How to improve and increase capacity of the West Coastway line, including merging merging Sholing & Woolston stations?

Moderator note: Split from

OneOfThe48 said:

The Sholing-Woolston area itself is pretty built up so even if the bus connections are not as good as Southern imagine, I think the extra stops are still worth it and will be more convenient for a lot of customers.

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Good point.

The reality is that the present is running needlessly non-stop through countless suburbs, which even London trains don't do with their calls at Clapham Junction and East Croydon, which offer good connections for frequent metro services, not hourly stopping services which is the only choice for many stations.

It's fair enough to run ultra-fast if it has a very long way to go (say if they ran London Waterloo via Guildford services from there), but not for what is already primarily a regional service, making a few calls in the suburbs appropriate.

Just look at Brighton/Worthing for example, where nearly all their suburban stations (other than Aldrington and Fishersgate and East worthing to a lesser extent) have a frequent service of at least 3-4 tph.

The problem with Southampton in part though is that are too many that are too close together, where for example, Sholing and Woolson are only about a 15 minute walk from each other, and currently, with no station having a superior service, it splits passengers, creating two underused stations that most trains don't call at on those grounds, whereas if the planners in the 1840s had known better, they would have had one station in the middle of where Woolston and Sholing actually are that would have perhaps roughly the same number of passengers of Woolston and Sholing put together, which would have created a busier station that more trains would call at.

Hamble and Netley are also not that far from each other, and could have maybe shared a station.

It's just good Dr Beeching didn't shut those stations to be fair.

LCRTrainfan979 said:

Good point, the reality is that the present is running needlessly non-stop through countless suburbs, which even London trains don't do with their calls at Clapham Junction and East Croydon, which offer good connections for frequent metro services, not hourly stopping services which is the only choice for many stations. Its fair enough to run ultra fast if it has a very long way to go (say if they ran London Waterloo via Guildford services from there), but not for what is already primarily a regional service, making a few calls in the suburbs appropriate. Just look at Brighton/Worthing for example where nearly all their suburban stations (other than Aldrington and Fishersgate and East worthing to a lesser extent) have a frequent service of at least 3-4 tph. The problem with southampton in part though is that are too many that are too close together, where for example, Sholing and Woolson are only about a 15 minute walk from each other, and currently, with no station having a superior service, it splits passengers, creating two underused stations that most trains don't call at on those grounds, whereas if the planners in the 1840s had known better, they would have had one station in the middle of where Woolston and Sholing actually are that would have perhaps the have roughly the same number of passengers of Woolston and Sholing put together, which would have created a busier station that more trains would call at. Hamble and Netley are also not that far from each other, and could have maybe shared a station. Its just good Dr Beeching didn't shut those stations to be fair.

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This June 2024 West Coastway timetable change has highlighted again the issue of eight stations between Fareham and Southampton Central so all services between Fareham and Southampton Central have to be timetabled around the hourly all stops SWR Portsmouth and Southsea to Southampton Central service which takes around 35 minutes to go between Fareham and Southampton Central due to stopping at all eight stations compared to 20 to 25 minutes for the two Southern Brighton to Southampton Central (stop at Swanwick and Woolston only from June 2024) and one GWR Portsmouth to Cardiff Central (nonstop Fareham to Southampton Central) services each hour. To run more services on this line in future in addition to improving the signalling the number of stations between Fareham and Southampton Central needs to be reduced from eight to six by merging Sholing into Woolston (close Sholing use Woolston 15 minutes walk away instead) and Hamble into Netley (close Hamble use Netley 15 minutes walk away instead) to speed up the hourly all stops service.
There is some information about the history of the stations between Fareham and St Denys at the following link

http://www.starzina.com/Starzina%20Z%20Railways%20Southampton%20to%20Fareham.htm

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weeklycommuter said:

This June 2024 West Coastway timetable change has highlighted again the issue of eight stations between Fareham and Southampton Central so all services between Fareham and Southampton Central have to be timetabled around the hourly all stops SWR Portsmouth and Southsea to Southampton Central service which takes around 35 minutes to go between Fareham and Southampton Central due to stopping at all eight stations compared to 20 to 25 minutes for the two Southern Brighton to Southampton Central (stop at Swanwick and Woolston only from June 2024) and one GWR Portsmouth to Cardiff Central (nonstop Fareham to Southampton Central) services each hour. To run more services on this line in future in addition to improving the signalling the number of stations between Fareham and Southampton Central needs to be reduced from eight to six by merging Sholing into Woolston (close Sholing use Woolston 15 minutes walk away instead) and Hamble into Netley (close Hamble use Netley 15 minutes walk away instead) to speed up the hourly all stops service.
There is some information about the history of the stations between Fareham and St Denys at the following link

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And it’s the SWR stopper that’s been moved round the hour in the new timetable to allow the SN trains to run a half hour apart. But the ciurrent 15/45 separation of the SN Victoria and Brighton is a function of the departures from Victoria and Brighton being 30/30. To run all four service permutations (as they do now), with similar calling patterns, those trains must end up 15/45 at Portsmouth and Southampton irrespective of what SWR do.

There is to be at least one morning peak extra SWR that calls at almost all stations, I suspect two stoppers per hour could run if the GWR could be run right behind one of the SN services. But not necessarily all day, there’s also freight and SWR Waterloo via Havant and route learner ECS to fit in. I agree there are possibly just too many calls on the section, but I think Sholing could probably go without moving Woolston at all. They’re very close as stations go.

These are stations with 80-100k pax usage per annum, and you’re suggesting one of them could be closed?

Wilts Wanderer said:

These are stations with 80-100k pax usage per annum, and you’re suggesting one of them could be closed?

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I’d only consider merging Woolston and Sholing, as they’re about 900m apart. The previous post to mine is suggesting another pair, but I’m not sure on combining Hamble and Netley.

swt_passenger said:

I’d only consider merging Woolston and Sholing, as they’re about 900m apart. The previous post to mine is suggesting another pair, but I’m not sure on combining Hamble and Netley.

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Woolston annual usage 2022/23 : 0.105 million
Sholing annual usage 2022/23 : 86,890
(From Wikipedia, refers to ORR stats)

These are not particularly low-usage stations. An extra kilometre of distance for locals would probably cause material hardship to commuters etc.

Wilts Wanderer said:

Woolston annual usage 2022/23 : 0.105 million
Sholing annual usage 2022/23 : 86,890
(From Wikipedia, refers to ORR stats)

These are not particularly low-usage stations. An extra kilometre of distance for locals would probably cause material hardship to commuters etc.

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Until now Woolston and Sholing have had the same service of one SWR all stops train an hour seven days a week. This will change in June as Woolston will then have three trains an hour with the half hourly Southern Southampton to Brighton service calling at Woolston Monday to Saturday. This will make Woolston a much more attractive station than Sholing and is likely to make a big difference to footfall figures at Woolston. The footfalls at all the stations between Swanwick and St Denys are currently low considering their catchment areas as these stations only have the hourly SWR all stops train Portsmouth and Southsea to Southampton Central and this service is also slow due to stopping at eight stations between Fareham and Southampton Central. Woolston and Netley Stations are staffed stations with better facilities than unstaffed Sholing and Hamble.
ORR Entries and exits April 2022 to March 2023 for West Coastway stations Cosham to Southampton Central
Cosham 765,158 Portchester 295,682 Fareham 1,415,156 Swanwick 484,578 Bursledon 54,750 Hamble 80,268 Netley 73,704
Sholing 86,890 Woolston 104,868 Bitterne 65,298 St Denys 175,824 Southampton Central 5,495,672 (and 1,207,893 interchanges)
See Table 1410 at the following link

Estimates of station usage | ORR Data Portal

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Closing the stations won't create more paths between St Denys & Fareham, the only solution is resignalling, so the signal blocks are shorter.

What about curtailing the Portsmouth to Southampton Stopper to Fareham Bay Platform? How would that affect the running I wonder?
Add all calls for the London Waterloo Via Eastleigh stopper to include Hilsea and Portchester on every run?

Could that help somewhat allow potential extra services to run?

fkofilee said:

What about curtailing the Portsmouth to Southampton Stopper to Fareham Bay Platform? How would that affect the running I wonder?
Add all calls for the London Waterloo Via Eastleigh stopper to include Hilsea and Portchester on every run?

Could that help somewhat allow potential extra services to run?

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You'd end up with more people cramming on to GWRs Portsmouth-Cardiff services, which certainly isn't ideal

fkofilee said:

What about curtailing the Portsmouth to Southampton Stopper to Fareham Bay Platform? How would that affect the running I wonder?
Add all calls for the London Waterloo Via Eastleigh stopper to include Hilsea and Portchester on every run?

Could that help somewhat allow potential extra services to run?

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The whole point of the hourly all stops service between Portsmouth and Southsea and Southampton Central is to provide a service to all the stations served both to Portsmouth and to Southampton and to provide a direct train service between Portsmouth and Southampton. As the capacity issue preventing making this service half hourly is between Fareham and Southampton Central terminating trains of any additional service from Southampton Central in Southampton facing Fareham bay platform 2 would not solve the capacity issue. The hourly Portsmouth Harbour to and from London Waterloo service via Fareham and Eastleigh calls at all stations Eastleigh to Portsmouth Harbour inclusive.

fkofilee said:

What about curtailing the Portsmouth to Southampton Stopper to Fareham Bay Platform? How would that affect the running I wonder?
Add all calls for the London Waterloo Via Eastleigh stopper to include Hilsea and Portchester on every run?

Could that help somewhat allow potential extra services to run?

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You mean run a Fareham to Southampton stopper? It wouldn’t make it any faster on that section, so would have no effect on the time taken. But the stopper already been retimed from June between Portsmouth and Fareham to make room for Southern. And as I already mentioned, there is going to be a morning peak extra SWR stopper in the opposite half hour to the normal one, so there already is room for an extra SWR service. It doesn’t call at every station, misses out Bitterne and takes 30 mins.

weeklycommuter said:

This June 2024 West Coastway timetable change has highlighted again the issue of eight stations between Fareham and Southampton Central so all services between Fareham and Southampton Central have to be timetabled around the hourly all stops SWR Portsmouth and Southsea to Southampton Central service which takes around 35 minutes to go between Fareham and Southampton Central due to stopping at all eight stations compared to 20 to 25 minutes for the two Southern Brighton to Southampton Central (stop at Swanwick and Woolston only from June 2024) and one GWR Portsmouth to Cardiff Central (nonstop Fareham to Southampton Central) services each hour. To run more services on this line in future in addition to improving the signalling the number of stations between Fareham and Southampton Central needs to be reduced from eight to six by merging Sholing into Woolston (close Sholing use Woolston 15 minutes walk away instead) and Hamble into Netley (close Hamble use Netley 15 minutes walk away instead) to speed up the hourly all stops service.
There is some information about the history of the stations between Fareham and St Denys at the following link

Click to expand...

We should not be closing stations. Even if they're small, these stations are useful for local communities.

Hamble isn't that close to Netley, close it and the local residents would have to travel further. Hamble is currently within walking distance of quite a bit of housing, close it and Netley won't be.

I note from your figures that Hamble has 80,000 - more than Netley. Should we really be closing it?

The line has managed with all those stations until now, and the main performance problem of Southern trains appears to be at the Southern end, not on the Solent coast line.

fkofilee said:

What about curtailing the Portsmouth to Southampton Stopper to Fareham Bay Platform? How would that affect the running I wonder?
Add all calls for the London Waterloo Via Eastleigh stopper to include Hilsea and Portchester on every run?

Could that help somewhat allow potential extra services to run?

Click to expand...

This would prevent people from the smaller stations reaching Portsmouth (or Cosham, etc) directly which wouldn't be good. IMX the stopper carries quite a few passengers from the intermediate stations to the Portsmouth area.

They should definitely keep the stopper, and not mess with it.

swt_passenger said:

And it’s the SWR stopper that’s been moved round the hour in the new timetable to allow the SN trains to run a half hour apart. But the ciurrent 15/45 separation of the SN Victoria and Brighton is a function of the departures from Victoria and Brighton being 30/30. To run all four service permutations (as they do now), with similar calling patterns, those trains must end up 15/45 at Portsmouth and Southampton irrespective of what SWR do.

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As an aside, interesting the separation is now 15/45. I always remember the two Southerns as being xx11/xx33 (occasionally xx13/xx33) in the 2010s when I used them a lot - obviously that's changed. The xx11/xx33 provided a reasonably decent spread of departures towards Havant and thus a couple of good connections to the Portsmouth Direct each hour.

chr said:

9 buses crossing the Itchen Bridge westbound from southern Woolston in the next hour, which is still semi-peak time but in general there's good connectivity between Woolston and the centre of town by bus. If you're heading for the east of the centre e.g. Ocean Village / Oxford Street, you'd get there faster walking than if you stayed on the train.

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There are as many as 17 Bluestar buses an hour from Woolston to the city centre (6 x 17, 4 x 19, 2 x 7, 2 x 13, 2 x 15 and 1 x 10) in each Mon-Fri hour plus one First service about every 20 minutes.

The Woolston stop on the new Southern services is primarily, presumably, for travel eastbound.

If anything we should be looking at new stations for regular travel round the city, so I would strongly resist any suggestion to close stations. The obvious way to alleviate congestion on the route and to provide fast Southampton-Portsmouth services is to build the underground section between Southampton Central and the east of the city.

Kite159 said:

Closing the stations won't create more paths between St Denys & Fareham, the only solution is resignalling, so the signal blocks are shorter.

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This is definitely the "problem" on this line IMX. Trains are often on a "go slow" even if the previous train is well ahead. It obviously doesn't have the "one train every 3 mins" capacity that many lines have.

Hamble is used by numerous workers from the aerospace factory in Hamble, some walk, some cycle and some are dropped by car given the awful Hamble station location but the extra distance to walk to Netley and the quality of the road is such that all these people would likely stop using the train, not to mention the school children who use Hamble. Rather than closing Hamble the goal is to boost usage there to take traffic off Hamble Lane and there is still a desire for a car park there. Closing Hamble is just not a sensible option. The only option is signaling improvements.

nw1 said:

As an aside, interesting the separation is now 15/45. I always remember the two Southerns as being xx11/xx33 (occasionally xx13/xx33) in the 2010s when I used them a lot - obviously that's changed. The xx11/xx33 provided a reasonably decent spread of departures towards Havant and thus a couple of good connections to the Portsmouth Direct each hour.

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Yes seems to be about minutes xx13 & xx28 at the moment from Southampton, I don’t remember when the Brighton was moved a bit earlier.

nw1 said:

There are as many as 17 Bluestar buses an hour from Woolston to the city centre (6 x 17, 4 x 19, 2 x 7, 2 x 13, 2 x 15 and 1 x 10) in each Mon-Fri hour plus one First service about every 20 minutes.

The Woolston stop on the new Southern services is primarily, presumably, for travel eastbound.

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SN have specifically referred to it as offering a fast interchange from the train onto buses for faster access towards the city centre, it is quoted in post #1.

swt_passenger said:

SN have specifically referred to it as offering a fast interchange from the train onto buses for faster access towards the city centre, it is quoted in post #1.

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Of course the current Southampton Central station was called Southampton West before the mainline station was closed. Possibly a reason for this.

chr said:

The obvious way to alleviate congestion on the route and to provide fast Southampton-Portsmouth services is to build the underground section between Southampton Central and the east of the city.

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Southampton City Council made clear that this proposed tunnel is not in their Local Transport Plan or Local Plan.

Concerns raised over plan for rail tunnel under River Itchen

CONCERNS have been raised about a plan to build an underground rail link in Southampton.

www.dailyecho.co.uk

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Southampton rail underground plan sparks concerns over cost 18th October 2022
Transport for the South East unveiled the ambitious proposal to link Southampton Central with the Netley line back in the summer.
It was part of a wider £45bn package of transport improvements - all of which are subject to further consultation and need to be funded.
But now Southampton City Council has outlined its concerns over risks to the environment, the cost and whether or not it is feasible.
In its response to a consultation on the wider plans, the city council said: "As highlighted throughout the development of the SIP (Strategic Investment Plan), we have concerns about the proposed rail tunnel under the River Itchen due to potential challenges related to cost, deliverability and environmental impact. It should also be noted that a tunnelling option is not currently considered within our LTP (Local Transport Plan) or Local Plan."

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weeklycommuter said:

Southampton City Council made clear that this proposed tunnel is not in their Local Transport Plan or Local Plan.

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Not sure such a tunnel would dramatically increase times though, as the line curves a lot more or less throughout.

The most viable place for a cutoff tunnel would probably be Northam to somewhere just south of Bitterne, I would guess but at the end of the day you're probably talking about only a 5 min saving. Plus as the council say this would have very significant environmental impact on the Chessel Bay area. Hardly worth doing; fixing the signalling has got to be the main solution to speed things up and free up capacity.

paul1609 said:

Of course the current Southampton Central station was called Southampton West before the mainline station was closed. Possibly a reason for this.

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I think one of the reasons was that Southampton was no longer the major port it once was with the introduction of air travel making ocean liners effectively redundant (E.G. Southampton terminus would have been the last station that some of the 1,500 souls who died on the Titanic ever visited).

This meant that Southampton terminus (which is the mainline station I presume you are thinking of) was effectively redundant, and it was eventually realised that they could send many trains into Southampton West instead (Which was eventually renamed Southampton Central in the 30s, then just Southampton in the 60s before the name reverted in the 90s), and then onto Weymouth, Bournemouth, Salisbury and beyond.

The nail in the coffin was electrification in the 1960s, and by this point, most trains used Southampton West instead, not covering Southampton terminus or Northam (the previous station on the line, but after the split from the mainline) and this was around the era of Beeching and rationalisation, and there was presumably no business case for doing this, particularly before the age of commuting.

In hindsight though, Southampton terminus would probably be a more useful station thesedays, because one of the problems with Southampton is its capacity, and lack of platforms for a station used by as many services as it, including terminating services. One reason for this is because there are no bay platforms currently in use, as well as no bay platforms facing east which Southern or SWR could use for terminating services, forcing them onto platforms 2 and 3, and leaving only 2 through tracks at the station usually available.

Southampton Terminus could have been a solution, by having any terminating trains there, and any through services, which are now more common than they would have been when railways first came to Southampton instead using Southampton Terminus, and have easy forms of travel between the two of them, such as buses or some shuttle trains, or by calling more trains at St Denys, which has potential as a junction station with its 4 platforms on 2 different lines, but rarely used as such.

weeklycommuter said:

Southampton City Council made clear that this proposed tunnel is not in their Local Transport Plan or Local Plan.

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To be fair, that is absolutely right, and the whole idea sounds like an over-the-top idea that only an idiot into spending ridiculous amounts of money would propose. The reality is, it would cost astronomical amounts of money, and for most likely not enough benefit to justify the costs.

The fact is, such a tunnel would likely only be used for around a few trains an hour, would need complex engineering including a perfect route that would be required to connect to the main line on both ends, useful intermediate stations (such as Southampton Ctl low level, among probably others to bring in additional traffic), because it would be used by GWR services from Portsmouth to Cardiff, as well as the current Coastway services which terminate in Southampton Central, and you would likely need the prospect of a lot more through trains to make the whole thing worthwhile, or a larger metro service like Merseyrail in Liverpool, where the tunnels under the Mersey are a trunk route for multiple lines in Mersey to get into Liverpool, rather than just the coastway line.

Other factors may need to be considered such as the future of Bitterne and St Denys Coastway stations, and maybe Woolston depending on the alignment (because you can't really close a line and/or as easily these days as you could in the 1960s).

It would be beneficial on paper, but its the kind of project that won't happen in practice, probably ever.

LCRTrainfan979 said:

I think one of the reasons was that Southampton was no longer the major port it once was with the introduction of air travel making ocean liners effectively redundant (E.G. Southampton terminus would have been the last station that some of the 1,500 souls who died on the Titanic ever visited). This meant that Southampton terminus (which is the mainline station I presume you are thinking of) was effectively redundant, and it was eventually realised that they could send many trains into Southampton West instead (Which was eventually renamed Southampton Central in the 30s, then just Southampton in the 60s before the name reverted in the 90s), and then onto Weymouth, Bournemouth, Salisbury and beyond. The nail in the coffin was electrification in the 1960s, and by this point, most trains used Southampton West instead, not covering Southampton terminus or Northam (the previous station on the line, but after the split from the mainline) and this was around the era of Beeching and rationalisation, and there was presumably no business case for doing this, particularly before the age of commuting. In hindsight though, Southampton terminus would probably be a more useful station thesedays, because one of the problems with Southampton is its capacity, and lack of platforms for a station used by as many services as it, including terminating services. One reason for this is because there are no bay platforms currently in use, as well as no bay platforms facing east which Southern or SWR could use for terminating services, forcing them onto platforms 2 and 3, and leaving only 2 through tracks at the station usually available. Southampton Terminus could have been a solution, by having any terminating trains there, and any through services, which are now more common than they would have been when railways first came to Southampton instead using Southampton Terminus, and have easy forms of travel between the two of them, such as buses or some shuttle trains, or by calling more trains at St Denys, which has potential as a junction station with its 4 platforms on 2 different lines, but rarely used as such.

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The point I (and Southern) were trying to make is that Southampton Central isn't Central. Despite being on the wrong side of the River Itchen Woolston is actually closer to half the cruise terminals, ocean village, St Mary's stadium and a big chunk of the South City Centre. If you are approaching from the East that's before you have a 5 mile 20 mph trundle up the Itchen and a 5 mins wait outside the station for a platform.

paul1609 said:

The point I (and Southern) were trying to make is that Southampton Central isn't Central. Despite being on the wrong side of the River Itchen Woolston is actually closer to half the cruise terminals, ocean village, St Mary's stadium and a big chunk of the South City Centre. If you are approaching from the East that's before you have a 5 mile 20 mph trundle up the Itchen and a 5 mins wait outside the station for a platform.

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I think this is stretching things - Southampton Central is pretty central. It’s next to the main shopping centre (West Quay), the Civic Centre, the cultural centre (Mayflower), the historic walls and the coach station. Not far from the Waterfront hotels and events (eg Boat Show) and (to declare an interest) the IW ferry terminals. It’s hard to believe that people going to any of these destinations would ever regard Woolston (or indeed a reopened original terminus) as a viable option.

paul1609 said:

The point I (and Southern) were trying to make is that Southampton Central isn't Central. Despite being on the wrong side of the River Itchen Woolston is actually closer to half the cruise terminals, ocean village, St Mary's stadium and a big chunk of the South City Centre. If you are approaching from the East that's before you have a 5 mile 20 mph trundle up the Itchen and a 5 mins wait outside the station for a platform.

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That's right, and southern are specifically basing it on door-to-door journeys.

The reality is, alighting at Woolston and getting a bus to your location in the south city centre will work out quicker than staying on to Southampton Central, and then doing a double-back to reach your actual destination, either by bus or on foot.

hermit said:

I think this is stretching things - Southampton Central is pretty central. It’s next to the main shopping centre (West Quay), the Civic Centre, the cultural centre (Mayflower), the historic walls and the coach station. Not far from the Waterfront hotels and events (eg Boat Show) and (to declare an interest) the IW ferry terminals. It’s hard to believe that people going to any of these destinations would ever regard Woolston (or indeed a reopened original terminus) as a viable option.

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I disagree, and Woolston station, assuming someone was using it for certain destinations in the city centre (E.G. Using Southampton Ctl for West Quay and Woolston for the hotels or Solent Sky (based on looking on google maps (shown in the picture) and the likely bus routes).

However, a few implications would be enough people knowing that Woolston is the best station to use for their destination, as well as people knowing approximately where the buses would go.

On balance, if you take off the last leg of a train journey into Southampton Ctl (which according to realtime trains on the current fast trains would work out as around 7-8 minutes, probably marginally more, due to trains stopping at Woolston when the changes do happen), and walking/bus times from the station, and then add all the time waiting for a bus and on a bus from Woolston, that would likely be a net reduction.

The same would likely be true with Southampton Terminus, but only for certain destinations, which is why its not worth reopening for connectivity, and would only be worthwhile for the additional capacity which it could provide, but its probably too expensive when compared to cost-benefits, and negative impacts on Southampton Ctl because it would mean many trains would no longer serve it.

The overall point is that while Soutahampton Central is central to the whole of Southampton, it is not particularly centred in the City Centre, which is so large that Woolston really isn't that far from the south-east corner of the city centre in practice.