• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Bee Network Service Improvements (Existing services)

Tim33160

Member
Joined
18 Feb 2019
Messages
115
Cancellations appear to be mainly from Oldham depot - so Tranche two. Frustratingly Bee Network only list the routes that may suffer from cancellations - but not the actual journeys! These lists have appeared daily since Saturday but disappear after that day.

Timetable changes coming for the Vantage (do they still use that name anywhere?) routes from April 7th.

There will be two extra V4 journeys in the morning, and timetables throughout the day will change to improve reliability by increasing running times. Off peak journey times towards Manchester seem to be increased by 6 minutes, some shoulder peak journeys have increases up to 15 minutes.

It should improve reliability, but in the longer term if TfGM want to increase passenger numbers they need to be reducing the impact of traffic on journey times.
Further timetable changes for Tranche One routes (plus non-franchised 150) are appearing on Bee Network pages
https://www.tfgm.com/travel-updates/travel-alerts then select BUS > TOMORROW > ROUTES and TIMETABLES for the list and links to new timetables

Note: Bee Network like to use am and pm times rather than 24h formats!
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
20,058
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
Tranche 2 has only been running for a few days. If I recall there were also teething problems with Tranche 1 back in September. Punctuality has since improved and according to the published statistics, punctuality statistics are better than before the Bee Network.
Ok so here's something, not for @johncrossley to answer per se but open to everyone. Roger French was particularly acerbic about Bee Network and the congestion busting properties of the paint.

I wouldn't be so provocative so here's the question... There's been no change in terms of bus priority so why has punctuality improved?

Is it that times have been revised to create more margin (and incurring more resources?) and/or
Is it that the penalty/reward regime is that it's more cost effective to have more resources?

Genuine open question
 

Andyh82

Established Member
Joined
19 May 2014
Messages
3,542
Cancellations appear to be mainly from Oldham depot - so Tranche two. Frustratingly Bee Network only list the routes that may suffer from cancellations - but not the actual journeys! These lists have appeared daily since Saturday but disappear after that day.


Further timetable changes for Tranche One routes (plus non-franchised 150) are appearing on Bee Network pages
https://www.tfgm.com/travel-updates/travel-alerts then select BUS > TOMORROW > ROUTES and TIMETABLES for the list and links to new timetables

Note: Bee Network like to use am and pm times rather than 24h formats!
I’m not a fan of service changes just sneaking unannounced onto the Travel Alerts page and then sneaking off again
 

markymark2000

On Moderation
Joined
11 May 2015
Messages
3,578
Location
Western Part of the UK
Tranche 2 has only been running for a few days. If I recall there were also teething problems with Tranche 1 back in September. Punctuality has since improved and according to the published statistics, punctuality statistics are better than before the Bee Network.
The punctuality stats don't include cancellations. Many people have tried to get Bee Network to answer on Twitter but they refuse to say anything so someone posted an extract from a TFGM email which says as such.

Just quoting the small relevant part of the email shown on the tweet.
cancelled services would be included under service reliability data rather than punctuality.

This means that of the services that did run, they were more reliable. Based off how I have seen and dealt with bus operations, under the deregulated model operators tend to keep buses running when they are late however under franchising, the incentive seems to be punctuality or frequency and so if a bus is late, it's financially better to drop part or all of a trip to get the bus back on time.

I am not saying this is how it is but as an example, which is better. 75% of buses running on time but 15% of them are cancelled, or is it better to have 64% reliability but only 5% of them are cancelled? More punctual under franchising but based off the many reports on Twitter/X, the number of cancellations is far higher. TFGM are trying not to release these details because they know it would significantly change how people see the Bee Network.
 

Attachments

  • 1712159007743.png
    1712159007743.png
    360.9 KB · Views: 27

47550

Member
Joined
14 Jul 2017
Messages
182
Location
Manchester
Ok so here's something, not for @johncrossley to answer per se but open to everyone. Roger French was particularly acerbic about Bee Network and the congestion busting properties of the paint.

I wouldn't be so provocative so here's the question... There's been no change in terms of bus priority so why has punctuality improved?

Is it that times have been revised to create more margin (and incurring more resources?) and/or
Is it that the penalty/reward regime is that it's more cost effective to have more resources?

Genuine open question

I don't know the specific answer but it wouldn't surprise me if the operators are paid bonuses depending on performance. Hence there is focus on punctuality by the operators meaning they will look at things like having extra turns so that a late inbound service doesn't lead to the outbound service starting late or more overtime available to cover absence etc.
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
20,058
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
I don't know the specific answer but it wouldn't surprise me if the operators are paid bonuses depending on performance. Hence there is focus on punctuality by the operators meaning they will look at things like having extra turns so that a late inbound service doesn't lead to the outbound service starting late or more overtime available to cover absence etc.
I think that's what I'm asking

Is it that there's some bonus/malus system of reward and penalty, so that it is more cost effective to have additional resources to hand in order to avoid onerous penalties?

That would address one element of punctuality (i.e. does the service run) but don't know if they changed any running times?
 

158756

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2014
Messages
1,449
Further timetable changes for Tranche One routes (plus non-franchised 150) are appearing on Bee Network pages
https://www.tfgm.com/travel-updates/travel-alerts then select BUS > TOMORROW > ROUTES and TIMETABLES for the list and links to new timetables

Note: Bee Network like to use am and pm times rather than 24h formats!

I'm not sure there have been many changes to running times until now, but that seems to be the main idea of these timetable changes, increasing running times to improve reliability. The busway routes and the 163 seem to be the biggest routes affected, plus lots of smaller routes operated by Diamond.

Just looking at some of these timetables, this isn't a new thing but the 126 and 132 to the Trafford Centre must have the most generous timetables around in the morning peak. Buses are timetabled to take up to 42 minutes from Boothstown to the Trafford Centre, a journey which takes 14 minutes off peak. This morning the three buses with the long running times arrived 18, 26 and 28 minutes early. I know the traffic gets bad on the M60, but at what point are potential passengers put off more by the inflated journey time than the possibility of being late?
 

mangad

Member
Joined
26 Jan 2024
Messages
64
Location
Stockport
I'm not sure there have been many changes to running times until now, but that seems to be the main idea of these timetable changes, increasing running times to improve reliability. The busway routes and the 163 seem to be the biggest routes affected, plus lots of smaller routes operated by Diamond.

Just looking at some of these timetables, this isn't a new thing but the 126 and 132 to the Trafford Centre must have the most generous timetables around in the morning peak. Buses are timetabled to take up to 42 minutes from Boothstown to the Trafford Centre, a journey which takes 14 minutes off peak. This morning the three buses with the long running times arrived 18, 26 and 28 minutes early. I know the traffic gets bad on the M60, but at what point are potential passengers put off more by the inflated journey time than the possibility of being late?
It's Easter school holidays. Traffic on the M60 won't be as bad as usual.
 

158756

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2014
Messages
1,449
It's Easter school holidays. Traffic on the M60 won't be as bad as usual.

Were the schools off in that area last week as well? Last Wednesday those same buses were 21, 32 and 8 (after being 15 minutes late at Boothstown) minutes early. The week before the traffic must have been worse but the two that have tracking were still 10 and 11 minutes early.

This will be at least partly due to school holidays but the 132 at 0653 from Wigan this morning looks ridiculous. According to bustimes it waited about 5 minutes at Hindley, 12 minutes at Atherton, 8 minutes at Boothstown and arrived at the Trafford Centre 26 minutes early.
 

mangad

Member
Joined
26 Jan 2024
Messages
64
Location
Stockport
Were the schools off in that area last week as well? Last Wednesday those same buses were 21, 32 and 8 (after being 15 minutes late at Boothstown) minutes early. The week before the traffic must have been worse but the two that have tracking were still 10 and 11 minutes early.

This will be at least partly due to school holidays but the 132 at 0653 from Wigan this morning looks ridiculous. According to bustimes it waited about 5 minutes at Hindley, 12 minutes at Atherton, 8 minutes at Boothstown and arrived at the Trafford Centre 26 minutes early.
Some schools may have been off. I dont know. They do vary across the country. They vary between neighbouring council area.

So, what at was the week before like? What about in two weeks time?

If it's a regular problem, no doubt someone will fix it. But I can't imagine anything will change purely on the basis of the week before and week after Easter.

Either way, the M60 is regularly a nightmare and I would expect there will always be rush hour padding.
 

JD2168

Member
Joined
11 Jul 2022
Messages
941
Location
Sheffield
These running times sound as bad as a AI timetable from First where some of the running times seem very generous at times. Waiting up to 10 minutes at bus stops for the times will put passengers off from using those journeys & routes.

I have often been sat on an X78 at Warmsworth towards Sheffield for example for at least 5 minutes with the generous running times.
 

esmith2k5

New Member
Joined
27 Jun 2023
Messages
4
Location
Manchester
As a local to the 126/132, they need them sort of running times as 9/10 times its horrendous. Boothstown to Worsley can take ages and then with the M60 on top of that too
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
32,439
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
As a local to the 126/132, they need them sort of running times as 9/10 times its horrendous. Boothstown to Worsley can take ages and then with the M60 on top of that too
Is one of these the one that sometimes used to stop at a certain bus stop in Boothstown for quite a few minutes after starting its journey from the Trafford Centre bus station?
 

esmith2k5

New Member
Joined
27 Jun 2023
Messages
4
Location
Manchester
In the daytime yeah they often stop on Leigh road at the top of the RHS when needed, that or Boothstown post office.
 

mayneway

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2024
Messages
34
Location
Manchester
Is it not the case that there have been slightly more driver availability problems at the start of Tranche 2 than was the case at the start of Tranche 1?
Yes and no. Tranche 1 still has massive driver shortage issues but with the aid of two driver agency’s is heavily propped up with drivers from all over the country. Something I only found out yesterday is that there is a clause in the contracts between TFGM and operators that says agency drivers mustn’t be used and that all staff should be employed directly, but this was relaxed for Tranche 1 because TFGM needed GNW to operate the 163 earlier because diamond pulled off it.
Operators in tranche 2 and 3 will not be able to use agency drivers.

The other issue with tranche 2 is that a great deal of work has been shifted from queens road to Oldham, but with First taking quite a lot of Oldham drivers with them to Rochdale it’s left a huge hole. There’s now more drivers being seconded in from other depots and I believe Middleton and queens are running some boards on the 17/18 this week.

Would this situation have been any different if the Bee Network had not come into being and buses were operated by the bus companies who ran these services?
Yes course it would. Oldham depot was pretty much fully staffed before the Tranche 2 launch.
It’s basically a domino effect.
Some Rosso drivers at Rochdale have stayed with Transdev, likewise First have taken around 40% of its drivers from Oldham to Rochdale along with most of its allocators and engineers so your left with a huge hole at Oldham. Add to that the fact TFGM have moved the 17/18 to Oldham despite not having the drivers to run it. It’s a mess.

The only saving grace is the fact stagecoach have lost most of the Tranche 3 depots so it’s expected many drivers from Ashton, Hyde road and Sharston will want to remain with stagecoach and look at transferring to Oldham but in the short term it’s not going to get any better.

Ok so here's something, not for @johncrossley to answer per se but open to everyone. Roger French was particularly acerbic about Bee Network and the congestion busting properties of the paint.

I wouldn't be so provocative so here's the question... There's been no change in terms of bus priority so why has punctuality improved?

Is it that times have been revised to create more margin (and incurring more resources?) and/or
Is it that the penalty/reward regime is that it's more cost effective to have more resources?

Genuine open question
From a drivers point of view, and you raise a very very good question NO! Nothing has changed.

In fact the depot I work at which is T2 suffered greatly with unrealistic running times before bee network took over last month, we were all hoping running times would be made more realistic and it would help greatly but what I’ve actually found is we are running on exactly the same times as previously. The odd timing point has been changed but when you look at the departure times and the arrival times it’s a mirror image of before 24th March.
 
Last edited:

johncrossley

Established Member
Joined
30 Mar 2021
Messages
3,006
Location
London
In fact the depot I work at which is T2 suffered greatly with unrealistic running times before bee network took over last month, we were all hoping running times would be made more realistic and it would help greatly but what I’ve actually found is we are running on exactly the same times as previously. The odd timing point has been changed but when you look at the departure times and the arrival times it’s a mirror image of before 24th March.

Do you get extra recovery time at terminus points?
 

mayneway

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2024
Messages
34
Location
Manchester
I'm not sure there have been many changes to running times until now, but that seems to be the main idea of these timetable changes, increasing running times to improve reliability. The busway routes and the 163 seem to be the biggest routes affected, plus lots of smaller routes operated by Diamond.

Just looking at some of these timetables, this isn't a new thing but the 126 and 132 to the Trafford Centre must have the most generous timetables around in the morning peak. Buses are timetabled to take up to 42 minutes from Boothstown to the Trafford Centre, a journey which takes 14 minutes off peak. This morning the three buses with the long running times arrived 18, 26 and 28 minutes early. I know the traffic gets bad on the M60, but at what point are potential passengers put off more by the inflated journey time than the possibility of being late?

Do you get extra recovery time at terminus points?
I’ve only done one week as I’m on annual leave but I’ve not really seen any extra recovery time on the routes I did last week. The scheduling is strange. One duty last week I did two trips on one route with 5 mins recovery time either end, back to depot for 39 min meal break (tight) and then up to relief point to take bus off, then sit on bus for 35 minutes before leaving in service.
 
Last edited:

Andyh82

Established Member
Joined
19 May 2014
Messages
3,542
Is there a historical reason why service 7 (Ashton to Stockport) has such an unusual low number?

Should it be renumbered 207 or 307?

Once the Wigan services are renumbered tomorrow and excluding the free buses, this service 7 will now be the lowest numbered TfGM/Bee Network service
 

158756

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2014
Messages
1,449
Is there a historical reason why service 7 (Ashton to Stockport) has such an unusual low number?

Should it be renumbered 207 or 307?

Once the Wigan services are renumbered tomorrow and excluding the free buses, this service 7 will now be the lowest numbered TfGM/Bee Network service

According to this website https://www.railwaymedia.co.uk/Timetables/GM001/n-gnh7MF which has a huge number of old timetables but I'd never heard of it until tonight, the number 7 is a service introduced by Bee Line in 1987, which would explain why it doesn't follow the old numbering system.

The original Bee Line service in 1987 ran between Stockport and Gorton, every 5 minutes (!!!). Via numerous changes of route, timetable and operator, by 1991 it became a GM Buses South service running from Stockport to Ashton every 20 minutes.
 

Whisky Papa

Member
Joined
8 Aug 2019
Messages
395
According to this website https://www.railwaymedia.co.uk/Timetables/GM001/n-gnh7MF which has a huge number of old timetables but I'd never heard of it until tonight, the number 7 is a service introduced by Bee Line in 1987, which would explain why it doesn't follow the old numbering system.

The original Bee Line service in 1987 ran between Stockport and Gorton, every 5 minutes (!!!). Via numerous changes of route, timetable and operator, by 1991 it became a GM Buses South service running from Stockport to Ashton every 20 minutes.
What a brilliant website - thanks for the link!

Another surprisingly low number is the Manchester - Flixton 15, which inherited its number from the Little Gem P14 and P15 between Stretford Arndale and Flixton that were introduced to combat Bee Line Buzz 20 and 21 Stockport - Flixton services.

EDIT - upon checking the timetables on the linked website, it turns out it was originally P15 and P16 between Stretford and Flixton. The move to P14 and P15 came when they were extended via Firswood to Piccadilly, which came much sooner than I'd realised, in November 1987.
 
Last edited:

158756

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2014
Messages
1,449
What a brilliant website - thanks for the link!

Another surprisingly low number is the Manchester - Flixton 15, which inherited its number from the Little Gem P14 and P15 between Stretford Arndale and Flixton that were introduced to combat Bee Line Buzz 20 and 21 Stockport - Flixton services.

Also the 11, which gets its number from the Little Gem S11, launched in 1987 as a Stockport - Gatley service (running every 7/8 minutes), presumably to combat Bee Line route 1 launched three weeks earlier, running every 5 minutes between Stockport and Altrincham along roughly the route now served by the 11 (but at a much reduced frequency of every 20 minutes)
 

Bungle965

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
2 Jul 2014
Messages
2,852
Location
Blackley and Broughton/ Walsall South
Are Stagecoach struggling for vehicle availability? Noticed a Solo has been on the 41 today:
Not exactly the most appropriate vehicle for that route, I seem to recall that it's happened before with GNW pre franchising also.
 

baza585

Member
Joined
1 Aug 2010
Messages
641
Are Stagecoach struggling for vehicle availability? Noticed a Solo has been on the 41 today:
Not exactly the most appropriate vehicle for that route, I seem to recall that it's happened before with GNW pre franchising also.
As always with Bustimes, it could simply be a ticket machine swap, unless you have an actual sighting......
 

Bungle965

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
2 Jul 2014
Messages
2,852
Location
Blackley and Broughton/ Walsall South
As always with Bustimes, it could simply be a ticket machine swap, unless you have an actual sighting......
Of course, however a post on Facebook lead me to have a look on Bustimes to confirm if it was still out.

 

baza585

Member
Joined
1 Aug 2010
Messages
641
But I thought that when the yellow buses were up and running, all those "nasty private operators" bus provision problems would all magically disappear.
That's what we were told! So far, for all the hype and money spent by TfGM, there has been little or no improvement in the service delivered.
 

Top