The 5% wouldn't be for the 2024 award. ASLEF are still negotiating the 2022 award, inflation for that period was around 9%. Then there's the 2023 award to negotiated, again roughly 9% CPI inflation in that period.
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ASLEF strikes 5th-8th April weekend
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What was your point about Whelan?
Great post. We agree, then, that it is the responsibility of evrywone who works for the railway to improve it.
I never said that old chap. And never would.
manmikey
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You are wholly incorrect as ASLEF reps did negotiate with their respective TOCs in the usual way for the 2022 pay claim. The TOCs however were unable to negotiate on pay increase and other matters at these talks due to the terms of the National Rail Contrats they were and still are operating under today (The NRC replaced the Emergency Recovery Measure Agreements).
The TOCs could not then and still can't now negotiate any payrise over 2% (CPI was 5.5
% Inflation 6.2% in Feb 2022 ) without permission from the RDG who in turn require authority of the DFT.
Time and time again in early 2022 our reps came back stating the talks with the TOCs were a waste of time as they freely admitted they couldn't negotiate on pay or productivity and that remains the case today.
That is what triggered the first ballots for industrial action in 2022.
Your assertion that ASLEF chose not negotiate with TOCs is incorrect.
High Dyke
Established Member
Nope. The Welsh and Scottish politicians seemed to resolve industrial disputes a lot easier. So, why can't the same happen in England?
May have been discussed already, but if the current dispute is for the 2022 pay rise, where does that leave the 2023 and 2024 pay rises? Are they all separate disputes or are all 3 pay rises going to be lumped into one rise when this is eventually sorted?
This in effect is a large part of what is wrong with today's workplace - stress, work-life balance etc. They call it multi-skilled or flexible working etc. Which basically means, employ less staff and make those that remain work harder for less. I don't work on the railways, I work in education and that's exactly what has happened. Less staff, spinning more plates. It works great on paper, it saves lots of pension/wages for the employer. In practice though, it's a poor deal for the six year olds who end up having to share a teaching assistant between three classes. Same goes for the NHS etc.
Is this off topic, no. It's more relevant than you know. If train drivers were doing all the multi-skilled (every single minute if time worked used productively) then the incident rate when out driving trains would increase.
There's nothing wrong with doing less, but doing it really well and thoroughly.
ASLEF have in the past clearly fought hard to represent their members and try and fight for better working conditions and practices. We shouldn't begrudge their success, we should rather bemoan the lack of union strength in other industries where the employer can walk all over the employees and there's diddly squat they can do about it.
Even though this will pass over many people’s head due to sheer ignorance, I just want to say well done for a point put extremely well!
Bantamzen
Established Member
As I understand it, the current sticking point is that the RDG have requested that the April 2023 offer be put to ASLEF members, but their executive have decided to reject it on behalf of their membership. I also believe that their is a rule in ASLEF that states something along the lines of if the exec makes a decision on behalf of the membership, this cannot go to a vote unless a revised offer is made. So basically it's a standoff, with both sides tapping at their own rulesets.
The best resolution that could resolve this sticking point would be by ASLEF having a formal ballot on the offer, even though they know what the result would be. But this would at least put the ball back into RDG's / DfT's court. And quite honestly I can't see why their execs aren't seeking to find a way to enable it.
Of course none of this means a revised offer might be made, but it could at least open the door to a deal similar to RMT's, that is no strings up to the 2023 award, and new negotiations on future ones.
newtownmgr
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The potential issue is one or two companies already do some of what the RDG want. If they vote to accept a deal where they lose basically nothing it could lead to a situation where drivers on the vast majority of companies lose out massively on agreements that drivers elsewhere have received large payments.
Basically you would have drivers on all companies with the same contract but with differences in pay of up to £15k a year. That will not solve the issue.
They realised that with the RMT yet can’t seem to get it or just basically don’t want to get it with ASLEF.
The government state that ASLEF are making it political yet it’s this government that are doing so.
Hope this makes sense.
Bantamzen
Established Member
Well of course its political, the Treasury effectively bankroll the industry these days. But the point remains, RDG stipulated that the 2023 offer be put to the membership, but ASLEF's execs took the decision for them thereby not meeting the RDG conditions for any future talks. After a year of stalemate it's clear RDG / DfT are not coming back to the table until the offer is put to ASLEF members, even though they know just as well as the ASLEF exec that it will be rejected. Yeah its a political move that ASLEF now will not, or cannot move on from. Who knows? Maybe the government did their homework and painted ASLEF into a corner, knowing that the exec wouldn't put it to their members and couldn't then overturn their decision not to (its a long shot, but occasionally even politicians bowl a sneaky curve ball).
So the options are these, have the ballot, reject the offer and bat the ball back to RDG / DfT, or stay where they are on a technicality and hope that a future government might one day come to them with something better. Its well worth noting that the latter is not assured, and could still be 12 months or more away. There is also another possible outcome that nobody here as far as I can tell has considered. The government could simply instruct RDG to completely withdraw the offer just before the General Election, meaning there's nothing on the table for the next incoming government to take forward, effectively restarting the whole process and possibly delaying it further. That would be even sneakier than locking ASLEF execs into their own union rules...
newtownmgr
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Aslef were never going to put an offer out to ballot that would screw a vast majority of its membership. Regardless if whether they put the offer out (it was for 2022 by the way) or not. The membership,knowing what was in the offer have reballoted twice with unanimous yes votes both time to continue with industrial action. That should tell even the most blinkered out there that the offer was totally unacceptable.
Jamesrob637
Established Member
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Is there a thread entitled "what's the Foxtrot ing point of MSL?
It might as well not exist
It might as well not exist
Ashfordian6
Member
Are you just now waking up and realising how most recent Government policy has been about narrative and trying to win the votes of the gullible, rather than good, sensible policy making?
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Bantamzen
Established Member
A ballot on the offer does not "screw" its membership if the membership votes against it, which I'm sure they would. And having ballots to continue strike action without having one to vote on the offer itself seems to be a bit upside down to me. It seems that ASLEF voted to continue striking because no new offer has been made, even though the current offer hasn't been voted on as asked for by RDG before any further negotiations could take place.
Bottom line, everyone knows a ballot on the offer will return a resounding "Nope", but that official "Nope" is what has to be returned to RDG to open negotiations again.
Ashfordian6
Member
You are being obtuse here, possibly deliberately which is not a good look!
If train drivers wanted to accept the offer they would simply have voted to not continue striking. That would have by default caused the offer to be accepted as the dispute would have ceased.
I don't see the point. There would be a considerable cost involved to get the results of a ballot that is already a foregone conclusion, obviously so.
And in backing down it creates a precedent - the DfT could amend the offer by 0.1%, claim it's a new offer and demand another ballot and refuse any further negotiation until that's happened.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
I suspect Daft believe that as RMT members agreed the offer for the TOCs and NR, despite members supporting strike action, ASLEF members would behave the same. Six months ago that may have been a reasonable position with DafT but given ASLEF members continue to vote in overwhelming numbers to renew the strike action mandate its pretty obvious that pressing for that ballot won't deliver a yes outcome so groundhog day carry's on.
What i do hope is happening is that both Whelan and Haigh are seeking each other out to determine a way forward if Labour come to power at next general election so this gets sorted as the only way the industry moves forward to reduce the burden on the taxpayer is to have a stable railway that maximise fares revenue.
Bantamzen
Established Member
I think you are missing the point, RDG (as I understand it) asked for a ballot on the revised offer, not if members wanted to strike. That hasn't happened, so as petty as this requirement it is ASLEF have not met the conditions set of them. If they have the ballot, they meet this condition, and possibly more talks can take place. At the end of the day the government get to sit on all that backdated money, and clearly don't care about the strikes so its really up to ASLEF to try and get things moving.
Again, voting on the offer does not mean accepting the offer. If the membership turns it down, it's turned down. I don't understand why this confusion exists?
It’s been explained already.
Arranging a ballot on the offer costs ASLEF a lot of money. The offer is inevitably rejected by the membership.
The RDG/DfT revises its offer by 0.1% and demands another ballot. ASLEF then incurs yet another significant cost and the RDG/DfT can get a few months of no industrial action whilst its voted on.
The DfT is just using ASLEFs position not to ballot on the offer as a pathetic excuse
Bantamzen
Established Member
Maybe, but how much has been spent on subsequent ballots on striking instead of voting on the offer? It may well be a pathetic excuse from RDG/DfT, but it is equally so from ASLEF. They know what they need to do, and they can choose, or not to do it. Personally if this were my union, I'd be a bit peeved that my union was blocking a possible move forward in negotiations. Just to reiterate, RDG/DfT are not interested if ASLEF members want to strike, they want to know if the membership officially accepts or rejects the offer. That is the position as it stands.
And again, none of this worries the government. Those increasing amounts of the outstanding backpay are sitting in their coffers, and the government could still withdraw it altogether. If that happens, then ASLEF will have to start all over again with a new government who will have to re-cost backdated deals, potentially in the light of being in a very difficult financial background. A sweet deal from Labour, which I suspect ASLEF are now holding out for, may not be nailed on.
ASLEF members continue to vote for strike action. If they wanted to accept the offer they would vote no to industrial action.
The DfT don’t want a settlement.
Bantamzen
Established Member
I've tried to explain it, the DfT don't want to know if ASLEF want to strike. They want a vote on their 2023 offer.
Goldfish62
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I'd actually say they simply don't care. I really do think as far as they're concerned ASLEF could carry on striking for the next 100 years and it wouldn't make any difference.
Ashfordian6
Member
No, it's just the point you are trying to make is silly and irrelevant.
The money you think the Government are saving on back pay is dwarfed by the economic damage this scorched early policy the Government are pursuing. And it is the taxpayer, you and I, that are picking up the tab for their idiocy.
Maybe if the government are insisting that unions put all offers to the members, they should foot the bill for these ballots. Then it may result in sensible offers being made.
The DfT know it’ll be rejected. They’re just using the public.
If we want to accept that offer we would simply vote no to any further industrial action. It really is that simple.
Snow1964
Established Member
Clearly failed at getting any award for 2022 or 2023 (so far)
I guess at some stage they will have to accept if they want a 2024 award this year, will either have to combine them, or abandon the earlier two and accept one for whole period.
Bantamzen
Established Member
I've tried to explain it, the DfT don't want to know if ASLEF want to strike. They want a vote on their 2023 offer.
Its also a condition set by RDG / DfT. So it really doesn't matter what anyone thinks of it, not having the ballot on the offer has stalled the process.
Hey don't be having a go at me, I didn't make the rules of the game. I'm just trying to point out the issue here. You don't have to like it, but it is the reason why nothing has happened for a year.
Of course they know it will.
Again, RDG/DfT are not interested if you are going to strike. They want to know if you are going to accept the offer. It may well be the same thing for most, but it is a technicality that they've stuck to for a year. At this point ASLEF really ought to just bite the bullet and have the ballot. Then they can see where the land lies with DfT in view of the offer being rejected.
Or they could hang on until after the GE and hope that Labour come crashing through the door with an acceptable offer, which may not happen. And it could be worse if this government pull the current one. Think about it, would you want to be the Transport Secretary who had to find funds for 3-5 years backpay, and face the inevitable backlash from many areas of the media? Not having the ballot now could just risk leaving ASLEF in a much worse bargaining position.
Sly Old Fox
Member
It’s been talked about at my place that ASLEF should put the offer out to ballot. It’s the only way that any progress could possibly be made. A near 100% rejection would send a stronger message back than a fifth vote for industrial action.
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