Used 16-17 railcard for over a year (I am over 20). I shouldn’t have. Been stopped and admitted my current & past faults.

Hi all, I hope you are well. I have been reading a lot of the threads here I can tell there is a lot of expert advice and everyone is very honest. I am not expecting sympathy lol and I know I do not deserve it. I’ve learnt my lesson and will not do this again but with an obvious consequence. I understand that I’ve made a lot of big errors.

I have been using a 16-17 railcard for the past year or so. I am in my 20’s. I have been doing this as I have to help all my family out meaning I do not have enough money. I have told work this and they do not seem to understand. As a result, I’ve been having to buy these tickets to have a bit of money at the end of the month. No excuses though and I understand whether this goes to a conviction or not, they will not care what the reason was that I have committed the offense.

I was stopped and admitted to not buying the valid ticket, I also admitted to my past errors since they said they would check my Trainline history. I believe lying would have made things much worse. I was also recorded I believe and everything was written down. I also signed it.

I had a previous court letter last year because my phone ran out of battery and I wasn’t able to show my e-ticket. In that scenario, they gave me a fare evasion ticket and said to appeal it when the letter came.
Today this was brought up when they searched my details.

I do not know what the outcome will be but I would much rather pay any fine that comes my way, even if it means asking friends to help. I do not want this to go to court but I believe it will be based upon what they said today and my past. Over a year of using this railcard could lead to serious consequences.

I would do anything to avoid a criminal record or prison time. I do not want to lose my job or have this affect my future forever. Thankfully I haven’t had any major issues with the law apart from the train issue last year and points on my driver's license.

I have attached a copy of the letter I got today. Based on this letter, does anyone have any ideas on where this could go, please?

I will provide updates as I get more information or when the letters arrive but I want to get ahead of this as soon as possible. Thank you very much

Also to add, if they really will be looking at my past Trainline tickets, there is an option to ‘delete my account’ on the app. This states all my previous data and tickets will be deleted. I haven’t done it but I assume this will make the matters much worse? Or do people think this may be a good idea?

jbwary97 said:

Also to add, if they really will be looking at my past Trainline tickets, there is an option to ‘delete my account’ on the app. This states all my previous data and tickets will be deleted. I haven’t done it but I assume this will make the matters much worse? Or do people think this may be a good idea?

Click to expand...

Others will be around shortly, but in relation to this
Just because your account is "deleted" when you use the button doesn't mean the data is, GDPR allows companies to keep data for legal reasons

methecooldude said:

Others will be around shortly, but in relation to this
Just because your account is "deleted" when you use the button doesn't mean the data is, GDPR allows companies to keep data for legal reasons

Click to expand...

Thanks for the response. Yes, I won’t do that then. I’ll just have to wait and see what happens now. Any advice on people to talk to now?

When you say you've told work and they don't understand, do you mean you have told them about being short of money, or about the fraud?

Assuming they do investigate your Trainline history, the best you can probably hope for is a settlement based on the all the fares evaded, together with an admin fee of a couple of hundred pounds. It's usually the case (but not always) that the fares evaded is calculated on the adult anytime single fare for each journey (so two if you bought a return ticket), with no offset for the fare you paid.

If you've been doing this for a couple of years then that could be a substantial sum - the current Grove Park to Cannon St anytime single is £6.70. You'll be expected to have that ready to pay within 14 days of the offer being made, so you might want to look back through your Trainline account, and work out roughly how much that could be.

If you cooperate with their enquiries and are suitably contrite and apologetic (but not using AI - the wording sticks out a mile as being completely over the top and not in day to day English) then it's likely you will be offered a settlement. Though there is a risk that the level of fraud is enough for them to justify a prosecution - you'll have to wait and see what the letter says when it arrives, at which point we can help you with a response.

The advice this forum gives is to wait for the letter to arrive then upload on here with your personal details redacted (obscured).

Forum members can then give advice tailored to the issue(s) South Eastern raise and require responding to.

A few other points:

1. Only a court can impose a fine. A prison sentence is not a sanction which can normally be imposed for this type of offence.
2. If this matter ends up in court and you are convicted then you will receive a criminal record and will have to pay a fine, victim surcharge and the amount the train operating company seek. (the fares not paid).
3. Train Operating Companies offer an out of court settlement in many cases. This is the cost of the fares avoided (based on the full single fare with no railcard or other discounts applied) plus an administration fee of between £100 - £200.
4. The TOC will research your booking history to establish how many occasions you have avoided the fare and thus calculate that part of the out of court settlement.
5. TOCs usually offer out of court settlements to passengers who engage with the process, demonstrate their contrition and commitment to paying the appropriate fares in the future.
6. We do not recommend engaging a solicitor at this stage. Most cases can be resolved without the services of a solicitor but more complex cases or charges of fraud may require legal representation.
7. The period of time you have been doing this for does give cause for concern. It may escalate the course taken by South Eastern into a court prosecution but until the letter arrives there is no way of telling.

Welcome to the forum!

There's little you can do until the letter from Southeastern arrives. When it does come back here and post a copy of it in this thread (but do remove any personal details and case reference numbers) along with your draft reply and we will be happy to proof read it for you.

Southeastern usually offer to settle out of court but there are some aggravating factors in your case which could make this harder:

- You've come to their attention before (when was this and what was the outcome? Was it Southeastern or another train company? Did you pay the Penalty or is it still outstanding?)
- You've been evading your fares on an industrial scale over a sustained period of time

As others have said it's worth researching your Trainline account to find out how long you've been doing this and calculate how much you're likely to owe. If you are offered a settlement it will need to be paid quickly so you will need to work out how you are going to raise the money.

To confirm, deleting your Trainline account does not delete the transaction history held by Trainline.

Brissle Girl said:

When you say you've told work and they don't understand, do you mean you have told them about being short of money, or about the fraud?

Assuming they do investigate your Trainline history, the best you can probably hope for is a settlement based on the all the fares evaded, together with an admin fee of a couple of hundred pounds. It's usually the case (but not always) that the fares evaded is calculated on the adult anytime single fare for each journey (so two if you bought a return ticket), with no offset for the fare you paid.

If you've been doing this for a couple of years then that could be a substantial sum - the current Grove Park to Cannon St anytime single is £6.70. You'll be expected to have that ready to pay within 14 days of the offer being made, so you might want to look back through your Trainline account, and work out roughly how much that could be.

If you cooperate with their enquiries and are suitably contrite and apologetic (but not using AI - the wording sticks out a mile as being completely over the top and not in day to day English) then it's likely you will be offered a settlement. Though there is a risk that the level of fraud is enough for them to justify a prosecution - you'll have to wait and see what the letter says when it arrives, at which point we can help you with a response.

Click to expand...

Hi thanks for your response. Regarding work I meant not having enough funds to come to the office.

Regarding the rest I’ll say worst case scenario 50 - 100 times in the past year. I’ll just say 100 so I’m not surprised if i get a fine and it’s a substantial amount. So that would be £600-700 in total?

When you say cooperate, are there steps before they decide if it goes to court? Thanks

Titfield said:

The advice this forum gives is to wait for the letter to arrive then upload on here with your personal details redacted (obscured).

Forum members can then give advice tailored to the issue(s) South Eastern raise and require responding to.

A few other points:

1. Only a court can impose a fine. A prison sentence is not a sanction which can normally be imposed for this type of offence.
2. If this matter ends up in court and you are convicted then you will receive a criminal record and will have to pay a fine, victim surcharge and the amount the train operating company seek. (the fares not paid).
3. Train Operating Companies offer an out of court settlement in many cases. This is the cost of the fares avoided (based on the full single fare with no railcard or other discounts applied) plus an administration fee of between £100 - £200.
4. The TOC will research your booking history to establish how many occasions you have avoided the fare and thus calculate that part of the out of court settlement.
5. TOCs usually offer out of court settlements to passengers who engage with the process, demonstrate their contrition and commitment to paying the appropriate fares in the future.
6. We do not recommend engaging a solicitor at this stage. Most cases can be resolved without the services of a solicitor but more complex cases or charges of fraud may require legal representation.
7. The period of time you have been doing this for does give cause for concern. It may escalate the course taken by South Eastern into a court prosecution but until the letter arrives there is no way of telling.

Click to expand...

Thank you, yes I will wait until I get a letter and then I can provide some more information.

When you say “who engage with the process, demonstrate their contrition and commitment to paying the appropriate fares in the future” what kind of steps does that involve please?

Also, regarding the criminal record, is that a permanent record that will always flag up in background checks? Many thanks

Hadders said:

Welcome to the forum!

There's little you can do until the letter from Southeastern arrives. When it does come back here and post a copy of it in this thread (but do remove any personal details and case reference numbers) along with your draft reply and we will be happy to proof read it for you.

Southeastern usually offer to settle out of court but there are some aggravating factors in your case which could make this harder:

- You've come to their attention before (when was this and what was the outcome? Was it Southeastern or another train company? Did you pay the Penalty or is it still outstanding?)
- You've been evading your fares on an industrial scale over a sustained period of time

As others have said it's worth researching your Trainline account to find out how long you've been doing this and calculate how much you're likely to owe. If you are offered a settlement it will need to be paid quickly so you will need to work out how you are going to raise the money.

To confirm, deleting your Trainline account does not delete the transaction history held by Trainline.

Click to expand...

Thanks, yes I won’t be deleting the account. Also last year I had my e-ticket on my phone but ran out of battery. I got a letter asking to pay a penalty charge, so I just paid it off instead of appealing. This was with southeastern

jbwary97 said:

Regarding the rest I’ll say worst case scenario 50 - 100 times in the past year. I’ll just say 100 so I’m not surprised if i get a fine and it’s a substantial amount. So that would be £600-700 in total?

Click to expand...

Just to clarify a fine can only be imposed by a court as a punishment upon conviction. You don't want to pay a fine, you want an out of court settlement.

Paying an out of court settlement might feel like a fine, but technically it isn't!

jbwary97 said:

Thanks, yes I won’t be deleting the account. Also last year I had my e-ticket on my phone but ran out of battery. I got a letter asking to pay a penalty charge, so I just paid it off instead of appealing. This was with southeastern

Click to expand...

Thanks for confirming. Good that it's been paid and isn't still outstanding.

Re cooperation/engagement etc you’ll find plenty of example letters if you browse the Disputes board as to how to draft a good letter (and equally how not to - hint, don’t use AI).

And of course simply responding in a timely manner when you are contacted is a good start - judging by how willing most operators (excl TfL) are to offer settlements, a large number go to court, which we suspect is because people ignore the letter in the hope it will go away.

Okay thanks both, I’ll make sure to take a look at those example letters and respond as soon as I get one