WCRC loses judicial review in High Court

Killingworth · 9 Apr 2024

There is a good feature on LSL's operations in May's edition of Rail Today although it can't cover everything.

They started relatively recently and are building a fleet of well restored and mostly already compliant rolling stock.

West Coast have much deeper roots and have accumulated a lot of Mk 1 non compliant carriages. The 2 rakes used for the Jacobite are the ones that have sparked this off but it's the knock on effect on all the others that gives them the financial killer blow. Preventing their use very severely lmits the number of special services that will be able to run anywhere in the UK, steam hauled or diesel.

The high figures they have quoted to achieve compliance needs to be set aside all the coaches they'd need to work on.

RailUK Forums

Falcon1200 · 9 Apr 2024

Wilts Wanderer said:
At worst it is a right-side failure - any specific signalling provisions will be more than than the minimum required (although in this specific case - a very simple RETB-controlled branch line - I doubt there are any?)

I agree, but just think it is not good practice to use the path requested, designated and described as a passenger service as something other, when it would have been simple to address the issue.

Essan · 9 Apr 2024

Piece in the Press & Journal about the first running by LSL.

LSL, which operates under the same safety regulations as WCR, have progressively upgraded their trains during annual refurbishments.

Its chief engineer says it is about £23,000 to upgrade a carriage to compliance.

Jonathan Rawlinson said: “Over the years when we have refurbished our carriages we have made sure they are compliant.

“We put in an application to run our trains on the line today and tomorrow April 9. We wanted to see what the demand would be like.

“Without any advertising, we have a healthy number on the train, and we will likely have a meeting on Wednesday to decide how to take things forward.”

Trainspotter Francis Bourgeois joins first passengers as Class 37 makes Harry Potter line debut

The locomotive is running the route while the famous Jacobite steam train is out of action.

www.pressandjournal.co.uk

ainsworth74 · 9 Apr 2024

Killingworth said:
West Coast have much deeper roots and have accumulated a lot of Mk 1 non compliant carriages. The 2 rakes used for the Jacobite are the ones that have sparked this off but it's the knock on effect on all the others that gives them the financial killer blow. Preventing their use very severely lmits the number of special services that will be able to run anywhere in the UK, steam hauled or diesel.

Shame that they've not taken the opportunity available over 20+ years to progressively upgrade them rather than needing to do them all at once. Plus if they had had a plan in place and had messed around so much fighting the inevitable (to the point that the competition is now muscling in on their lucrative patch, see post above mine) I have very little doubt that the ORR would have agreed an exemption that gave them enough time to implement the changes over several seasons with the work being done in the off-season. No risk of money being lost when the work can be done at a time when most of their fleet is out of action anyway.

However they didn't take that opportunity and have spent their time and money fighting the inevitable to the point that I really do wonder if they'd be able to get an exemption anyway due the broken trust with the regulator.

Meerkat · 9 Apr 2024

Why would CDL fiTrent cost so much - don’t WCRC have an engineering operation in place that could do the work, especially as it’s not got to be done in a hurry (if their stock of Mk1s is ever going to be used then start on those and drop them into the Jacobite a few at a time)

Killingworth · 9 Apr 2024

Meerkat said:
Why would CDL fiTrent cost so much - don’t WCRC have an engineering operation in place that could do the work, especially as it’s not got to be done in a hurry (if their stock of Mk1s is ever going to be used then start on those and drop them into the Jacobite a few at a time)

We need to know how many Mk 1 coaches need attention before calculating that. There are physical constraints as well as financial ones.

Many older carriages are probably in need of a lot more work than CDL to justify retention.

1 coach relatively easy. 10 not too hard over a year. But have they nearer 100? Thats a totally different scenario. At the suggested cost for renovation as well as CDL a lot are going for scrap and that means there are going to be fewer rail tours and those that remain will cost more.

Be careful what we wish for.

Nym · 9 Apr 2024

Also, why should one trust the price given by WCRCs biggest competitor on how much something costs to do…?

Dai Corner · 9 Apr 2024

Nym said:
Also, why should one trust the price given by WCRCs biggest competitor on how much something costs to do…?

Because it's similar to that given in the ORR document attached to post 1015 and used in court. The ORR approached several operators and suppliers to arrive at the figures.

Nym · 9 Apr 2024

And that system would pass an AsBo in accordance with CSM-RA today, now…?
I’ll be pressing X for doubt…

Requirements move on. And just because their CDL cost that much when they got it approved, which is not a believable number anyway, doesn’t mean a suitable system for installation and approval today would.

We seem to have some pretty big armchair experts on how much mods cost to design, approve, purchase and fit to old equipment.

The design for Mk.3s won’t fit. The design that LSL did was (hopefully) signed off years ago now and requirements move on.

LSL figures will be questionable. Those who know will know why.

Dai Corner · 9 Apr 2024

Nym said:
And that system would pass an AsBo in accordance with CSM-RA today, now…?
I’ll be pressing X for doubt…

Requirements move on. And just because their CDL cost that much when they got it approved, which is not a believable number anyway, doesn’t mean a suitable system for installation and approval today would.

Could you tell us what's changed since previous stock was fitted with CDL and why you think the designs are no longer compliant please? Also how much you think a compliant fitment would cost now, with a breakdown of materials and labour.

Nym · 9 Apr 2024

CSM-RA.

Also no, because my pricing would be commercially sensitive data.

Killingworth · 9 Apr 2024

Dai Corner said:
Because it's similar to that given in the ORR document attached to post 1015 and used in court. The ORR approached several operators and suppliers to arrive at the figures.

The cost depends on many factors, one of which must include the state of the coach.

CDL in isolation is largely academic as 60 year old coaches will all have a variety of corrosion and dilapidation issues to resolve in addition. LSL start from a different place and turn out some superb vehicles added one by one, presumably cherry picking the best stock that becomes available.

WC probably have most of the Mk 1 stock that's still in runnable mainline condition. You can't restore 15-20 coaches in 6 months, certainly not 100. You wouldn't start on even 1 or 2 without an agreed plan for the rest. That's where some calm and reasoned negotiation is required - in private.

3RDGEN · 9 Apr 2024

Killingworth said:
We need to know how many Mk 1 coaches need attention before calculating that. There are physical constraints as well as financial ones.

Many older carriages are probably in need of a lot more work than CDL to justify retention.

1 coach relatively easy. 10 not too hard over a year. But have they nearer 100? Thats a totally different scenario. At the suggested cost for renovation as well as CDL a lot are going for scrap and that means there are going to be fewer rail tours and those that remain will cost more.

Be careful what we wish for.

One of the last exemptions issued last July listed 125 vehicles and around half appear to be MkI,

"https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/defaul...gulation-5-exemption-certificate-for-wcrc.pdf"

That would be approx £56,000 per vehicle to give the £7 million WCTC quoted, in the 2021 document attached to post #1015 Arlington Fleet Services quoted £50,000 per vehicle for "design from scratch". WCTC didn't help themselves by not providing any justification to their cost estimate but for the full 125 vehicles it's probably not that far out if you add in loss of earnings costs whilst the modification program is underway, although I doubt they would ever fit them all.

43096 · 9 Apr 2024

Nym said:
CSM-RA.

Also no, because my pricing would be commercially sensitive data.

In line with forum policy, can you explain that acronym.

Dai Corner · 9 Apr 2024

Nym said:
CSM-RA.

Also no, because my pricing would be commercially sensitive data.

I'm not a rolling stock engineer, but it appears that the ORR guidance note on the Common Safety Method for Risk Evaluation and Assesment on their website is dated September 2018, which predates at least some of the Mk1 CDL installations. I appreciate that you can't give commercially sensitive information but a description of what has changed in layman's terms would help us understand why the cost has risen apparently risen significantly. Are the owners currently fitting CDL obliged to meet the current standards?

It seems to be another own goal for WCRC if they could have done the work a few years ago to lower standards and more cheaply.

Killingworth · 9 Apr 2024

3RDGEN said:
One of the last exemptions issued last July listed 125 vehicles and around half appear to be MkI,

"https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/defaul...gulation-5-exemption-certificate-for-wcrc.pdf"

That would be approx £56,000 per vehicle to give the £7 million WCTC quoted, in the 2021 document attached to post #1015 Arlington Fleet Services quoted £50,000 per vehicle for "design from scratch". WCTC didn't help themselves by not providing any justification to their cost estimate but for the full 125 vehicles it's probably not that far out if you add in loss of earnings costs whilst the modification program is underway, although I doubt they would ever fit them all.

Thanks for that, it's the sort of reasoning my financial brain likes to see and explains a lot.

renegademaster · 9 Apr 2024

Could WCRC pay a person from or contacted by ORR to be a full time supervisor for their services. Seems to be the position of some on here its impossible for any movement forward because ORR shouldn't trust them after previous failures

Wolfie · 9 Apr 2024

Nym said:
And that system would pass an AsBo in accordance with CSM-RA today, now…?
I’ll be pressing X for doubt…

Requirements move on. And just because their CDL cost that much when they got it approved, which is not a believable number anyway, doesn’t mean a suitable system for installation and approval today would.

We seem to have some pretty big armchair experts on how much mods cost to design, approve, purchase and fit to old equipment.

The design for Mk.3s won’t fit. The design that LSL did was (hopefully) signed off years ago now and requirements move on.

LSL figures will be questionable. Those who know will know why.

In which case more fools WCRC for not making a similar installation years ago. Frankly if constantly kicking the can down the road ultimately bites Mr Smith in the rump it serves him right.

Killingworth · 9 Apr 2024

Wolfie said:
In which case more fools WCRC for not making a similar installation years ago. Frankly if constantly kicking the can down the road ultimately bites Mr Smith in the rump it serves him right.

If it leads to his principal competitor enjoying a virtual monopoly Mr Smith may have a bitten rump but those of us who enjoy riding in heritage trains (some for traction, some for routes, some for the social side, some for the destination) will lose out + all those who line the stations and lineside for picture opportunities.

An acceptable agreement that will be fully adhered to must be the desired outcome. But make no mistake, any transgression by WCRC will really be curtains. That may not be the case for any other heritage operators, but they must be fearful that any other errors by any of them will rebound on them all.

WAB · 9 Apr 2024

Killingworth said:
1 coach relatively easy. 10 not too hard over a year. But have they nearer 100? Thats a totally different scenario. At the suggested cost for renovation as well as CDL a lot are going for scrap and that means there are going to be fewer rail tours and those that remain will cost more.

Yes, I don't get this assumption that all 100 need to be upgraded. Just enough to reinstate the Jacobite and get the revenue from that, get the cash flow going, then work on an appropriate number of carriages for charter work.

12LDA28C · 9 Apr 2024

renegademaster said:
Could WCRC pay a person from or contacted by ORR to be a full time supervisor for their services. Seems to be the position of some on here its impossible for any movement forward because ORR shouldn't trust them after previous failures

No, most on here are saying that any movement forward would be dependent on WCRC presenting their plan to fit CDL to their stock within an agreed timescale to the ORR, as other operators have done, assuming that is still an option available to them.

renegademaster · 9 Apr 2024

12LDA28C said:
No, most on here are saying that any movement forward would be dependent on WCRC presenting their plan to fit CDL to their stock within an agreed timescale to the ORR, as other operators have done, assuming that is still an option available to them.

Yeah but they've been caught out not having the mitigations in the meantime followed properly, isn't that one of the stumbling blocks too(if not the main one)?

Wolfie · 9 Apr 2024

12LDA28C said:
No, most on here are saying that any movement forward would be dependent on WCRC presenting their plan to fit CDL to their stock within an agreed timescale to the ORR, as other operators have done, assuming that is still an option available to them.

With verifiable milestones and a formal monitoring methodology.

renegademaster · 9 Apr 2024

12LDA28C said:
assuming that is still an option available to them.

Which is my point. Seems to be the opinion of many they shouldn't be given any more chances at all, after previous failures, and if that is true, would having more supervision (at their expensive) be a solution.

12LDA28C · 9 Apr 2024

renegademaster said:
Which is my point. Seems to be the opinion of many they shouldn't be given any more chances at all, after previous failures, and if that is true, would having more supervision (at their expensive) be a solution.

In a word - no. Come up with a plan to fit CDL. That's the only acceptable course of action, 'more supervision' and still no plan to fit CDL is not an option. It just remains to be seen whether the ORR will give WCRC another chance, even with a plan in place.

renegademaster · 9 Apr 2024

12LDA28C said:
In a word - no. Come up with a plan to fit CDL. That's the only acceptable course of action, 'more supervision' and still no plan to fit CDL is not an option. It just remains to be seen whether the ORR will give WCRC another chance, even with a plan in place.

If it comes to a situation where they come up with plan to CDL, ORR says no we've had enough of you, would a way round that be more supervision + CDL , or is the mark 1s heading to the scrapheap the most likely end state no matter what?

68000 · 9 Apr 2024

The entitlement from WCRC is unreal in this saga

Mountain Man · 9 Apr 2024

skyhigh said:
If the legislation is changed under pressure from WCRC to mean they don't need to fit CDL, you can bet that LSL and anyone else who has paid to actually do the work will be lodging court claims to get their money back.

Why would the legislation be changed?

If WCRC don't want to run a steam service someone else will. As WCRC keep saying, it's a lucrative market and supporting the economy is critical. So let another operator run instead. That should be the priority now, finding an alternative operator

Killingworth · 9 Apr 2024

Mountain Man said:
Why would the legislation be changed?

If WCRC don't want to run a steam service someone else will. As WCRC keep saying, it's a lucrative market and supporting the economy is critical. So let another operator run instead. That should be the priority now, finding an alternative operator

It isn't about running a steam service. It's about using any of the 125 coaches currently exempted.

That's a very large proportion of the national coaching stock that's available for special services with heritage appeal, many of which are diesel hauled.

There are a lot of special services already scheduled in 2024 and WCRC are, or were, booked to provide the rolling stock. There's a lot more at stake than the high profile Jacobite.

12C · 9 Apr 2024

Mountain Man said:
Why would the legislation be changed?

If WCRC don't want to run a steam service someone else will. As WCRC keep saying, it's a lucrative market and supporting the economy is critical. So let another operator run instead. That should be the priority now, finding an alternative operator

Which other operator realistically could run a regular steam service? There is only really LSL, and despite their efforts this week their stock is well booked with upcoming charter work, especially the Saphos/Steam Dreams Mk1 set. They could carry on with the class 37/DBSO set but this may not have the same appeal as steam long term.

WCRC loses judicial review in High Court

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