be routed via Crystal Palace, enabling them to call at Clapham Junction. The single track section between Birkbeck and Beckenham Junction would probably make this a non-starter, though.

Another possibility might be to reroute some Southeastern services into Waterloo via the curve between Vauxhall and Wandsworth Road that Eurostar used to use. Again this has been done at least once during engineering works, but I'm not sure that there'd be much benefit in doing it on a permanent basis.
 
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JonathanH

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It would also inconvenience passengers from Kent Coast towns whose final destination was nearer to London Bridge or Charing Cross or who were changing onto a train from Waterloo main line station via Waterloo East, for example if they were going from Canterbury to Salisbury. Some peak hour trains could continue to use Charing Cross or Cannon Street, though.
Yes, you hit the nail on the head there. People plan their lives around existing service patterns and their workplace and would baulk at having links removed.

The line into Victoria from Bromley South is generally two track, with some fairly ineffective loops at Kent House, and a number of intermediate stations.

The line from Orpington into Charing Cross is four track, and therefore has the capacity to run fast trains from the outer destinations alongside the slower services. Moreover, Charing Cross copes well with the service despite only having six platforms.

There realistically isn't capacity to concentrate the outer services on the Victoria route, even if platform occupancy at Victoria isn't as intensive as it is at Charing Cross.

Doing this would free up capacity for additional suburban services at Charing Cross, and maybe enable some Southern services that terminate at London Bridge to be extended to Charing Cross as used to happen until a few years ago.
Are you saying that more inner suburban services are needed at London Bridge, Charing Cross and Cannon Street, but not at Victoria?

It would also mean that passengers travelling to the likes of Ashford, Folkestone, Dover, Margate, Ramsgate and Hastings would have the convenience of leaving from just one station, and eliminate any confusion as to which destinations were served from which terminal.
Is this really a problem at the moment? Should all fast trains from East Croydon and beyond run to Victoria to remove the confusion about trains running from there and London Bridge?
 
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swt_passenger

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Another possibility might be to reroute some Southeastern services into Waterloo via the curve between Vauxhall and Wandsworth Road that Eurostar used to use. Again this has been done at least once during engineering works, but I'm not sure that there'd be much benefit in doing it on a permanent basis.
It was also only done at a time when SWR hadn’t yet started making full timetabled use of the former international platforms. I dare say SWR could manage without them for now though, just about every part of their timetable has been reduced since 2020.

But what real advantage for passengers does terminating at Waterloo have, compared to running into Charing Cross or even Victoria? Both of the SE stations are within easy walking distance of many final destinations.
 

cle

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If anything, Victoria - being two tracked - should become local and semi-fast only - it’s terribly underused, whereas Charing Cross should take up more fast duties - eg the Maidstone line. And push metro services to Victoria and Cannon St only.

Medway / Canterbury East should be St Pancras.

Victoria should be doing 8tph to Orpington/Rochester mix, and 8tph via Denmark Hill (some towards Lewisham and some on both routes semi fast to keep Bromley South’s service up)
 

CarrotPie

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I'm not sure that either Victoria station itself or the Southeastern lines from Victoria would have enough capacity to handle so many additional trains, though.
I strongly doubt it.
It would also inconvenience passengers from Kent Coast towns whose final destination was nearer to London Bridge or Charing Cross or who were changing onto a train from Waterloo main line station via Waterloo East, for example if they were going from Canterbury to Salisbury. Some peak hour trains could continue to use Charing Cross or Cannon Street, though.
Indeed. Charing Cross is a useful leisure destination, hence a lot of services go there instead. The Maidstone East line actually has a (somewhat) new hourly service there to help with connectivity; it's infinitely more useful if you want to connect through Waterloo (SWR) or London Bridge (TL).
 

PTR 444

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If anything, Victoria - being two tracked - should become local and semi-fast only - it’s terribly underused, whereas Charing Cross should take up more fast duties - eg the Maidstone line. And push metro services to Victoria and Cannon St only.

Medway / Canterbury East should be St Pancras.

Victoria should be doing 8tph to Orpington/Rochester mix, and 8tph via Denmark Hill (some towards Lewisham and some on both routes semi fast to keep Bromley South’s service up)
Agreed. If all SouthEastern country services are to be consolidated on a single London Terminal, Charing Cross/London Bridge would be the much better choice. For the direct Victoria links lost, it’s not too far on the Tube from Embankment.

This could allow for a much simplified service pattern across Kent. For example, I’d route both trains via Tonbridge through Ashford to Canterbury West/Margate, and run a 2tph Charing Cross - Maidstone East - Ashford - Dover service to parallel the M20.
 
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stuu

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There's no way on earth anything else could be routed via Herne Hill without grade separating the junction
 

Sad Sprinter

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There's no way on earth anything else could be routed via Herne Hill without grade separating the junction

Is that possible? You'd have to get rid of a lot of houses.

To answer the OP, I wonder if sending the SE fast services up Thameslink would theoretically be better, if you REALLY wanted to gain more capacity at Charing Cross.
 

43096

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Another possibility might be to reroute some Southeastern services into Waterloo via the curve between Vauxhall and Wandsworth Road that Eurostar used to use. Again this has been done at least once during engineering works, but I'm not sure that there'd be much benefit in doing it on a permanent basis.
Why would you re-route into Waterloo?! There isn't really capacity for South Eastern services at Waterloo anyway and you're proposing diverting services away from Charing Cross for no logical reason - those services already call at Waterloo.
 

SE%Traveller

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IIRC the max capacity on the routes to Victoria & Blackfriars in the Peak was 12 via Herne Hill & 8 via Catford. Off Peak Catford Loop drops to 6 because of freight. At the moment in the Peak they're running 10 via HH (8 VIC/ 2 BFR) 6 via Catford (4 T/L 2 VIC). This drops to to 5 & 8 3 respectively off peak. So there is some capacity there.

You certainly improve the timings of some of the Chathams, getting the Gillingham to go ahead of the Sevenoaks Service would be start, as it catches up with around about Catford.
I'd certainly divert
 
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Meerkat

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Is that possible? You'd have to get rid of a lot of houses.

To answer the OP, I wonder if sending the SE fast services up Thameslink would theoretically be better, if you REALLY wanted to gain more capacity at Charing Cross.
Think the crayoning answer was a fast lines tunnel from north of Wandsworth Road to somewhere around Dulwich (plenty of cheap land and amenable residents round there o_O)
Would speed things up a bit….at a cost to enrage northerners….
 

stuu

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Is that possible? You'd have to get rid of a lot of houses.
There was a vague plan to do it somehow, but I have never seen an actual plan. It used to be my local station, so I have spent the odd idle moment waiting for a delayed train wondering how it could be done - if you forego cross-platform interchange, then there is a fair bit of space where the NR depot is (assuming that isn't flats now), so it might be possible without demolishing any houses. Depends on acceptable gradients
 

telstarbox

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I strongly doubt it.

Indeed. Charing Cross is a useful leisure destination, hence a lot of services go there instead. The Maidstone East line actually has a (somewhat) new hourly service there to help with connectivity; it's infinitely more useful if you want to connect through Waterloo (SWR) or London Bridge (TL).
Even though it's not in the City you can also access loads of jobs by walking out of Charing Cross - Whitehall for the civil service, embassies around St James, the West End for entertainment, Covent Garden ditto, LSE, King's College London, lots of offices above the shops, hospitality everywhere. London Bridge and the wider South Bank has also grown as a destination in the last 20 years.
 

yorksrob

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Not a very good idea I think.

As well as Charing Cross being handy for many, Waterloo East and London Bridge are good for connection.

If anything, they need to reinstate the fast service from the Kent coast to Charing Cross.
 

John Bray

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London Bridge with 2 tube lines, Thameslink and the bridge itself, is a lot more useful for commuters accessing the high density commercial areas. Charing Cross is the best station for leisure traffic. Victoria. with a lot of residential property, is a lot less useful as a destination. So even if you ploughed a 4 track route to Victoria through the Crystal Palace ridge you'd be increasing journey times to a less useful destination. And then then 4 track line through Hither Green would be underused.
 

Sad Sprinter

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London Bridge with 2 tube lines, Thameslink and the bridge itself, is a lot more useful for commuters accessing the high density commercial areas. Charing Cross is the best station for leisure traffic. Victoria. with a lot of residential property, is a lot less useful as a destination. So even if you ploughed a 4 track route to Victoria through the Crystal Palace ridge you'd be increasing journey times to a less useful destination. And then then 4 track line through Hither Green would be underused.
You raise the interesting point whether had the Crystal Palace not been built would that have led to a pathway into the Belgravia area at all. Surely in such an eventuality the LBSCR would have extended its line from London Bridge to the Charing Cross area and the LCDR possibly without a clear path into London been absorbed into the SER system.
 

MPW

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What about the Sidcup and grove park slows through hither green being all (or mostly) for Victoria and TL. All trains on North side of lewisham Junction to cannon street.

Fast trains which bypass lewisham all go to charing Cross. Have those fast trains call additionally at hithergreen (which would have both grove park and Sidcup lines running through). I live on the grove park line and wouldn't mind the change at lewisham for office near cst (or HG change for faster journey to LB and walk or tfl bike over the bridge).
 

infobleep

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Nobody wants to go to Victoria. If it didn't exist now nobody would suggest building a station there.
Perhaps they could route some Southern branded trains from Victoria to Waterloo. :lol: :lol: I'm not being serious but it would be more useful if it was actually possible, which it isn't.
 

PTR 444

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Nobody wants to go to Victoria. If it didn't exist now nobody would suggest building a station there.
Victoria is useful for Buckingham Palace and the Kensington museums, so I would highly doubt that nobody wants to go there. I agree though that it isn’t the best terminal if your final destination is The City.
 

cle

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Not everyone wants to go to The City. Nor do the people of South London visit Buckingham Palace much.

Victoria is no different to Paddington or Euston. A suitable terminus on the edge of Central London. Not a wildly exciting destination, but walkable to plenty. And in Victoria's case, tons of hotels and cheapo accommodation, tourism stuff, a few major theatres, the coach station.... but also a lot of employment - the new development, the many employers along Victoria St (and Horseferry Road) - and very walkable to many civil service jobs. Also if you can get on the Victoria line, it's the best tube line in London, and tons of onward buses to areas like Knightsbridge and Chelsea which aren't very commutable.

London is hugely complex and polycentric. I see this argument about Paddington all the time and it's stupid.

Look at Paris - similarly compass-arranged termini on the fringe of the centre. Because, of course...
 

contrex

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Victoria is useful for Buckingham Palace and the Kensington museums, so I would highly doubt that nobody wants to go there. I agree though that it isn’t the best terminal if your final destination is The City.
We lived at Herne Hill. My mother used to commute to Victoria to work in Gorringes (department store), my father to his job managing the West End area of the London Electricity Board, and me in my first job, in the Civil Service at Curzon Street House (before MI5 moved in!).
 

MPW

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What about the Sidcup and grove park slows through hither green being all (or mostly) for Victoria and TL. All trains on North side of lewisham Junction to cannon street.

Fast trains which bypass lewisham all go to charing Cross. Have those fast trains call additionally at hithergreen (which would have both grove park and Sidcup lines running through). I live on the grove park line and wouldn't mind the change at lewisham for office near cst (or HG change for faster journey to LB and walk or tfl bike over the bridge).
I am curious what peoples thoughts are on this. I have seen some posts which show good knowledge of what is possible with current infrastructure, just by amending timetables. How frequent could the various lines be if conflicts were removed at lewisham and blackfriars (sutton loop terminates in bay)?

Or what is possible with a simplified network assuming some smaller infrastructure changes (eg south london metroisation report).
 

CarrotPie

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I am curious what people's thoughts are on this. I have seen some posts which show good knowledge of what is possible with current infrastructure, just by amending timetables. How frequent could the various lines be if conflicts were removed at Lewisham and Blackfriars (Sutton loop terminates in bay)?

Or what is possible with a simplified network assuming some smaller infrastructure changes (eg South London metroisation report)?
Well, everything that skips Lewisham either has to go to CHX or go to CST and make a nuisance of itself on the Slows. Anything stopping at Lewisham has to use the slows from Hither Green (or, preferably, the whole route). Lewisham stoppers for CHX have to use the Tanners Hill lines and services for CST use the slows (and thus call at St Johns and New Cross).
 

MPW

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kiitos!
Well, everything that skips Lewisham either has to go to CHX or go to CST and make a nuisance of itself on the Slows. Anything stopping at Lewisham has to use the slows from Hither Green (or, preferably, the whole route). Lewisham stoppers for CHX have to use the Tanners Hill lines and services for CST use the slows (and thus call at St Johns and New Cross).
 

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