Rail services to be included as part of Bee Network: how should this be achieved?

Bantamzen · 23 Mar 2024

RT4038 said:
I very much doubt that the Mayor of Greater Manchester will be given sole control (and the funding) of rail routes that run very far outside their boundary. Control of the route within the boundary - quite possibly - within some pretty tight confines of what can and can't be done to affect cross boundary travel. I would not expect the Mayor to be funding changes / improvements (either to service levels or fare structure) outside of the boundary either.

I agree. When this was first announced, I could almost hear the squeals of delight and the boxes of Crayolas being opened in preparation for Manc-Bahn map drawing. But what seems to be coming is not that, just a way to better integrate ticketing across Manchester. Mayor Burnham isn't going to take control of the heavy rail network and put big signs up in tepid Temu Yellow stating "You shall not pass!" on the rails at the borders. Hopefully they get the model right, and it can be replicated across the country, allowing for better local transport integration along with the other cross area services running as always.

RailUK Forums

The exile · 23 Mar 2024

Bletchleyite said:
And Merseyrail goes into Lancashire and Cheshire.

This is a non-issue.

It’s a non-issue provided that suitable checks and balances are built in to prevent too much parochialism.

Starmill · 23 Mar 2024

Kite159 said:
Happy for your council tax to increase to cover the cost of someone to sit all day at the likes of Moston?

If Moston had ticket gates, pay as you go, a modern station building and a gateline assistant yes of course? Why not, that'd be a hundred times better than the mess that's there currently, and would be used a lot more.

The exile said:
It’s a non-issue provided that suitable checks and balances are built in to prevent too much parochialism.

There's not really any evidence of this being a problem.

Bletchleyite said:
More sensibly there'll hopefully be a zonal product for all modes so instead of paying by mode you can pay by the area/length of journey you are making.

Single mode tickets do not make any sense at all in an integrated system. The German systems don't have them for one. They cause pressure to design sub-optimal networks.

The German law allows for them to levy local taxes to fund transport. The GMCA can't levy anything except for council tax via the districts, which is heavily restricted by Westminster, and in any case is fully spoken for. Without the appropriate subsidy, you can't price mode agnostic tickets appropriately.

The local authority could deploy workplace parking levies or council car parking charges, or a tiny handful of other similar things which councils are permitted by the law of England and Wales like certain accommodation levies. But it's the Combined Authority that will be paying out the subsidy so they can't rely on that power unless freely given to them by the LA.

Realistically the subsidy for these services needs to be collected through more meaningful measures such as payroll taxes and land value taxes. Tinkering with tourist levies and car parking charges won't cut it.

misar · 23 Mar 2024

Bantamzen said:
Hopefully they get the model right, and it can be replicated across the country, allowing for better local transport integration along with the other cross area services running as always.

London may not have a perfect integrated system but it has been improved by TfL over many years and it is difficult to see Manchester or anywhere else doing much better within the present financial constraints.

Contrary to some comments in this thread, contactless (PAYG) payments with daily and weekly caps apply to all journeys by all modes of transport (even the river bus service) between destinations within the Greater London travel zones. That includes all national rail lines except for a few airport express and high speed services. Some TfL operated services (bus, tube, overground or Elizabeth line) extend significantly outside Greater London but retain TfL fares and caps for the entire journey.

Starmill · 23 Mar 2024

misar said:
That includes all national rail lines except for a few airport express and high speed services. Some TfL operated services (bus, tube, overground or Elizabeth line) extend significantly outside Greater London but retain TfL fares and caps for the entire journey

The caps aren't very effective for the stations Merstham - Horley inclusive of course. Traditional tickets are generally cheaper, often substantially so. Also, for some journeys to and from this area traditional tickets cost rather less for singles and returns. As such I'd only support a system if it managed this out. Unfortunately it's not only those stations either, as it's also happened to places like Brookmans Park, Shenfield and Hertford, but in slightly different ways. There's no sign of long-delayed Project Oval fixing these just yet either.

TUC · 23 Mar 2024

HSTEd said:
GMCA do not advertise an annual bus pass for Bee Network.
There is only one annual option, which is the County ticket valid on all modes.

Once the bus zone I use joins Bee Network I will be stuck either spending £1544 on that or endlessly forgetting to buy 28 day bus passes (and spending £1150 for the privilege). I currently have to pay Stagecoach more like ~~£800.~~

EDIT: Correction, my Stagecoach annual pass cost £700, so it will be more than double.

That is the point that PTEs and local authorities seeking all operator passes seem not to understand. If one's travel to work route is served by a single operator, then stopping single operator bus passes in favour of an all operator one then this will almost inevitably be more expensiv. How is that meant to attract people to use public transport?

krus_aragon · 23 Mar 2024

RT4038 said:
There is no freebie money pot about to come our way ( reparations from Italy over the Roman invasion?)

Would Scotland be denied Barnett consequentials, because of Hadrian's Wall?

misar · 23 Mar 2024

Starmill said:
The caps aren't very effective for the stations Merstham - Horley inclusive of course. Traditional tickets are generally cheaper, often substantially so. Also, for some journeys to and from this area traditional tickets cost rather less for singles and returns. As such I'd only support a system if it managed this out. Unfortunately it's not only those stations either, as it's also happened to places like Brookmans Park, Shenfield and Hertford, but in slightly different ways. There's no sign of long-delayed Project Oval fixing these just yet either.

All your examples are outside the London fare zones and are not served by TfL operated services but contactless (PAYG) is still available from those stations. Fares for single journeys are the same as or less than traditional tickets. For example, the National Rail journey planner shows Horley to Salfords at 8am on Monday as £2.90 contactless and £3.10 standard. Today is £2.40 contactless but the planner offers only the same standard ticket option. The contactless cap is irrelevant unless you spend sufficient within a day or week to exceed it.

Starmill · 23 Mar 2024

misar said:
All your examples are outside the London fare zones and are not served by TfL operated services but contactless (PAYG) is still available from those stations.

I'm not sure what who operates the service has to do with it, given the proposal isn't establishing a new TOC like TfL Rail or London Overground were. And I know they're outside that's specifically the part of your post I was responding to. Capping works very poorly for say an Iver - Slough commuter too, I did say the list wasn't exhaustive.

misar said:
The contactless cap is irrelevant unless you spend sufficient within a day or week to exceed it.

It's enormously relevant because, unlike account based ITSO solutions, it doesn't offer the cheaper option out of the season ticket price or pay as you go cap.

misar said:
Fares for single journeys are the same as or less than traditional tickets. For example, the National Rail journey planner shows Horley to Salfords at 8am on Monday as £2.90 contactless and £3.10 standard.

If you reread my post you'll see I wasn't claiming otherwise. What I was saying was that the system has been devised badly from first principles there, and shouldn't be just copied. For example it leads to things like Horley to Epsom, which is £11 paper single or £11.10 contactless.

Djgr · 23 Mar 2024

TUC said:
That is the point that PTEs and local authorities seeking all operator passes seem not to understand. If one's travel to work route is served by a single operator, then stopping single operator bus passes in favour of an all operator one then this will almost inevitably be more expensiv. How is that meant to attract people to use public transport?

Because the winners that come a sensibly integrated public transport system far outweigh the losers

misar · 23 Mar 2024

Starmill said:
I'm not sure what who operates the service has to do with it, given the proposal isn't establishing a new TOC like TfL Rail or London Overground were. And I know they're outside that's specifically the part of your post I was responding to. Capping works very poorly for say an Iver - Slough commuter too, I did say the list wasn't exhaustive.

I mentioned the operator because the London price cap only applies to rail stations within fare zones 1-6 except for a service operated by TfL to stations outside the zones. Extending the range of contactless stations (Oval) is useful for commuters but it is nonsense to expect a Greater London price cap to apply to rail journeys outside its boundaries.

Starmill said:
It's enormously relevant because, unlike account based ITSO solutions, it doesn't offer the cheaper option out of the season ticket price or pay as you go cap.

You can still buy TfL (or national rail) season tickets for up to 12 months if you wish but no system can predict how effectively you will use it. They are unsuitable for many commuters due to working patterns and the large advance payments required for the cheapest options.

Starmill said:
If you reread my post you'll see I wasn't claiming otherwise. What I was saying was that the system has been devised badly from first principles there, and shouldn't be just copied. For example it leads to things like Horley to Epsom, which is £11 paper single or £11.10 contactless.

Every complex system may have anomalies. I doubt many users other than you will lose sleep over that one.

norbitonflyer · 23 Mar 2024

Starmill said:
The caps aren't very effective for the stations Merstham - Horley inclusive of course. Traditional tickets are generally cheaper, often substantially so. Also, for some journeys to and from this area traditional tickets cost rather less for singles and returns. As such I'd only support a system if it managed this out. Unfortunately it's not only those stations either, as it's also happened to places like Brookmans Park, Shenfield and Hertford, but in slightly different ways. There's no sign of long-delayed Project Oval fixing these just yet either.

Point to point seasons are still available on TOC-operated routes even within Greater London - at least they were when I last used one in 2019, and I don't think there has been a sigbnificant change since then. Mine was £1000 pa less than the Z1-6 Travelcard I would have otherwise used, and as i worked within walking distance of the main line terminus I rarely used buses or Tube - I had an Oyster and a Borisbike subscription for occasional travel within central London. (Season was of course valid for all London Terminals, so I could get to many parts of the City or Westminster just using the season)

childwallblues · 24 Mar 2024

TUC said:
What is meant by 'Rochdale stopping services'? If this means that those services that travel non-stop from Rochdale-Manchester Victoria are excluded I can the potential for all kinds of confusion.

Rochdale stopping services in ny mind is the Rochdale-Clitheroe service which disappears north of Bolton over the border into Lancashire. Also there is the Blackburn to Headbolt Lane service which starts in Lancashire, then crosses into West Yorkshire, Greater Manchester, Lancashire (again) and finally Merseyside at Rainford.

Xenophon PCDGS · 24 Mar 2024

Bantamzen said:
I agree. When this was first announced, I could almost hear the squeals of delight and the boxes of Crayolas being opened in preparation for Manc-Bahn map drawing. But what seems to be coming is not that, just a way to better integrate ticketing across Manchester. Mayor Burnham isn't going to take control of the heavy rail network and put big signs up in tepid Temu Yellow stating "You shall not pass!" on the rails at the borders.

Why am I suddenly reminded of that 1949 film..."Passport to Pimlico"

A0wen · 24 Mar 2024

Ken H said:
My beef is that many services that start in Manchester end out well away. Manchester- Rochdale services all go on to Burnley and Blackburn which are in Lancashire. Or go on to Halifax, Bradford and Leeds which are in Yorkshire. Why should a mayor have jurisdiction over services operating over a vast tract of Northern England.
This is SO different from the London Overground which operates wholly in the London Mayors jurisdiction.

Bit in bold - Watford and Bushey aren't in the Mayor's jurisdiction yet are served by Overground.

frodshamfella · 24 Mar 2024

507020 said:
But does the Central Line in Essex receive the same frequency as the Central Line in Greater London and how does the full frequency extending all the way to the terminus compare between Epping and e.g. Cockfosters on lines that stay entirely within Greater London? I am aware some services terminate at Arnos Grove but not familiar with the Central Line service pattern.

I have also seen it suggested that TfGM’s contactless scheme will extend as far as Southport simply because the majority of the route is in Greater Manchester.

I would say only half was in GM, as.it ends at Wigan.

geoffk · 24 Mar 2024

My friends in Smithy Bridge and Littleborough will be feeling left out! But we have to start somewhere and perhaps these anomalies will be dealt with in due course.

GardenRail · 25 Mar 2024

Some trains painted in Bee Network livery, how exciting.

Xenophon PCDGS · 25 Mar 2024

GardenRail said:
Some trains painted in Bee Network livery, how exciting.

Ever get the feeling that a thwarted modern version of George Hudson wants to leave his mark on the railway history of Britain?

GardenRail · 25 Mar 2024

Xenophon PCDGS said:
Ever get the feeling that a thwarted modern version of George Hudson wants to leave his mark on the railway history of Britain?

Yes, most weeks.

WestAnglian · 25 Mar 2024

Kite159 said:
More empire building by Burnham, what will change other than the stations getting a lick of paint and maybe getting staffed? The only difference will be that you can use a contactless card to travel within that area rather than 'paper' tickets with a price cap including the trams & buses

This sounds like What Did the Romans Ever Do For Us!
You say 'what will chage' then immediate list three things that would be changes for the better. People made the same (politically-motivated) comments when TfL took over rail services as the Overground, then services were vastly improved. Let's hope the same thing happens in Manchester.

infobleep · 25 Mar 2024

pokemonsuper9 said:
The ticket activators for Reddish South and Denton would probably cost more than they would ever earn (with the current level of service), they don't even have ticket machines (as of the March 2022 streetview).

So will we one day read about someone being penalty fared, if they operate that scheme, for not having a valid ticket on the service when they thought their contactless pay as you go would be valid? Or maybe details taken instead and an out of court settlement.

norbitonflyer · 25 Mar 2024

infobleep said:
So will we one day read about someone being penalty fared, if they operate that scheme, for not having a valid ticket on the service when they thought their contactless pay as you go would be valid? Or maybe details taken instead and an out of court settlement.

It is not clear whether contactless will be available throughout Greater Manchester or only on the "Priority Lines" If the latter, there will be a number of anomalies where contactless is available at two stations but not on the direct services between them such as
Wigan - Victoria (via Hindley),
Victoria - Stalybridge,
Stalybridge - Stockport,
Stockport - Altrincham,
Ashburys - Romiley (via Reddiish North).

This is actually possible in the London PAYG area, as both Reading and Gatwick have readers but contactless fares are not valid via Guildford.

If there are stations without readers, like Reddish South, it would presumably be possible to have portable readers carried by on board staff, as were used by conductors on the now-withdrawn 15H Routemaster service in London.

DarloRich · 25 Mar 2024

RT4038 said:
I am constantly amazed - no frankly saddened and disappointed - that so many posters criticise (often rightly) the current public transport offer, comparing it unfavourably with systems elsewhere in the world, and then when someone attempts to make changes to improve they are dubbed 'empire building' or schemes are shouted down because someone, somewhere loses out.

Agree - a very sensible post. I wonder if the colour of the rosette is a problem for some commentators. Would they think the same if it was Andy Street in the West Midlands.................

norbitonflyer · 25 Mar 2024

DarloRich said:
I wonder if the colour of the rosette is a problem for some commentators. Would they think the same if it was Andy Street in the West Midlands.................

Of of the rose! - public transport in general is not as comprehensive on the other side of the Pennines

Starmill · 25 Mar 2024

misar said:
I mentioned the operator because the London price cap only applies to rail stations within fare zones 1-6 except for a service operated by TfL to stations outside the zones. Extending the range of contactless stations (Oval) is useful for commuters but it is nonsense to expect a Greater London price cap to apply to rail journeys outside its boundaries.

Why not? The system has been procured to operate far and away outside of London, and specified for non-London journeys. What does the county have to do with the cap?

misar said:
You can still buy TfL (or national rail) season tickets for up to 12 months if you wish but no system can predict how effectively you will use it. They are unsuitable for many commuters due to working patterns and the large advance payments required for the cheapest options.

Why would it be necessary to predict anything? An annual cap can apply without a problem, using the same principle as the weekly caps.

misar said:
Every complex system may have anomalies. I doubt many users other than you will lose sleep over that one.

It's not an anomaly. It's a common theme which runs throughout. For example Horley - Croydon is £11.60 eticket Anytime Day Return or £12.60 two peak Contactless singles.

I think you've fundamentally misunderstood how the system operates today, I'm afraid.

Greybeard33 · 25 Mar 2024

norbitonflyer said:
It is not clear whether contactless will be available throughout Greater Manchester or only on the "Priority Lines" If the latter, there will be a number of anomalies where contactless is available at two stations but not on the direct services between them such as
Wigan - Victoria (via Hindley),
Victoria - Stalybridge,
Stalybridge - Stockport,
Stockport - Altrincham,
Ashburys - Romiley (via Reddiish North).

This is actually possible in the London PAYG area, as both Reading and Gatwick have readers but contactless fares are not valid via Guildford.

If there are stations without readers, like Reddish South, it would presumably be possible to have portable readers carried by on board staff, as were used by conductors on the now-withdrawn 15H Routemaster service in London.

Wigan - Victoria via Hindley and Victoria - Stalybridge are both part of the Southport - Stalybridge route. Indeed Victoria - Stalybridge is one of the two lines in the initial 2025 pilot scheme, along with Piccadilly - Glossop. There appears to be an error on the map (post #46), which shows the Stalybridge service routed via Piccadilly and Guide Bridge rather than Victoria and Ashton. AFAIK there are no plans, nor capacity, for a Northern service on this route.

Not included is Wigan - Victoria via Atherton, presumably because the Atherton line is currently served only by longer distance regional services (Wigan - Leeds via Brighouse and Headbolt Lane to Blackburn via Todmorden).

The announcement implies that, on some lines, tap in/out users will be required to use only specific services on that line. "Airport stopping services" appears to rule out not only TPE and TfW services but also the semi-fast Northern services to Blackpool, Barrow and Windermere, for a journey from the Airport to Piccadilly. Similarly for Rochdale to Victoria, "stopping services" implies only the 2tph from Rochdale to Blackburn/Clitheroe (which call at Castleton, Mills Hill and Moston) not the 4tph fast. Applying the same principle to the other routes would mean that for Bolton to Manchester only the hourly Stalybridge stopper would be permitted. And for Stockport to Piccadilly, Northern services from Stoke and Chester would be ruled out, as well as all the Avanti, XC, TPE and EMR services.

I do not see how this service based system could be made to work. Surely simpler to make tap in/out valid for any service, or combination of services, between a pair of stations equipped with readers?

Starmill · 25 Mar 2024

Greybeard33 said:
I do not see how this service based system could be made to work.

I agree, I don't think there's any realistic possibility of that working. Maybe it's all badly drafted though.

RT4038 · 25 Mar 2024

DarloRich said:
Agree - a very sensible post. I wonder if the colour of the rosette is a problem for some commentators. Would they think the same if it was Andy Street in the West Midlands.................

There may be some (hence my comment that the overarching politics need to be left aside), and I think it unlikely to be a concern if it were Andy Street (City regions being ringed by conservative 'shire' areas occurs for a reason, and is not just a UK phenomenon) and I understand why that is. Likewise if opposition was based on increased or redirected public expenditure, as each individual have their own opinions on where the line of that may be. But so much criticism doesn't appear to emanate from that direction at all - a mixture of individuals citing how their particular niche fare may well be increased, through 'if it isn't gold plated ('Swiss'?) to eliminate every anomaly or idiosyncracy then it is not worth having' .

If we don't walk first, we are never going to run!

Starmill said:
Maybe it's all badly drafted though.

More than likely, and I don't think too much store should be read into fine details at this stage.

Xenophon PCDGS · 25 Mar 2024

Starmill said:
I agree, I don't think there's any realistic possibility of that working. Maybe it's all badly drafted though.

Who do you feel were the main bodies involved into the drafting the item in question?

Rail services to be included as part of Bee Network: how should this be achieved?

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