Cycle Bag Searching at Stations

AllWork · 9 Apr 2024

As it happens this morning I was waiting on the platform at a Transport for Wales station and could see across to my parked bike.

I saw two staff members walk up to it, look it over and then open and look through the (empty) pannier bag on the side.

Now security’s important and I have no problem with this. There was two of them and they seemed to be following a process not just nosing around but it did make me think:

There are no signs or similar saying cycles may be searched (I’ll scout more later in case I missed something). I sometimes lock my bags - what would they have done in that situation?

Also I noted that it was TfW staff, not the police searching.

Any further info would be welcome, I couldn’t see anything online. Out of interest rather than anything else!

Thanks.

RailUK Forums

bluenoxid · 9 Apr 2024

There is a sign at Leeds station asking for bags/panniers to be left unlocked by the cycle racks.

I cannot recall if there is a clear point made if you do lock them.

tpfx89 · 9 Apr 2024

More likely than not part of a station security check, these are mandated at certain intervals depending on station category and current security level. Just a bit of due diligence to look into an open pannier if it's present. Worth noting that the regulator does conduct spot checks and "hoax" device planting to test the security arrangements of station operators so worth checking anywhere things could be left.

Bigfoot · 9 Apr 2024

There is a sign at my home station next to the bike racks saying panniers must be left unlocked for inspection.

The staff also have to perform a security check by walking the whole station every so many hours opening anything that could be used to hide a device and to check other things that should be locked still are.

Perfectly normal. If you watch a major station for a while there seems to be a constant cycle of searching and checking going on.

AllWork · 9 Apr 2024

Thanks everyone. That’s really interesting - there may well be a sign I missed but interesting to know and obviously great they’re keeping an eye out for everyone.

172007 · 9 Apr 2024

Surely by leaving a bag or object unattended in a public place you are giving implied consent for it to be searched and certainly a public place that are busy with people such as Publoc transport, concert venues etc.

miami · 9 Apr 2024

Are suitcases often opened and searched? The railway encourages and even mandates bags to be left at the end of carriages, often out of sight.

Malaxa · 9 Apr 2024

I'd extend this to station car parks - you never know what's inside a parked vehicle. I suggest it be mandated that all vehicles be left unlocked for inspection.

Islineclear3_1 · 9 Apr 2024

Malaxa said:
I'd extend this to station car parks - you never know what's inside a parked vehicle. I suggest it be mandated that all vehicles be left unlocked for inspection.

I'd extend this mandatory search to trains upon arrival at the station. You never know what's inside a train :

jon81uk · 9 Apr 2024

miami said:
Are suitcases often opened and searched? The railway encourages and even mandates bags to be left at the end of carriages, often out of sight.

They don't get classed as unattended baggage as the assumption is you are on the train and it is almost impossible to work out which are unattended.
But unattended bags at stations and other similar places have been removed or destroyed for 30+ years due to the IRA and then other terrorist threats.

higthomas · 9 Apr 2024

Malaxa said:
I'd extend this to station car parks - you never know what's inside a parked vehicle. I suggest it be mandated that all vehicles be left unlocked for inspection.

I know this is in jest, but it does seem silly to search through people's panniers when there is a much larger space for a bomb of whatever in a boot which no one would ever dream of searching through.
And in many stations, you can park a car right outside, or even inside.

Bletchleyite · 9 Apr 2024

higthomas said:
I know this is in jest, but it does seem silly to search through people's panniers when there is a much larger space for a bomb of whatever in a boot which no one would ever dream of searching through.
And in many stations, you can park a car right outside, or even inside.

While it's also for a more pleasant, less exhaust-filled environment, cars and taxis having been moved outside stations like Edinburgh Waverley from their previous inside arrangement is in part for this reason.

Howardh · 9 Apr 2024

The point about locked cars is valid, with the caveat that cars at many stations are generally parked some distance away from the building so would need an extremely large explosion. The thought occured if searching for explosives, rather than the human eye wouldn't sniffer dogs be more appropriate?

Bletchleyite · 9 Apr 2024

Howardh said:
The point about locked cars is valid, with the caveat that cars at many stations are generally parked some distance away from the building so would need an extremely large explosion. The thought occured if searching for explosives, rather than the human eye wouldn't sniffer dogs be more appropriate?

I don't doubt that BTP bimble round station car parks with sniffer dogs when they're not otherwise busy.

sheff1 · 9 Apr 2024

higthomas said:
I know this is in jest, but it does seem silly to search through people's panniers when there is a much larger space for a bomb of whatever in a boot which no one would ever dream of searching through.
And in many stations, you can park a car right outside, or even inside.

It is just another example of the widespread security theatre - just for show in most cases.
There have, of course, been many car bombings over the years. not so many bicycle bombings. ….theatre advocates will doubtless claim this is due to the pannier searches.

Bletchleyite said:
I don't doubt that BTP bimble round station car parks with sniffer dogs when they're not otherwise busy.

There will be no BTP anywhere near most station car parks, never mind sniffer dogs. I don’t actually remember seeing any BTP sniffer dogs anywhere.

Howardh · 9 Apr 2024

Bletchleyite said:
I don't doubt that BTP bimble round station car parks with sniffer dogs when they're not otherwise busy.

If there's an alert that requires bags to be searched, then I think that is serious enough for dogs to be employed!! If there's no alert, why search?? As alluded to, cars and bags on trains aren't routinely searched.

Bantamzen · 9 Apr 2024

sheff1 said:
It is just another example of the widespread security theatre - just for show in most cases.
There have, of course, been many car bombings over the years. not so many bicycle bombings. ….theatre advocates will doubtless claim this is due to the pannier searches.

There will be no BTP anywhere near most station car parks, never mind sniffer dogs. I don’t actually remember seeing any BTP sniffer dogs anywhere.

That's kind of the point of security searches, being visible and acting as a deterrent. And I actually saw a sniffer dog walking past The Mill pub in Manchester Piccadilly just a couple of weeks ago. So I'm sure they do also check car parks, unless the dog was thirsty!

Deafdoggie · 9 Apr 2024

It's another of those nonsense safety things the railway does. We will examine a bike and remove bins, but ignore cars or luggage on a train. If you were a bomber would you leave it on a bike at a station or put it in a case on a packed train and detonate at a busy station?
Equally they overlook that virtually all recent terrorist attacks have been suicide bombers anyway. So none of these measures solve that.
But it's this safety nonsense that gives us the Euston scrum and endless "see it say it sort it" announcements that ensure everyone ignores all announcements.
But it keeps a railway manager in an office happy.

Y Ddraig Coch · 9 Apr 2024

Deafdoggie said:
It's another of those nonsense safety things the railway does. We will examine a bike and remove bins, but ignore cars or luggage on a train. If you were a bomber would you leave it on a bike at a station or put it in a case on a packed train and detonate at a busy station?
Equally they overlook that virtually all recent terrorist attacks have been suicide bombers anyway. So none of these measures solve that.
But it's this safety nonsense that gives us the Euston scrum and endless "see it say it sort it" announcements that ensure everyone ignores all announcements.
But it keeps a railway manager in an office happy.

Is it nonsense though? What possible harm can being vigilant do, staff having the odd wander around the station premises and checking for anything out of place or unusual when they have some spare time. It isn't affecting or disrupting any passengers.

jon81uk · 9 Apr 2024

Malaxa said:
I'd extend this to station car parks - you never know what's inside a parked vehicle. I suggest it be mandated that all vehicles be left unlocked for inspection.

This is why most large mainline stations have bollards around them and only drop off areas close to the station, not car parks. I would expect if someone did park up in a taxi rank or similar space right next to a mainline station it would have the police attend. Of course the other reason for the bollards is to stop people driving into the pedestrians directly such as happened on London Bridge.

al78 · 9 Apr 2024

Y Ddraig Coch said:
Is it nonsense though? What possible harm can being vigilant do, staff having the odd wander around the station premises and checking for anything out of place or unusual when they have some spare time. It isn't affecting or disrupting any passengers.

If bicycle panniers have to be unlocked so the insides are accessible to anyone in authority deciding they are a security threat, they are also accessible to opportunist thieves.

jon81uk · 9 Apr 2024

al78 said:
If bicycle panniers have to be unlocked so the insides are accessible to anyone in authority deciding they are a security threat, they are also accessible to opportunist thieves.

I think it would be very sensible advice not to store anything valuable in unattended soft sided bicycle panniers anyway, locked or not (motorbike would be different as generally they are hard side locked boxes more like car boots).

skyhigh · 9 Apr 2024

Deafdoggie said:
It's another of those nonsense safety things the railway does. We will examine a bike and remove bins, but ignore cars or luggage on a train. If you were a bomber would you leave it on a bike at a station or put it in a case on a packed train and detonate at a busy station?

This shows a lack of knowledge of the subject, I am afraid. Studies based on previous attacks have shown that there is good reason for this kind of thing - it is not 'nonsense'. For hopefully obvious reasons I am not going to detail why on a public forum, but it is based on something more concrete than an opinion.

al78 said:
If bicycle panniers have to be unlocked so the insides are accessible to anyone in authority deciding they are a security threat, they are also accessible to opportunist thieves.

Leaving anything valuable in a pannier with a flimsy lock is a bad idea anyway.

sprunt · 9 Apr 2024

tpfx89 said:
Worth noting that the regulator does conduct spot checks and "hoax" device planting to test the security arrangements of station operators so worth checking anywhere things could be left.

They presumably wouldn't be planting hoax devices on people's bikes though?

CarrotPie · 9 Apr 2024

sprunt said:
They presumably wouldn't be planting hoax devices on people's bikes though?

Why not? (obviously their own, not random members of the publics')

Deafdoggie · 9 Apr 2024

jon81uk said:
This is why most large mainline stations have bollards around them and only drop off areas close to the station, not car parks. I would expect if someone did park up in a taxi rank or similar space right next to a mainline station it would have the police attend. Of course the other reason for the bollards is to stop people driving into the pedestrians directly such as happened on London Bridge.

I'd say a lot of stations have car parks close enough to be an issue. Crewe, Stoke & Stafford all have car parks adjacent to platforms for example. With Alsager, Stone and Kidsgrove too, that's quite some havoc on the West Coast mainline!

skyhigh said:
This shows a lack of knowledge of the subject, I am afraid. Studies based on previous attacks have shown that there is good reason for this kind of thing - it is not 'nonsense'. For hopefully obvious reasons I am not going to detail why on a public forum, but it is based on something more concrete than an opinion.

So how many terror attacks have been caused by a pannier bomb, and how many have been thwarted by checking them?

sheff1 · 9 Apr 2024

Y Ddraig Coch said:
Is it nonsense though? What possible harm can being vigilant do, staff having the odd wander around the station premises and checking for anything out of place or unusual when they have some spare time. It isn't affecting or disrupting any passengers.

Nothing at all wrong in looking round the station, but bicycles parked at bike racks are neither out of place nor unusual. If do staff have time to walk round checking things which are out of place they might like to remove out of date notices.

Horizon22 · 9 Apr 2024

jon81uk said:
They don't get classed as unattended baggage as the assumption is you are on the train and it is almost impossible to work out which are unattended.
But unattended bags at stations and other similar places have been removed or destroyed for 30+ years due to the IRA and then other terrorist threats.

They might but only if it seems like it might be a suspicious item. Generally as you say it is not classified as that, but under certain circumstances it might be. Staff have a security procedure to follow which will allow them to classify it and, if required, escalate the issue.

Howardh said:
If there's an alert that requires bags to be searched, then I think that is serious enough for dogs to be employed!! If there's no alert, why search?? As alluded to, cars and bags on trains aren't routinely searched.

Cars might be identified as an issue if something looks out of place; is it parked weirdly or outside of a bay? Is it missing permits? Does it seem to be laden and suspension is sagging?

jon81uk said:
This is why most large mainline stations have bollards around them and only drop off areas close to the station, not car parks. I would expect if someone did park up in a taxi rank or similar space right next to a mainline station it would have the police attend. Of course the other reason for the bollards is to stop people driving into the pedestrians directly such as happened on London Bridge.

Not just stations of course; plenty of large buildings / infrastructure / pedestrinaised area have anti-ram bollards in position. There's so embedded within the infrastructure of many urban areas, most people probably don't even clock them any more.

sheff1 said:
Nothing at all wrong in looking round the station, but bicycles parked at bike racks are neither out of place nor unusual. If do staff have time to walk round checking things which are out of place they might like to remove out of date notices.

A thorough security sweep will be mandated every X hours (which may vary even inside the station at larger one) dependent on the category of the station by the DfT. This includes around areas that do not appear "unusual".

CarrotPie · 9 Apr 2024

Horizon22 said:
Cars might be identified as an issue if something looks out of place; is it parked weirdly or outside of a bay? Is it missing permits? Does it seem to be laden and suspension is sagging?

And? If they are identified as an issue, does the BTP immediately spawn in with sniffer dogs?

skyhigh said:
This shows a lack of knowledge of the subject, I am afraid. Studies based on previous attacks have shown that there is good reason for this kind of thing - it is not 'nonsense'. For hopefully obvious reasons I am not going to detail why on a public forum, but it is based on something more concrete than an opinion.

This seems to be missing the point, I am afraid. Good reason for what sort of thing, anyway? Nobody is denying routine checks of bins and the like (and only because I frankly can't be bothered to fight the backlash), but what people are questioning is the unannounced searching of bike bags, which seems, to me, to be taking the mick. What next? "Sir, is that a bomb in your saddle bag?"

sheff1 said:
Nothing at all wrong in looking round the station, but bicycles parked at bike racks are neither out of place nor unusual. If do staff have time to walk round checking things which are out of place they might like to remove out of date notices.

But sadly up-to-date notices don't prevent terror attacks, whereas out of date ones do. I know this because they're everywhere. Someone from TfL might even argue out-of-date notices are better, becaue they confuse the terrorists! :lol:

Llanigraham · 9 Apr 2024

sheff1 said:
It is just another example of the widespread security theatre - just for show in most cases.
There have, of course, been many car bombings over the years. not so many bicycle bombings. ….theatre advocates will doubtless claim this is due to the pannier searches.

There will be no BTP anywhere near most station car parks, never mind sniffer dogs. I don’t actually remember seeing any BTP sniffer dogs anywhere.

And yet I read a news article from somewhere in the country this week that a BTP sniffer dog found bags of drugs in a bag on a train, so they are around.

Cycle Bag Searching at Stations

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