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Cycle Bag Searching at Stations

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Horizon22

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And? If they are identified as an issue, does the BTP immediately spawn in with sniffer dogs?

Well I wouldn't say "immediately" but it would probably be passed onto a supervisor / manager for a 2nd opinion, people advised to stand away (exclusion zone) and the BTP and/or local Home Office force would be down pretty sharpish, yes.

Such events are incredibly rare.
 
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Llanigraham

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If there's an alert that requires bags to be searched, then I think that is serious enough for dogs to be employed!! If there's no alert, why search?? As alluded to, cars and bags on trains aren't routinely searched.

Becasue currently the country is in an Alert status.
There was a notice about the level at the Ambulance Station I work out of.
 

mike57

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Is it nonsense though? What possible harm can being vigilant do, staff having the odd wander around the station premises and checking for anything out of place or unusual when they have some spare time. It isn't affecting or disrupting any passengers.
I would go further, every little bit of vigilance makes it more difficult for those who are planning an act of terrorism. Each small check or inspection on its own may not seem to matter but add them all up and it will make a difference. It wont stop them, but everything you do to disrupt and discourage is a win.

Whilst on holiday in France last year there were regular bag searchs at the entry to various shopping centres and tourist attractions, together with armed patrols around a lot of the major stations same thing applies, it wont stop attacks but makes it more difficult.
 

CarrotPie

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I would go further, every little bit of vigilance makes it more difficult for those who are planning an act of terrorism. Each small check or inspection on its own may not seem to matter but add them all up and it will make a difference. It won't stop them, but everything you do to disrupt and discourage is a win.

Whilst on holiday in France last year there were regular bag searches at the entry to various shopping centres and tourist attractions, together with armed patrols around a lot of the major stations same thing applies, it won't stop attacks but makes it more difficult.
It may "make attacks more difficult", but it also costs a lot and, funnily enough, most people would prefer not to have armed police everywhere, especially if it doesn't even prevent terrorist attacks!
 
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Bantamzen

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So how many terror attacks have been caused by a pannier bomb, and how many have been thwarted by checking them?
Probably none, but that's not the point. These are bags that could be on the station for much of the day, at least unlike bags just left on platforms they aren't taken by the armed services and subject to a controlled explosion.
 

CarrotPie

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Probably none, but that's not the point.
Why not? There's no point checking something for "suspicious items" just to appease the HSE/the DfT/voters/Big Brother (delete as appropriate), not least if something "of use" to a "malicious actor" has never been found in a bag attached to a bike, never will and thus searching them will do nothing to thwart an attack! It's purely safety for safety's sake.
 

Horizon22

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Why not? There's no point checking something for "suspicious items" just to appease the HSE/the DfT/voters/Big Brother (delete as appropriate), not least if something "of use" to a "malicious actor" has never been found in a bag attached to a bike, never will and thus searching them will do nothing to thwart an attack! It's purely safety for safety's sake.

How could you possibly know that? Proactively searching all areas of the station is good thorough security procedure and it is preventative by having proactive patrols and makes people think again as is shown by the lack of incidents on stations. Taking security seriously makes perfect sense.

If it takes an extra minute or two for a planned security check but costs nothing, then it's a win-win for all. What's the issue? It's not "Big Brother"!
 

43066

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We will examine a bike and remove bins, but ignore cars or luggage on a train. If you were a bomber would you leave it on a bike at a station or put it in a case on a packed train and detonate at a busy station?

So what’s your suggested alternative? Should we ban luggage on all trains?! Or introduce airport style luggage scanners? I doubt anyone would seriously support that - it’s a question of striking a balance.

It is just another example of the widespread security theatre - just for show in most cases.
There have, of course, been many car bombings over the years. not so many bicycle bombings. ….theatre advocates will doubtless claim this is due to the pannier searches.

Do we take it you’re an expert on the subject of security, in order to make such sweeping pronouncements? Would you rather we didn’t bother with security searches at all?

Both of the above posts strike me as badly informed people looking for reasons to complain.

not least if something "of use" to a "malicious actor" has never been found in a bag attached to a bike

Wrong. A quick google search reveals a couple of IRA bombs that were planted in bags on bicycles in the early 90s, so it’s not without precedent in the UK. There have been numerous other more recent examples abroad.

Hence the searches of cycle panniers make good sense.
 
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ComUtoR

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If there was a list of all the places that were not checked on a regular basis....


Has anything ever been found in a Robin Reliant, on the first Tuesday after a full moon ?

Has anything been found in the accessible toilets ?

Checks are preventative measures and act as a deterrent. Knowing they exist is just a small step.
 

Y Ddraig Coch

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It may "make attacks more difficult", but it also costs a lot and, funnily enough, most people would prefer not to have armed police everywhere, especially if it doesn't even prevent terrorist attacks!
It doesn't cost anything, these people are working anyway just carrying out the checks as part of their daily routine.
 

CarrotPie

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It doesn't cost anything, these people are working anyway just carrying out the checks as part of their daily routine.
Armed bag searches ought to, othwerise they're not being done properly!
Proactively searching all areas of the station is good thorough security procedure and it is preventative by having proactive patrols and makes people think again, as is shown by the lack of incidents on stations.
Causation or correlation? I don't have any evidence either way (and I'd love to see some), but my gut says it's probably more the latter.
A quick google search reveals a couple of IRA bombs that were planted in bags on bicycles in the early 90s, so it’s not without precedent in the UK. There have been numerous other more recent examples abroad.
Fair point and I bow to your supremacy.
If it takes an extra minute or two for a planned security check but costs nothing, then it's a win-win for all.
Agreed. If, however, it requires susbtantial investment in staff and training, not to mention signage and the like, then it is worth it? Questions about one's right to not have everything of one's searched while using a public service abound, but sadly I'm not qualified to answer those.
 

Horizon22

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Armed bag searches ought to, othwerise they're not being done properly!

Causation or correlation? I don't have any evidence either way (and I'd love to see some), but my gut says it's probably more the latter.

Who is suggesting armed bag searches? Why would searches without them "not been done properly"? Nobody is saying going up to people wearing backpacks, more unattended items around the situation.

With such a thing you won't get evidence, because it's preventative and it's impossible to know really because we don't have a controlled situation to compare it to (i.e checks not being done). But there were lots of IRA incidents in the 90s at stations and whilst that is no longer the primary threat, I find it very hard to believe that stations and trains wouldn't be targets for terrorist attacks given the mobile nature of the railway and the large numbers of people they attract.

Agreed. If, however, it requires susbtantial investment in staff and training, not to mention signage and the like, then it is worth it? Questions about one's right to not have everything of one's searched while using a public service abound, but sadly I'm not qualified to answer those.

It doesn't.
 

stuartl

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And yet I read a news article from somewhere in the country this week that a BTP sniffer dog found bags of drugs in a bag on a train, so they are around.
I have seen drug sniffer dogs used a few times at Sheffield station.
 

Deepgreen

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Very simply (in my opinion), if one views cycle panniers as unattended bags, then searches are completely valid. I imagine no-one leaves anything valuable in them, so theft is a very low risk. I think this thread has escalated from a simple question to one step away from 'that's how the Nazis came to power' stuff.
 

northwichcat

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To be fair we can't evacuate stations and delay trains because a backpack has been left on a platform, and then ignore parked bikes with panniers.
 

noddingdonkey

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I'm sure that signage I've seen in the past (I'm probably talking 20 years ago) at Leeds was for panniers to be removed from parked bikes, so presumably the risk has been judged to be less now.
 

al78

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So what’s your suggested alternative? Should we ban luggage on all trains?! Or introduce airport style luggage scanners? I doubt anyone would seriously support that - it’s a question of striking a balance.
Speaking purely logically, it makes no sense to only target bicycle panniers and ignore anything else which could easily house a bomb. If a terrorist wanted to use a bicycle to house a bomb they would be better packing the frame with explosives and using it as a pipe bomb. I suspect the reason this is being done is 1) Something must be done and this is something (i.e. an emotional reaction), and 2) Cyclists are a minority and any objections from them can be ignored. I wonder what the motoring lobby would say if it were suggested cars should be searched if their drivers are intending to park near what could be classified as potentially high risk terrorist targets.
 

Carntyne

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Speaking purely logically, it makes no sense to only target bicycle panniers and ignore anything else which could easily house a bomb. If a terrorist wanted to use a bicycle to house a bomb they would be better packing the frame with explosives and using it as a pipe bomb. I suspect the reason this is being done is 1) Something must be done and this is something (i.e. an emotional reaction), and 2) Cyclists are a minority and any objections from them can be ignored. I wonder what the motoring lobby would say if it were suggested cars should be searched if their drivers are intending to park near what could be classified as potentially high risk terrorist targets.
Where are cars still being parked inside major stations?

It doesn't really matter if people like it or not, it's still going to go ahead. It is not just bicycles being searched - it is everything within the railway station that could potentially hide something.
 

6Gman

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It is just another example of the widespread security theatre - just for show in most cases.
There have, of course, been many car bombings over the years. not so many bicycle bombings. ….theatre advocates will doubtless claim this is due to the pannier searches.


There will be no BTP anywhere near most station car parks, never mind sniffer dogs. I don’t actually remember seeing any BTP sniffer dogs anywhere.
They were at Crewe a couple of weeks ago.

And very effective (drugs rather than explosives I hope, since in the 10 minutes I was there they pulled over three people!).

Not the first time I've seen them there either.

Personally I'd be happy to see another 50 deployed.
 

sheff1

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Proactively searching all areas of the station is good thorough security procedure and it is preventative by having proactive patrols and makes people think again as is shown by the lack of incidents on stations. Taking security seriously makes perfect sense.
So why aren't these proactive searches taking place across the board ?
 

6Gman

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Speaking purely logically, it makes no sense to only target bicycle panniers and ignore anything else which could easily house a bomb. If a terrorist wanted to use a bicycle to house a bomb they would be better packing the frame with explosives and using it as a pipe bomb. I suspect the reason this is being done is 1) Something must be done and this is something (i.e. an emotional reaction), and 2) Cyclists are a minority and any objections from them can be ignored. I wonder what the motoring lobby would say if it were suggested cars should be searched if their drivers are intending to park near what could be classified as potentially high risk terrorist targets.
I recall some years ago visiting a "potentially high risk terrorist target". The underside of my car was checked by mirror and a spaniel had a good sniff around, including interior and boot (doors of which had to be opened). And this was despite the fact that I was an identified attendee of an event so they knew who I was and why I was there.

A few days later, and in the same part of the country, an IRA bomb killed and maimed.
 

farleigh

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So what is the procedure when they come across a locked pannier?

Do they open it with bot croppers?
 

DynamicSpirit

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I think it would be very sensible advice not to store anything valuable in unattended soft sided bicycle panniers anyway, locked or not (motorbike would be different as generally they are hard side locked boxes more like car boots).

Yeah. I'm actually somewhat surprised that anyone even leaves the panniers themselves on the bike. I wouldn't dream of leaving anything that's easily detachable on my bike when it's left in a public place.
 

Deafdoggie

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Where are cars still being parked inside major stations?
Crewe, Stoke & Stafford all have car parks adjacent to platforms (1, 2 & 1 respectively) there are loads of other examples They're certainly close enough to be effected if a bomb was in a car.
 

43066

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Has anything ever been found in a Robin Reliant, on the first Tuesday after a full moon ?

A dodgy looking blow up doll?

Crewe, Stoke & Stafford all have car parks adjacent to platforms (1, 2 & 1 respectively) there are loads of other examples They're certainly close enough to be effected if a bomb was in a car.

That might be an argument for changing the car parking arrangements. I fail to see how it’s an argument against checking cycle panniers.
 
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