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Ticket machines: Why has QWERTY been abandoned?

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Christmas

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I have noticed that on every ticket vending machine that I use that the traditional QWERTY layout of the keys has been replaced by an ABC version. In my experience this actually slows down my interaction with the interface. Is there any logical reason why the TVM providers have changed this?

Friends who are drivers have also said that their HMI set up screens on modern units are also ABC rather than QWERTY.
 
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randyrippley

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not everyone is a typist, especially older users
however you look at it,QWERTY keyboards are not very logical to use
 
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yorkie

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randyrippley said:
not everyone is a typist, especially older users
however you look at it,QWERTY keyboards are not very logical to use
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The vast majority of the population are familiar with QWERTY keyboards; you may claim it's illogical, but I'd like to see you type quicker with your choice of keyboard, than I can on a QWERTY keyboard! ;)

How many people do you think are familiar with ABCDEF keyboards, and not QWERTY keyboards? I think the answer is probably close to zero.

Christmas said:
I have noticed that on every ticket vending machine that I use that the traditional QWERTY layout of the keys has been replaced by an ABC version. In my experience this actually slows down my interaction with the interface. Is there any logical reason why the TVM providers have changed this?
Click to expand...
Perhaps TOCs are trying to deter the use of TVMs, which cost them money to maintain, and encourage the use of e-ticketing? ;)
 
Halish Railway

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Perhaps having letters arranged in order has been deemed more suitable given that part of a ticket machine's role is to type in reference numbers (or letters) to collect pre-paid tickets, a role for which QWERTY keyboards are redundant given that you're not typing out words.
 
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Leaving aside the trope that QWERTY was designed to slow down typists and stop them jamming their typewriters*, I would hazard a guess that it’s to do with programming - it’s quite easy to do a loop and draw buttons for A - Z in a grid, it would be more complicated to do it in a random order like a Qwerty or Dvorak keyboard. Or possibly it’s to differentiate between the User-level interactions with a system and those of a more administrative nature? In any case, I’m fairly sure things developed on the cheap don’t have huge input from UI/UX designers, or those who have to use the system.

*Im told “typewriter” is the longest word it’s possible to spell using only the top line of the keyboard.
 
PupCuff

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randyrippley said:
not everyone is a typist, especially older users
however you look at it,QWERTY keyboards are not very logical to use
Click to expand...
Qwerty keyboards have been around since the typewriter; it's basically the only keyboard layout anyone alive now (typing in English at least) would have ever used.

When a user's suddenly faced with a keyboard with the letters in different places to where they're expecting, it will naturally slow them down. If I selected a different keyboard layout on my phone for instance until I'd used it for a while I would have to look where each letter was, which would take ages longer to type out a message. Likewise on a TVM having the letters in alphabetical order is likely to slow the user down in typing their reference.
 
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kkong

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PyrahnaRanger said:
In any case, I’m fairly sure things developed on the cheap don’t have huge input from UI/UX designers, or those who have to use the system.
Click to expand...

With UK rail industry costs being as they are, I don't think it can be said that TVMs are "on the cheap".

A person working in the industry mentioned work to improve / standardize TVM interfaces on the forum some time ago, but nothing seems to have been put into service yet (that I have seen or heard about).

Which perhaps says something about the (slow) speed of progress in UK rail industry technological innovation.
 
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It’s a very interesting question!

For software development, there are a few arguments that I am aware of that favour the use of ABCDEF keyboards:

  • They tend to be viewed as more accessible as a greater number of people know the order of the alphabet than the order of a QWERTY keyboard.
  • These keyboards also tend to be used when it is important for people to be able to locate letters easily and quickly, such as when entering random strings (like booking references).
  • QWERTY is designed for two-handed typing, and the main advantages of this are lost when using one hand (which is how most people tend to use a TVM)
There are debates over the extent to which the first point in particular is true. Arguably, many people will be more familiar with QWERTY (I certainly imagine this would be true for the younger generations), and I imagine this will only increase with time!
 
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Zamracene749

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PupCuff said:
Qwerty keyboards have been around since the typewriter; it's basically the only keyboard layout anyone alive now (typing in English at least) would have ever used.

When a user's suddenly faced with a keyboard with the letters in different places to where they're expecting, it will naturally slow them down. If I selected a different keyboard layout on my phone for instance until I'd used it for a while I would have to look where each letter was, which would take ages longer to type out a message. Likewise on a TVM having the letters in alphabetical order is likely to slow the user down in typing their reference.
Click to expand...
Agree totally. The older Yokogawa DCS (distributed control system) keyboards used to control the plants where I worked were ABC layout, whereas of course all the PCs etc were QWERTY. Whilst most of the DCS work didn't involve typing, when it did inevitably I'd end up typing everything twice, accompanied by lots of verbal *!+#* characters :) Really annoying in fast paced incidents.
Wasn't QWERTY designed to allow easier two handed typing, based on common letter sequences?
 
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PupCuff said:
Qwerty keyboards have been around since the typewriter; it's basically the only keyboard layout anyone alive now (typing in English at least) would have ever used.

When a user's suddenly faced with a keyboard with the letters in different places to where they're expecting, it will naturally slow them down. If I selected a different keyboard layout on my phone for instance until I'd used it for a while I would have to look where each letter was, which would take ages longer to type out a message. Likewise on a TVM having the letters in alphabetical order is likely to slow the user down in typing their reference.
Click to expand...
The phone is an interesting one for those of us who sent text messages with an ABC type interface with A B and C achieved by pressing the 1 key 1, 2 or 3 times.

I had not actually thought about the TVMs that much, but just told myself it was logical to see ABC for booking references. I am now wondering about the car parks which ask you to type your registration in... I think Tesco parking validation is QWERTY.
 
Llanigraham

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I seem to recall that most of the car park machines I use are now equipped with ABC keyboards.
 
Randomer

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One of my pet hates as well, as much as QWERTY is a strange choice for a modern keyboard, as one of the previous posters noted, it is the one the majority of the population will now be used to.

Huntergreed said:
There are debates over the extent to which the first point in particular is true. Arguably, many people will be more familiar with QWERTY (I certainly imagine this would be true for the younger generations), and I imagine this will only increase with time!
Click to expand...

As an anecdote it not age related a couple of people in there 80's I know can touch type as fast as me thanks to typewriters or a career in computing from before I was born. If anything it seems to be a middle ground age wise of people who didn't learn typing at school or professionally.

I'd also argue that being suitable for two handed use or not isn't as big a thing as people think when people are used to typing one handed or thumbs only on mobile phones using QWERTY anyway.

As much as the ABCDEF layout annoys me the lack of responsiveness or in rare cases calibration from TVM touch screens kind of makes it a moot point.
 
GusB

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If these are on-screen "keyboards", isn't there some merit in allowing people the choice?

Not rail-related, but often when I'm in my local pub I'll go to play some music on the jukebox and find that the previous user has selected "ABC". It's a minor irritation, but no big deal - I just press the "button" that switches it to "QWERTY" and all is well.
 
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In the U.K. the decision to have computer and telephone keypads different was justified, against criticism for unnecessary confusion and complication, by explaining that those using push button telephones (senior managers) would not be those using computer keypads (junior staff).

Even if one is not applying to download one’s tickets using two hands one knows where the QWERTY keys are (or should be).

Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.
 
The exile

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Adwy said:
In the U.K. the decision to have computer and telephone keypads different was justified, against criticism for unnecessary confusion and complication, by explaining that those using push button telephones (senior managers) would not be those using computer keypads (junior staff).

Even if one is not applying to download one’s tickets using two hands one knows where the QWERTY keys are (or should be).

Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.
Click to expand...
Surely the telephone keypad was determined by the allocation of letters to numbers on dials many years before.
 
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edwin_m

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PyrahnaRanger said:
Leaving aside the trope that QWERTY was designed to slow down typists and stop them jamming their typewriters*, I would hazard a guess that it’s to do with programming - it’s quite easy to do a loop and draw buttons for A - Z in a grid, it would be more complicated to do it in a random order like a Qwerty or Dvorak keyboard.
Click to expand...
That strikes me as absolutely negligible relative to the amount of software needed in a TVM and the amount of TVMs using the same software. Giving people an extra "button" to swap keyboards would cost virtually nothing.
 
martin2345uk

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The on-board computer of class 373s has a physical ABC layout keyboard and it never fails to surprise me just how long it takes me to find letters despite having known the alphabet for about 35 years!
 
The exile

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Guessing a French keyboard isn’t the same as ours (like a German one is QWERTZ), so ABC helps avoid typos by being obviously alien to all users.
 
birchesgreen

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The exile said:
Guessing a French keyboard isn’t the same as ours (like a German one is QWERTZ), so ABC helps avoid typos by being obviously alien to all users.
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AZERTY in France i believe. I am a typewriter collector and i have a couple of German machines, to be honest there is no real confusion between a QWERTZ and a QWERTY machine.

I do find the ABC keyboards annoying but then again i can touch type on a QWERTY after decades of typing rubbish on fora online i mean working as an IT professional.
 
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infobleep

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There really should be a choice. It's not difficult. I can't remember what the layout is at the Guildford TMVs.

Which keyboard will most people make the least number of mistakes? And if someone doesn't know QWERTY, with mistake corrected, could they still type in a reference or station name? If the answer is yes, then QWERTY rules but I'm happy for a choice.
 
32475

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On a ticket vending machine you’re never going to be typing very much so ABC format isn’t a problem.
Interesting observation on a qwerty keyboard is that the letters are jumbled but the numbers are not.
 
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PyrahnaRanger said:
*Im told “typewriter” is the longest word it’s possible to spell using only the top line of the keyboard.
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And stewardesses is the longest English word that can be typed with the left hand (in normal two handed typing)
 
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ic31420

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randyrippley said:
not everyone is a typist, especially older users
however you look at it,QWERTY keyboards are not very logical to use
Click to expand...

Every computer I have ever used has been qwerty.

This old folks not using computers, the same argument that people use about banks closing and services moving online is getting a bit tired.

Today's 85yr old was at work in the a
early 00s when the internet became big with home and and work computers becoming popular years before. My 90yr old grandad in-law spends as much, if not more time on the computer and internet than me.

Logical is exactly what qwerty is, with the most used nearest the home keys. While we may not be touch typing on a TVM or touch screen (I hate them) the letter locations are known.
 
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There are other downsides with being an old school typist. My dear departed mum worked as a typing pool manager at the Milk Marketing Board. She was the fastest touch typist I ever saw.

Problem was, when she got her first computer keyboard she attacked it like she was typing through three layers of paper and carbon paper. It didn't end well and she destroyed several keyboards until she learnt to tone down her action. Hate to think how she would have dealt with a touch screen. :)
 
birchesgreen

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Ken X said:
Problem was, when she got her first computer keyboard she attacked it like she was typing through three layers of paper and carbon paper. It didn't end well and she destroyed several keyboards until she learnt to tone down her action. Hate to think how she would have dealt with a touch screen. :)
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She needed an IBM Model M keyboard, reputedly it can withstand a direct hit with a 1kT nuke and still work.
 
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I am old and have been using typewriters and computers for my entire adult life. Like much of the population I still type with one or sometimes two fingers. Makes no difference to me whether a keypad is ABC (like my remotes, phones, etc) or qwerty.

I doubt whether anyone would attempt full blown, two handed touch typing on a ticket vending machine keyboard even if it were qwerty.

As for "optimum" qwerty location of the most used letters that would be, even if correct, for typing normal language text not place names.
 
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As others have mentioned, I think it can be a good compromise for international users. The layout of the Latin alphabet is (more or less) consistent in every language that uses it, whereas typing keyboard layouts may not be. Especially as typing on TVM is not exactly a high-stakes time-critical environment (I'd be interested to know what percentage of destinations/tickets people look for are not included in the ten default suggestions and so actually require typing a name in), the Qwerty layout really doesn't hold much advantage over alphabetical in this specific scenario.
 
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trebor79

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Halish Railway said:
Perhaps having letters arranged in order has been deemed more suitable given that part of a ticket machine's role is to type in reference numbers (or letters) to collect pre-paid tickets, a role for which QWERTY keyboards are redundant given that you're not typing out words.
Click to expand...
I can type a random string of letters and numbers far more quickly on a qwerty keyboard than one with the keys arranged alphabetically.
PyrahnaRanger said:
Leaving aside the trope that QWERTY was designed to slow down typists and stop them jamming their typewriters*, I would hazard a guess that it’s to do with programming - it’s quite easy to do a loop and draw buttons for A - Z in a grid, it would be more complicated to do it in a random order like a Qwerty or Dvorak keyboard.
Click to expand...
Nah. You just use a library for stuff like that, you don't write a keyboard function for every program, you just call the keyboard function from whatever library you're using.
 
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