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WCRC loses judicial review in High Court

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Which two operators are these that haven't 'shown any results' and how do you know that to be the case? Are you in direct personal contact with their fleet engineers? Have you personally been around their carriage workshops to determine that no work has taken place to date? Are are you just making assumptions?
Vintage Trains and NYMR. Nothing has been posted on their social media about it and I havent seen any evidence on sets that have been out and about, nor nothing on here. Yes it's an assumption but its hardly the only assumption on this thread.
 
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12LDA28C

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Vintage Trains and NYMR. Nothing has been posted on their social media about it and I havent seen any evidence on sets that have been out and about, nor nothing on here. Yes it's an assumption but its hardly the only assumption on this thread.

Why should they post on their social media about it? It's really nobody's business but their own. For all you and I know VT may have a coach in the workshops right now being fitted, and the NYMR I believe have been permitted to run to Whitby at a maximum speed of 25mph without CDL.
 

Railwaycat

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No, the safety standards a passenger boat skipper/owner are required to meet includes the safety of all their passengers.. To suggest that means they would have to be locked in is ridiciulous.
Of course it's ridiculous! But there's clearly no safety standards that prevent an individual from jumping or falling overboard, yet, in theory, there could be. Shouting "Don't stand on the seats" is hardly a sound safety practice.
 

43096

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The 1999 Regulations state that hinged doors must be centrally locked and hence any operators passengers will be locked in, there is no debate on that. As already posted above;

"Prohibition of hinged doors 5.— (1) No person shall operate, and no infrastructure controller shall permit the operation of any rolling stock on a railway if the rolling stock has hinged doors for use by passengers for boarding and alighting from the train (other than doors which have a means of centrally locking them in a closed position)"

(Note - It does not stipulate "CDL").
What do you think the bit I have highlighted in bold red means, other than CDL? Because it certainly doesn't mean stewards unlocking each door individually. In otjher words, it stipulates a CDL system.
 

paul1609

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Vintage Trains and NYMR. Nothing has been posted on their social media about it and I havent seen any evidence on sets that have been out and about, nor nothing on here. Yes it's an assumption but its hardly the only assumption on this thread.
VT certainly have a plan. Its not clear to me whether its received engineering accreditation yet or whether installation has started.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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They could just as easily have used the same paths but described the trains as Class 5; Different Rules and Regs apply to passenger trains as opposed to non-passenger.

Nothing inherently wrong with running non-advertised passenger trains without any passengers under a Class 2 headcode. Don’t try and stir up trouble where there isn’t any. It could have been a staff refresher/training run.
 
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They could just as easily have used the same paths but described the trains as Class 5; Different Rules and Regs apply to passenger trains as opposed to non-passenger.
All headcodes are for are as aids to the signaller, theirs no legal standing nor does it affect PIS
 

BrianW

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Four of the other five are Tories (Jamie Stone is Lib Dem). Graham Brady (Chairman of the 1922 Committee) is well known for his libertarian views (e.g. opposition to Covid restrictions) and might be expected to support the WCR position on principle.
IIUC each of the signatories has connections/ interests that made them susceptible to an invite to 'sign up'. I don't wish to impugn their integrity- they are 'honourable members' (maybe 'right honourable'?) and will be subjected to 'the will of the people' in due course, maybe after ORR has responded. I hope and expect that ORR will decide matters professionally, i.e. without any suggestion of coercion or being 'leaned on'.
 

Falcon1200

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Don’t try and stir up trouble where there isn’t any.

Why would it be difficult for WCRC to have run these trains as Class 5, and avoid stirring up (more) possible trouble for themselves?

All headcodes are for are as aids to the signaller, theirs no legal standing nor does it affect PIS

As I said earlier, passenger trains, ie Classes 1, 2 and 9, run under different conditions than other types of train.
Also, headcodes indicating type of train are aids to other railway staff as well as Signallers.
 

Jim the Jim

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Of course it's ridiculous! But there's clearly no safety standards that prevent an individual from jumping or falling overboard, yet, in theory, there could be. Shouting "Don't stand on the seats" is hardly a sound safety practice.
I think I largely agree with you but boats will have measures to rescue people after they jump or fall out, which would be largely pointless on a train.
 

Bill57p9

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According to the MPs’ letter, “Neither WCRC nor RTC will be able to withstand the financial costs of cancelling their services for a minimum of 4 months … while the full application is considered”.

So they should be gone by August.

WCRC posted an update on their website on 5 Apr with the conclusion:
If you would like to help get the Jacobite back on track, you can sign this petition, started by a Mallaig business owner, here or you can contact the ORR via [email protected].
I for one will be taking them up on that invite to contact the ORR to encourage them to work with WCRC to get the Jacobite back on track through a plan for compliance.
 

Railwaycat

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I think I largely agree with you but boats will have measures to rescue people after they jump or fall out, which would be largely pointless on a train.
Small boats yes, but ferries for example? If no one sees you, you're gone - and they could be legislated to keep everyone locked in, it's done in bad weather...or is that just a verbal order not to go on deck?
 

43096

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WCRC posted an update on their website on 5 Apr with the conclusion:

I for one will be taking them up on that invite to contact the ORR to encourage them to work with WCRC to get the Jacobite back on track through a plan for compliance.
You should be aware of a potential conflict of interest - the person who started that petition runs a Harry Potter-themed shop in Mallaig, plus a shop at Fort William station. Wonder why she's so keen for the Jacobite to continue?!

Why are you contacting the ORR? The intransigence is all with WCRC.
 

800001

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According to the MPs’ letter, “Neither WCRC nor RTC will be able to withstand the financial costs of cancelling their services for a minimum of 4 months … while the full application is considered”.

So they should be gone by August.

WCRC posted an update on their website on 5 Apr with the conclusion:

I for one will be taking them up on that invite to contact the ORR to encourage them to work with WCRC to get the Jacobite back on track through a plan for compliance.
But WCRC have had several years to come up with a plan for compliance, same as all the other companies, but has chosen not to.
 

Wolfie

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Legislation can and often is changed.
True but not generally in response to self-interested bleating after an emphatic Court loss.

Though I suspect that if WCRC were to come back with a proper time bound plan, even one taking several years, they might well earn themselves a new exemption. The ORRs issue appears to be that WCRC's view is that they need to do nothing not that it might take a few years for them to fund and carry out the works.

Of course equally the ORR might now be so distrustful of WCRC perhaps they wouldn't be willing to offer an exemption on that basis. Though in that case WCRC, again, only have themselves to blame for managing to make the regulator so distrusting of their operations.
Balanced. Can they be trusted to apply mitigations properly? Precedent says not.

I hope WCRC don't waste time and money on appealing the judgement, accept it, provide a serious schedule of work to comply within a realistic period agreed with the ORR and actually show they're doing it. Then, with spot checks on progress and compliance a further time limited exemption should be agreed.

The tone of the judgement strongly suggests that is the ORR's view. Hopefully WCRC have had long enough to see that coming and should be prepared. Their website advertises services available to book now throughout 2024. That's either foolhardy stubbornness or awareness of an acceptable plan.

One more incident without taking action would finish them off. Insurance premiums must already be loaded against them now.
That would have been sensible. However the bloke running WCRC had other ideas....

According to the MPs’ letter, “Neither WCRC nor RTC will be able to withstand the financial costs of cancelling their services for a minimum of 4 months … while the full application is considered”.

So they should be gone by August.

WCRC posted an update on their website on 5 Apr with the conclusion:

I for one will be taking them up on that invite to contact the ORR to encourage them to work with WCRC to get the Jacobite back on track through a plan for compliance.
Re your last para ORR previously did exactly that and WCRC drove a coach and horses through the mitigations. Why should they be trusted again?
 
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Deepgreen

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Well Merseyrails safety record from 2005 is not to hot, a death with a guard sent to prison , drivers running through buffers due to distraction etc. I stand by my original point.
You are right there, but I think the difference here is that the TOC (WCRC) repeatedly committed exactly the same offences (while promising not to), rather than the different ones on Merseyrail.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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NR designate the headcodes as requested by the Train Operator, if the Train Operator subsequently chooses to run a train as a different class it is up to them to advise NR accordingly.

But it isn’t a requirement if they’re intending to run a passenger path without passengers. At worst it is a right-side failure - any specific signalling provisions will be more than than the minimum required (although in this specific case - a very simple RETB-controlled branch line - I doubt there are any?)

It would be an issue the other way around of course.
 

ainsworth74

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Only one of which has actually been completed on mark loco hauled stock (which unlike the WC set had ETH and air brakes) and do you have any links to any information on what is costs?
I mean it seems highly unlikely that the ORR were committing perjury by saying something to the court that wasn't true so I'd have assumed we could just take them at face value. However, apparently, we cannot take them at face value because there must be something else behind WCRC other than intransigence.

Thankfully the ORR publish all sorts of documents including the impact assessment that they relied upon in court on their website (a copy is also attached for posterity). From which we can see that the ORRs basis is as follows:

The objective of this impact assessment has been to gather cost data from those charter operators who have either fitted CDL or a fitting CDL. These are, Hastings Diesels (CDL is fitted), Locomotive services and Vintage Trains (both currently fitting CDL). Additional information was sought from WABTEC (availability of recovered components) and Arlington Fleet Services (design-from-scratch estimations).

The whole thing is quite interesting in a technical sort of way and they did actually ask for some consideration of a design from scratch fitment rather than just using existing designs which came out at a higher figure of £50,000 per vehicle, still way short of WCRC £7m or £12m cost. Obviously these costs are all from 2020/21 so add a lot of inflation to them but it still seems utterly improbably to the point of insulting ones intelligence to suggest that the costs would have risen to the millions of pounds.

There's also an interesting bit at the very end which again goes to show that the ORR are quite willing to work with operators as long as there is a plan:

The ‘no means to achieve’ argument

For some operators, particularly smaller operators who operate on minimal profit margins and who had no income during the Covid 19 pandemic there are likely to be issues raised on their ability to pay for the fitment of a form of CDL in the short to medium term. The guidance of the Health and Safety Executive [which ORR follows] is that ‘the ability of the duty holder to afford a control measure is not a legitimate factor in the assessment of costs. This ensures that duty holders are presented with a level playing field’*.

This position ensures that staff and public can expect comparable levels of safety regardless of the operator of a train service. ORR’s position on exemptions and timescales for implementation provides a pathway to compliance for these smaller operators. This is set out in the revised guidance and essentially requires operators who cannot achieve compliance for CDL to have a plan and a deadline for achieving compliance.

(*The HSE text is from R2P2, appendix 3, section 19, right at the end)

Again, WCRC would have been perfectly entitled to spread the work out over a number of years and during the off season to avoid losing out on making money. I have very little doubt that the ORR would have happily gone on issuing exemptions on that basis to allow them to carry out a planned fitment over a period of time that was compatible with their financial and physical capacity to do the work.

WCRC chose instead to try and argue that the law, which has been law for over twenty years, was in fact not the law. Indeed the ORR also give quite a handy background:

Background

The Railway Safety Regulations 1999 Reg 5 imposes an absolute duty in law to fit central door locking (CDL) to railway carriages fitted with hinged doors if they are to be used in service on the mainline railway.

Such carriages are used by mainline railway charter train operators as an integral part of providing a historic train-travel experience. At the time of coming into effect of the regulation it was neither logistically possible nor in some cases technically possible, to fit CDL to such carriages. Accordingly, Her Majesty’s Railway Inspectorate (HMRI, which was then in the Health and Safety Executive - HSE) took advantage of the exemption provisions within the regulations and issued exemptions to charter operators on an individual carriage basis to allow operations to continue and on the proviso that a secondary locking mechanism was fitted and secured in place during travel. This was typically achieved by the addition of a bolt fitted at a high level and secured in place by a ‘steward’ allocated to the carriage.

Underpinning the issue of exemption was an expectation by HMRI that over time Charter fleet operators would progressively fit CDL as carriages came in for maintenance, significant repair or overhaul and that in due course use of exemption could be dispensed with. One charter operator – Hastings Diesels – undertook such fitment circa 2006. Similarly London Underground also had CDL fitted to its “4TC” set of four carriages in the early 2000’s.

In 2018 (19 years after the introduction of RSR) HMRI - now the Railway Safety Directorate of ORR, concluded that a sufficient period of time had elapsed for such fitment to be achieved and therefore undertook a redrafting of its guidance on RSR and CDL. In its consultation it proposed cessation of the routine issue of exemptions from 2023 as existing ones expired. In knowledge and anticipation of these changes two further charter train operators have commenced fitment of CDL to their carriage fleets.

The sector has had since 1999 to get its house in order and the warning shots started coming across the bow in 2018. If WCRC have decided to ignore all of that, have decided, even now when the ORR would probably still agree to an exemption, to still ignore the law and instead take costly legal action (I wonder how many carriages they could have paid to have fitted with CDL for all the legal fees?) and now try to then fight it out in the court of public opinion when they're told they're on a hiding to nothing by the court then really they only have themselves to blame.

I cannot understand the people who are still insisting that it's the nasty ORR who are somehow at fault here.
 

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Wolfie

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I mean it seems highly unlikely that the ORR were committing perjury by saying something to the court that wasn't true so I'd have assumed we could just take them at face value. However, apparently, we cannot take them at face value because there must be something else behind WCRC other than intransigence.

Thankfully the ORR publish all sorts of documents including the impact assessment that they relied upon in court on their website (a copy is also attached for posterity). From which we can see that the ORRs basis is as follows:



The whole thing is quite interesting in a technical sort of way and they did actually ask for some consideration of a design from scratch fitment rather than just using existing designs which came out at a higher figure of £50,000 per vehicle, still way short of WCRC £7m or £12m cost. Obviously these costs are all from 2020/21 so add a lot of inflation to them but it still seems utterly improbably to the point of insulting ones intelligence to suggest that the costs would have risen to the millions of pounds.

There's also an interesting bit at the very end which again goes to show that the ORR are quite willing to work with operators as long as there is a plan:



Again, WCRC would have been perfectly entitled to spread the work out over a number of years and during the off season to avoid losing out on making money. I have very little doubt that the ORR would have happily gone on issuing exemptions on that basis to allow them to carry out a planned fitment over a period of time that was compatible with their financial and physical capacity to do the work.

WCRC chose instead to try and argue that the law, which has been law for over twenty years, was in fact not the law. Indeed the ORR also give quite a handy background:



The sector has had since 1999 to get its house in order and the warning shots started coming across the bow in 2018. If WCRC have decided to ignore all of that, have decided, even now when the ORR would probably still agree to an exemption, to still ignore the law and instead take costly legal action (I wonder how many carriages they could have paid to have fitted with CDL for all the legal fees?) and now try to then fight it out in the court of public opinion when they're told they're on a hiding to nothing by the court then really they only have themselves to blame.

I cannot understand the people who are still insisting that it's the nasty ORR who are somehow at fault here.
That, sir, is a fine setting out of the facts. TY. The relevant legislation came within a year of WCRC being established....
 

Bill57p9

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My post was possibly too subtle: I am contacting ORR, as suggested by WCRC themselves, but to show support for the expectation of compliance as the route to ”getting the Jacobite on track”. I totally agree that WCRC are the issue here and the spin is disgraceful, especially given last year’s failure to comply with the conditions of the exemption.
 

mike57

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especially given last year’s failure to comply with the conditions of the exemption.
Its this bit that makes me think that the ORR will now insist on full compliance.

Had WCRC complied with the terms of the exemption wrt to stewards and passed the inspection with flying colours then I could of foreseen a situation where they could of obtained a much longer term exemption (not going to say for ever, but certainly open ended) specifically for the Fort William - Mallaig service based on:

45mph max speed
Single line operation, no passing trains at speed
Stewards in vestibules
Manual supplementary door locks

With effective stewarding being the main mitigation

They wouldn't be able to use the stock on any other services, but that wouldn't be a problem.
 

Bill57p9

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They wouldn't be able to use the stock on any other services, but that wouldn't be a problem.
Just a theory, or is this actually the crux: WCRC have made an application for a full exemption, rather than one limited to 45mph & the West Highland Line Extension.
 

mike57

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WCRC have made an application for a full exemption, rather than one limited to 45mph & the West Highland Line Extension.
To be honest, given where we are now I dont think it matters. WCRC did not comply with the terms and got a prohibition notice.

Its sad because if WCRC had complied with the original terms they could probably have made a good case for continuing under the current arrangements on the Fort William - Mallaig service indefinitely. One has to wonder what is going through the minds of those in control at WCRC, its pretty much common sense, stick to the rules, and prove you can operate safely, then apply for a longer term exemption for this service only. You save a lot of money, time and pain fitting a system to old rolling stock.

Instead we have a situation where the people in charge at WCRC have ignored the regulator requirements and been the subject of a prohibition notice, taken the regulator on, failed, and no Jacobite service for the moment. It doesn't make business sense.
 

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