Refused to pay

Pedro123 · 7 Apr 2024

Apologies, but advice needed please. Today I had enough.
Travelled from Lancaster to Milton Keynes with my adult and child kids and back again today. I also have an Armed forces rail card. Paid over £200 for the tickets.
The journey was plagued with delays and over crowding from start to finish and for a large part we were sat on the floor next to the toilet.
On the way back my train to Crewe was so late that I got on a village hopper to make a later connection and eventually got home 3h late.
Here (on the village hopper train) I met the very thorough ticket lady who was lovely but decided that as I didn’t have both parts of my rail card, despite having the photo card, warrant card and £200 of tickets and receipts that I owed a further £70 in replacement tickets.
I had a complete sense of humour failure and refused to pay a penny more for this ridiculous journey. We parted ways after telling me I’d be ‘reported’. What happens next? I’ve had enough and it’s principle now

RailUK Forums

Brissle Girl · 7 Apr 2024

It sounds as though the principle is that as you didn’t have all the required parts of your railcard (am I correct?) then you were travelling without valid tickets, and would have been best advised to pay the £70.

It’s quite likely you will be reported for prosecution, but will be offered an out of court settlement, which will cost you rather more than £70.

If you continue to have “had enough”, and argue, then they will probably say “ see you in court”, and will win, leaving you with a criminal conviction and an even bigger dent in your wallet.

There is one more positive possibility though. People are usually allowed to forget their railcard once and have any additional payment made on the day refunded on producing the evidence of their railcard. So it could be that they will drop the case if you provide this, but I’m a bit worried that by refusing to pay at the time may mean they don’t offer this option. I’ll be interested to hear what others think.

Wolfie · 7 Apr 2024

Brissle Girl said:
It sounds as though the principle is that as you didn’t have all the required parts of your railcard (am I correct?) then you were travelling without valid tickets, and would have been best advised to pay the £70.

It’s quite likely you will be reported for prosecution, but will be offered an out of court settlement, which will cost you rather more than £70.

If you continue to have “had enough”, and argue, then they will probably say “ see you in court”, and will win, leaving you with a criminal conviction and an even bigger dent in your wallet.

There is one more positive possibility though. People are usually allowed to forget their railcard once and have any additional payment made on the day refunded on producing the evidence of their railcard. So it could be that they will drop the case if you provide this, but I’m a bit worried that by refusing to pay at the time may mean they don’t offer this option. I’ll be interested to hear what others think.

Hopefully Pedro123 has the other part even if they didn't have it with them during the ticket check. If they don't that will make things much more complicated.

richw · 8 Apr 2024

Your journey will have gained you 100% delay repay so you’d have got it refunded anyway. Should have paid it and then delay repay it back.

Now you’re under investigation instead which could lead to a conviction if you don’t cooperate.

furlong · 8 Apr 2024

So you had the photo card but not the actual railcard itself?

Do you have the railcard part itself in your possession now or is it lost? Is it in-date or had it expired?

What happens depends on the answers to those two questions.

Andy Pacer · 8 Apr 2024

Pedro123 said:
Apologies, but advice needed please. Today I had enough.
Travelled from Lancaster to Milton Keynes with my adult and child kids and back again today. I also have an Armed forces rail card. Paid over £200 for the tickets.
The journey was plagued with delays and over crowding from start to finish and for a large part we were sat on the floor next to the toilet.
On the way back my train to Crewe was so late that I got on a village hopper to make a later connection and eventually got home 3h late.
Here (on the village hopper train) I met the very thorough ticket lady who was lovely but decided that as I didn’t have both parts of my rail card, despite having the photo card, warrant card and £200 of tickets and receipts that I owed a further £70 in replacement tickets.
I had a complete sense of humour failure and refused to pay a penny more for this ridiculous journey. We parted ways after telling me I’d be ‘reported’. What happens next? I’ve had enough and it’s principle now

What is a "village hopper"?

CarrotPie · 8 Apr 2024

Andy Pacer said:
What is a "village hopper"?

A local train calling at a lot of small village stations.

Andy Pacer · 8 Apr 2024

CarrotPie said:
A local train calling at a lot of small village stations.

I wonder which route that would be for the OP's journey

Deafdoggie · 8 Apr 2024

Pedro123 said:
Apologies, but advice needed please. Today I had enough.
Travelled from Lancaster to Milton Keynes with my adult and child kids and back again today. I also have an Armed forces rail card. Paid over £200 for the tickets.
The journey was plagued with delays and over crowding from start to finish and for a large part we were sat on the floor next to the toilet.
On the way back my train to Crewe was so late that I got on a village hopper to make a later connection and eventually got home 3h late.
Here (on the village hopper train) I met the very thorough ticket lady who was lovely but decided that as I didn’t have both parts of my rail card, despite having the photo card, warrant card and £200 of tickets and receipts that I owed a further £70 in replacement tickets.
I had a complete sense of humour failure and refused to pay a penny more for this ridiculous journey. We parted ways after telling me I’d be ‘reported’. What happens next? I’ve had enough and it’s principle now

As others have said, the crucial thing, is do you have the missing part of the railcard now? Did the guard take any details from you?

If the answers are no and yes, then it looks like it might be very expensive for you. But can still get the equivalent of the fare back by claiming delay repay. This will at least be a start towards the costs.

If you get a letter in the next few months, be sure to come back here for advice.

Andy Pacer said:
I wonder which route that would be for the OP's journey

As they said to Crewe, one assumes it was the LNWR train.

AlterEgo · 8 Apr 2024

Pedro123 said:
Apologies, but advice needed please. Today I had enough.
Travelled from Lancaster to Milton Keynes with my adult and child kids and back again today. I also have an Armed forces rail card. Paid over £200 for the tickets.
The journey was plagued with delays and over crowding from start to finish and for a large part we were sat on the floor next to the toilet.
On the way back my train to Crewe was so late that I got on a village hopper to make a later connection and eventually got home 3h late.
Here (on the village hopper train) I met the very thorough ticket lady who was lovely but decided that as I didn’t have both parts of my rail card, despite having the photo card, warrant card and £200 of tickets and receipts that I owed a further £70 in replacement tickets.
I had a complete sense of humour failure and refused to pay a penny more for this ridiculous journey. We parted ways after telling me I’d be ‘reported’. What happens next? I’ve had enough and it’s principle now

Not the wisest thing anyone has done I’m afraid, your journey qualified for 100% delay repay so it wouldn’t have mattered if you’d had to get a replacement ticket, you’d have got all the money back anyway.

Which train were you caught on, which railcard do you have (I assume Family and Friends?), and do you have both parts of the railcard? Did you give your details or did the employee take them from your tickets?

Andy Pacer · 8 Apr 2024

Deafdoggie said:
As they said to Crewe, one assumes it was the LNWR train.

Intrigued by the village stops!

Deafdoggie · 8 Apr 2024

Atherstone, Rugeley

Andy Pacer said:
Intrigued by the village stops!

Andy Pacer · 8 Apr 2024

Deafdoggie said:
Atherstone, Rugeley

Aah, I was taking villages literally, and not towns.

Deafdoggie · 8 Apr 2024

Andy Pacer said:
Aah, I was taking villages literally, and not towns.

I think if you pulled up at Atherstone or Rugeley stations, you'd think they were villages.

Ducatist4 · 8 Apr 2024

This might also come to the attention of your chain of command. Just something to be aware of and make it even more desirable to do whatever you have to do to make it go away.

island · 8 Apr 2024

Pedro123 said:
I had a complete sense of humour failure and refused to pay a penny more for this ridiculous journey. We parted ways after telling me I’d be ‘reported’. What happens next?

Opening question: were your personal details taken by the member of staff? Either directly or by scanning of an e-ticket?

Pedro123 · 8 Apr 2024

Yeag

furlong said:
So you had the photo card but not the actual railcard itself?

Do you have the railcard part itself in your possession now or is it lost? Is it in-date or had it expired?

What happens depends on the answers to those two questions.

, just not on me at the time.

furlong said:
So you had the photo card but not the actual railcard itself?

Do you have the railcard part itself in your possession now or is it lost? Is it in-date or had it expired?

What happens depends on the answers to those two questions.

Yep. I’ve got all the correct stuff, and I understand the technicalities of the rule book etc. I’m just tired of handing over hundreds for a terrible service. I understand the situation but picking a strike day with shocking service and overcrowding to get pedantic and ask for more money seemed like a micky take.

island · 8 Apr 2024

Pedro123 said:
Yep. I’ve got all the correct stuff, and I understand the technicalities of the rule book etc. I’m just tired of handing over hundreds for a terrible service. I understand the situation but picking a strike day with shocking service and overcrowding to get pedantic and ask for more money seemed like a micky take.

Yesterday (Sunday) was not a strike day, but regardless of that, asking that people present (in full) any document or card entitling them to a discount is not "pedantic".

Pedro123 · 8 Apr 2024

furlong said:
So you had the photo card but not the actual railcard itself?

Do you have the railcard part itself in your possession now or is it lost? Is it in-date or had it expired?

What happens depends on the answers to those two questions.

Yep. Everythings in order, I can prove it all, repay anything they ask etc, and I was polite on the day. I just lost patience with the cheek of asking for more money after spending hundreds to sit on the floor and get stranded on platforms that day anyway. Completely understand the rule book answer here, but sadly it was the last straw of a very long and tiring day.

janb · 8 Apr 2024

AlterEgo said:
Which train were you caught on, which railcard do you have (I assume Family and Friends?)

HM Forces railcard, can take up to 4 accompanied children.

I had someone a few days ago attempt to buy discounted tickets with only the photocard and warrant card, no railcard. I obviously declined to do so.

Pedro123 · 8 Apr 2024

island said:
Yesterday (Sunday) was not a strike day, but regardless of that, asking that people present (in full) any document or card entitling them to a discount is not "pedantic".

It was in between strike days thus very disrupted with lots of cancellations and smaller trains, plus more people traveling who couldn’t travel on the 6th. I bought £200 of tickets and produced the documents I had. Why would I have half a railcard if I didn’t have the full one.

Snow1964 · 8 Apr 2024

I can understand why you were rather narked, if delayed 3 hours, then someone decides to be pedantic with the rules. After all if wanted to stick to printed rules should have run the train to advertised time.

Firstly put in delay repay claim, in theory easy, but sadly when a journey involves multiple operators seems not to be smooth, should get 100% refunded. (But keep a scan of your tickets before cutting in half, even if you then cut them in half and scan again for delay repay). Keep them anyway until this is resolved.

When you get a letter, simply apologise for forgetting whole railcard, and send photocopy of it (all parts) back (assuming as you indicate it is valid), hopefully if haven't done it before will close matter. I suggest you then attach print out of scan of £200 of tickets too (or if replying by email the scans). so they can see tickets with railcard existed. You might know they were, but a clerk other end getting dozens a day won't know so make it easy for them to close it rather than think something else was also wrong.

tiptoptaff · 8 Apr 2024

Pedro123 said:
It was in between strike days thus very disrupted with lots of cancellations and smaller trains, plus more people traveling who couldn’t travel on the 6th. I bought £200 of tickets and produced the documents I had. Why would I have half a railcard if I didn’t have the full one.

Because using incorrect/expired/borrowed/any other excuse Railcards is an extremely common form of fare evasion.

EDIT - Just want to clarify I'm not accusing you of that, but pointing out Railcard discrepancies are a common way that genuine fare evaders attempt to evade the correct fare due.

Pedro123 · 8 Apr 2024

janb said:
HM Forces railcard, can take up to 4 accompanied children.

I had someone a few days ago attempt to buy discounted tickets with only the photocard and warrant card, no railcard. I obviously declined to do so.

So my ticket was forced railcard, my eldest son (16) used his 16/17 saver and my youngest is 8, no railcard. We travelled down together and I returned on my own. I bought the whole lot as a batch on Trainline and produced e writhing via my phone. I’ve got everything, but the missing bit is in Plymouth sadly. I’d usually pay a top up for the over site as that was my fault. But the s pint demanded given what had already been paid and the state if the service, I got emotional and said no. (I get that that’s irrelevant compared to the rule book). I’m not trying to fraudulently attain anything.

tiptoptaff said:
Because using incorrect/expired/borrowed/any other excuse Railcards is an extremely common form of fare evasion.

EDIT - Just want to clarify I'm not accusing you of that, but pointing out Railcard discrepancies are a common way that genuine fare evaders attempt to evade the correct fare due.

Fare enough. Im
Not a teenager though, I’m a middle aged bloke who travels long haul every week. I spend thousands on rail travel every year

Snow1964 said:
I can understand why you were rather narked, if delayed 3 hours, then someone decides to be pedantic with the rules. After all if wanted to stick to printed rules should have run the train to advertised time.

Firstly put in delay repay claim, in theory easy, but sadly when a journey involves multiple operators seems not to be smooth, should get 100% refunded. (But keep a scan of your tickets before cutting in half, even if you then cut them in half and scan again for delay repay). Keep them anyway until this is resolved.

When you get a letter, simply apologise for forgetting whole railcard, and send photocopy of it (all parts) back (assuming as you indicate it is valid), hopefully if haven't done it before will close matter. I suggest you then attach print out of scan of £200 of tickets too (or if replying by email the scans).

Thanks. If/when I get a letter I’ll write back along these lines. Appreciated

tiptoptaff · 8 Apr 2024

Pedro123 said:
Fare enough. Im
Not a teenager though, I’m a middle aged bloke who travels long haul every week. I spend thousands on rail travel every year

Objection- relevance?

Pedro123 · 8 Apr 2024

tiptoptaff said:
Objection- relevance?

Nothing really. Just to say this isn’t an attempt at evasion. It was an oversite and I felt meticulous adhesion to the rules resulting in asking for further significant payment on a day when nothing ran on time (or at all), and what did was grossly overcrowded is a bit unbalanced.

tiptoptaff · 8 Apr 2024

Pedro123 said:
Nothing really. Just to say this isn’t an attempt at evasion. It was an oversite and I felt meticulous adhesion to the rules resulting in asking for further significant payment on a day when nothing ran on time (or at all), and what did was grossly overcrowded is a bit unbalanced.

No but delays get you compensation and there's no right to not pay what's due because it's overcrowded.

And none of what you said about your age and travel habits have any baring on this event. In fact, I'd argue if you do travel on the card regularly, you should have been more aware than a less regular traveler that you needed both parts of your railcard

WesternLancer · 8 Apr 2024

Hi - I assume @Pedro123 should take the following actions

- Now: submit a claim for delay repay to the train operator that caused the delay (if details of the trains taken on the journey are posted people here can check the delays and advice who to claim from) - I think it is important to do this now whilst Delay Repay time window is still valid - I think you get 21 days to submit claims

- Hope that the matter can be resolved by uploading the full railcard when contacted by the railway about the incident - that would hopefully remove risk of prosecution threat and close the matter without too much trouble

- If they move to the standard 'threat of prosecution are there any mitigating circumstances?' letter then head back here for best advice on how to reply to that.

Pedro123 · 8 Apr 2024

WesternLancer said:
Hi - I assume @Pedro123 should take the following actions

- Now: submit a claim for delay repay to the train operator that caused the delay (if details of the trains taken on the journey are posted people here can check the delays and advice who to claim from) - I think it is important to do this now whilst Delay Repay time window is still valid - I think you get 21 days to submit claims

- Hope that the matter can be resolved by uploading the full railcard when contacted by the railway about the incident - that would hopefully remove risk of prosecution threat and close the matter without too much trouble

- If they move to the standard 'threat of prosecution are there any mitigating circumstances?' letter then head back here for best advice on how to reply to that.

Thank you, that’s great.

WesternLancer · 8 Apr 2024

Pedro123 said:
Thank you, that’s great.

I can't see that submitting Delay Repay now will have any great influence on how any subsequent aspects of the case are considered, so long as your delay repay claim is valid and correct of course. But if you do not claim it now they will be sure to deny the claim if it is submitted out of time as most of not all such claims are at least initially dealt with via automated processes.

Refused to pay

Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member