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Cycle Bag Searching at Stations

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CaptainHaddock

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What a strange thread! What do the security services expect to find in a cycle pannier - an explosive puncture repair kit or maybe a pair of sharpened cycle clips? I don't use panniers but if I did and found some jobsworth rifling through my private possessions I'd be extremely put out.

Horizon22 said:
Substantial: https://www.protectuk.police.uk/threat-levels
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Interestingly the terror threat has never actually been at either of the two lowest levels, it’s always been “severe” or substantial”. Given that there hasn’t been a terrorist attack on the rail network for nearly twenty years, it does seem pretty clear that the current threat level is much lower than the security servioces would have you believe!
 
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uglymonkey

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I'm sure ( although I can't find the reference) at least one incidence of a bike frame ( the hollow tubes) being packed out completely with explosives , the bike left somewhere public and detonated.
 
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Bantamzen

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al78 said:
Speaking purely logically, it makes no sense to only target bicycle panniers and ignore anything else which could easily house a bomb. If a terrorist wanted to use a bicycle to house a bomb they would be better packing the frame with explosives and using it as a pipe bomb. I suspect the reason this is being done is 1) Something must be done and this is something (i.e. an emotional reaction), and 2) Cyclists are a minority and any objections from them can be ignored. I wonder what the motoring lobby would say if it were suggested cars should be searched if their drivers are intending to park near what could be classified as potentially high risk terrorist targets.
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I'm pretty certain this isn't a thing aimed just at cyclists, as I mentioned upthread a canine officer and sniffer dog were patrolling the pub above the concourse at Manchester Piccadilly. But who is to say that other areas aren't being checked, I'll wager that any search using sniffer dogs will include car parks, cycle racks, toilets, luggage storage etc etc.

And its really worth remembering that security alert levels have risen in recent months thanks in no small part to increasing tensions around the world. Indeed in the last couple of months I've seen a number of armed Police around Leeds, including the station. If this additional security means that a few bike bags may get checked, is it really such a big deal in the great scheme of things?
 
43066

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al78 said:
Speaking purely logically, it makes no sense to only target bicycle panniers and ignore anything else which could easily house a bomb.
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Who has suggested they are ignoring anything else that could easily house a bomb?

CaptainHaddock said:
Given that there hasn’t been a terrorist attack on the rail network for nearly twenty years, it does seem pretty clear that the current threat level is much lower than the security servioces would have you believe!
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The Parsons Green District line bomb in 2017 didn’t happen, then?

I’m very glad decisions around security measures aren’t being taken by certain contributors to this thread!
 
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Malaxa

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43066 said:
Who has suggested they are ignoring anything else that could easily house a bomb?



The Parsons Green District line bomb in 2017 didn’t happen, then?

I’m very glad decisions around security measures aren’t being taken by certain contributors to this thread!
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A compulsory bag search at every barrier to every TfL station would certainly put a stop to that kind of thing.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Malaxa said:
A compulsory bag search at every barrier to every TfL station would certainly put a stop to that kind of thing.
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I refer you to the bottom line you quoted, specifically:

I’m very glad decisions around security measures aren’t being taken by certain contributors to this thread!
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Also worth noting that that creates a mass of people in a queue who are vulnerable to attack themselves. That's one reason (another being cost) why concert venues just ban bags rather than having airport style searches. Where there are left luggage facilities these are distributed so there's not one big queue.
 
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Wow, this thread does show some crazy opinions about security, as if this is some targeted attack on cyclists and the motorist gets away scot free to bomb anywhere they like!

For one thing, it isn't just bombs. And staff will look for suspicious activity, such as a car or van parked somewhere it shouldn't be, or for a long time in a short stay area (how long to load or unload that lorry - and did it even do either?). That can be done using CCTV also, as well as the eyes and ears of passengers who spotted something odd (you know, why they drill the 61016 number into all of our brains). Security works better, including deterring criminals, if everyone plays a part.

But as I said, not all crime is people bombing things. With things like county lines, people often leave drugs or money hidden for others to collect and on a bike would be perfect. Hardly looks sus if you're retrieving something from a bag on a bike.

Knives, including zombie knives and machetes have been found hidden behind or inside salt bins or behind TVMs.

It would seem rather silly not to do random checks, and if isn't as if staff are likely to be stealing things (although obviously other people could) from them.

Perhaps if they did find a phone or something expensive left by accident, they might take it for safe keeping so an opportunist thief didn't find it. Replace with a note suggesting the owner finds a member of staff later or something. Another benefit.
 
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miami

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Deafdoggie said:
I'd say a lot of stations have car parks close enough to be an issue. Crewe, Stoke & Stafford all have car parks adjacent to platforms for example. With Alsager, Stone and Kidsgrove too, that's quite some havoc on the West Coast mainline!
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Anything small enough to go in a bike pannier can caused far more damage by someone putting it on a train at Wigan, getting off (without the bag) at Warrington, and then having another person trigger the explosion when the train pulls into Crewe.

Alternately just park your bike at Crewe and then walk out of the station before it goes off 5 minutes later. Chance of the pannier being searched in that time is about zero. Hell just leave a suitcase and ask someone to keep an eye on it while you "pop to the loo"
 
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43066 said:
I’m very glad decisions around security measures aren’t being taken by certain contributors to this thread!
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Bantamzen said:
If this additional security means that a few bike bags may get checked, is it really such a big deal in the great scheme of things?
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Any security measures help to disrupt acts of terrorism, you will never eliminate them, but vigilance and checks help to make it more difficult for the bad actors to acheive their goal. You will never know how many attacks have been stopped, so all you can do is try and tip the odds in your favour. Given the current situation in other parts of the world I expect to see more security generally. We can all think of scenarios where security measures will not stop an attack, but that shouldn't stop us from taking what to me seem like obvious precautions.

In France SNCF ask that you identify all your bags with a tag, and on one occasion whilst boarding staff were checking and handing out luggage labels to those who were not aware. Again its a small thing, but can mean that an orphaned bag can be reunited with its owner more quickly, so avoiding more disruption.
 
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Bantamzen

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mike57 said:
Any security measures help to disrupt acts of terrorism, you will never eliminate them, but vigilance and checks help to make it more difficult for the bad actors to acheive their goal. You will never know how many attacks have been stopped, so all you can do is try and tip the odds in your favour. Given the current situation in other parts of the world I expect to see more security generally. We can all think of scenarios where security measures will not stop an attack, but that shouldn't stop us from taking what to me seem like obvious precautions.

In France SNCF ask that you identify all your bags with a tag, and on one occasion whilst boarding staff were checking and handing out luggage labels to those who were not aware. Again its a small thing, but can mean that an orphaned bag can be reunited with its owner more quickly, so avoiding more disruption.
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Security measures will depend on the individual country's assessment of the current risk. Where I work in a large public sector building, a quick visual check of the security pass & validation by the entry gate is all that is required to get in, however at times of heightened threat levels entry to my workplace could at times involve bag / coat searches. So it could be that checks of bikes at stations involves no more than a quick glace most of the time, whereas at higher levels security staff would have the legal right to physically check them if needs be. The posters expressing concern that bikes might be checked really needn't do so, it is there as an option depending on current circumstances not as some repressive method to monitor them. Hopefully we would never need the level of security seen in some other countries as you mention, though if alerts were sufficiently high for long enough, maybe we would see some?

Perhaps a way around this is not to leave said bags on the bikes, or don't carry them at all if not needed?
 
Horizon22

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sheff1 said:
So why aren't these proactive searches taking place across the board ?
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Who says they aren’t? Some stations only need them every few hours so unless you’re hanging around for ages, you might not see them.
 
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43066 said:
That might be an argument for changing the car parking arrangements. I fail to see how it’s an argument against checking cycle panniers.
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They wont though, as whatever their security arguments, car parks bring in more money.
 
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I've seen security (including travel safe officers) patrolling station car parks, and the police will sometimes try doors to see if people left them unlocked - then leave a warning notice to ensure vehicles are locked securely to prevent theft.

Community forums often show camera footage of people walking around at night checking vehicle doors, and likewise people reporting theft as for whatever reason they'd left doors unlocked. (there are even jammers on sale to prevent keys remotely locking, to enable easy entry in large car parks - so always check!).

As I said, security isn't just bombs.
 
CaptainHaddock

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Horizon22 said:
Substantial: https://www.protectuk.police.uk/threat-levels
Click to expand...

43066 said:
Who has suggested they are ignoring anything else that could easily house a bomb?



The Parsons Green District line bomb in 2017 didn’t happen, then?

I’m very glad decisions around security measures aren’t being taken by certain contributors to this thread!
Click to expand...
Well being slightly pedantic Parsons Green was on the Underground rather than the national rail network and reading up on it, it seems about as serious an incident as some lone nutter letting off a fireworks indoors. Just because the Metropolitan Police classed it as a terrorist attack doesn't make it one.

Without veering too far off topic, it's to the security services' advantage to exaggerate the terrorist threat in order to keep themselves in work and justify their behaviours. The idea that there's huge danger from a vast network of imaginary cycling terrorists running around hiding bombs in panniers is too ridiculous to take seriously!
 
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uglymonkey

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" it's to the security services' advantage to exaggerate the terrorist threat in order to keep themselves in work and justify their behaviours." And Overtime !
 
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And when a bomb does go off one day the very same people moaning will be first to blame the security services for not stopping it from happening
 
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TurboMan

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CaptainHaddock said:
Well being slightly pedantic Parsons Green was on the Underground rather than the national rail network and reading up on it, it seems about as serious an incident as some lone nutter letting off a fireworks indoors. Just because the Metropolitan Police classed it as a terrorist attack doesn't make it one.

Without veering too far off topic, it's to the security services' advantage to exaggerate the terrorist threat in order to keep themselves in work and justify their behaviours. The idea that there's huge danger from a vast network of imaginary cycling terrorists running around hiding bombs in panniers is too ridiculous to take seriously!
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There is so much wilful ignorance in this post I don't know where to start responding, or even if it's worth it.
 
The exile

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A couple of quotes:

Attributed to Thomas Jefferson: The price of freedom is eternal vigilance”.

An IRA spokesperson after the Brighton bomb: “We were unlucky this time. Remember - we only have to be lucky once. You have to be lucky always”
 
CarrotPie

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Bantamzen said:
Perhaps a way around this is not to leave said bags on the bikes,
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Yes, I'll just take my panniers into London with me for the day.
Northerngirl said:
How many ira attacks have there been in the last 30 years?
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Not many, I should think. <sarcasm> But they happened once, so it could happen again any time! </sarcasm>
 
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CarrotPie said:
Yes, I'll just take my panniers into London with me for the day
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It makes sense to choose bags that are useful for carrying what you need for the day. For instance, you can get panniers which are also shoulder bags or rucksacks. Or you can just carry a small rucksack if panniers aren't needed. You don't have to leave them on the bike if you aren't carrying things in them, that would be pointless and risk theft or vandalism.
 
ComUtoR

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ExRes said:
You know that and I know that, it's clear to me that some people aren't aware of it though
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Ya, yours was just the convenient quotable post. Nothing meant by it other than using "Terrorism"
 
Northerngirl

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The Quincunx said:
The IRA left a bomb in the basket of a delivery bicycle in Coventry in 1939 (not at a railways station). Killed 5 people.
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The Germans left a bomb in my grans roof in 1939, yet they now let lufthansa fly over every day. If we made up rules banning anything that might be a bomb, they everyone would have to walk around naked and live in glass houses
 
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miami

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ComUtoR said:
'Security' checks are not just about Terrorism or Bomb threats.
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What threats are mitigated by searching through panniers which are not threats when it's a vehicle parked in a carpark, a suitcase been left alone in a toilet cubicle for 20 minutes, or in a suitcase or pannier left on a train and not noticed until the end of the line?

Out of an abundance of caution wouldn't it be more sensible to search all bags arriving at all stations?

But then this is a country that thinks we need to queue up and be searched and have our screwdrivers confiscated on a passenger train in case we, err, hijack the train and take it to Cuba?

Glad someone quoted Jefferson, yes we need to be eternally vigilant against the petty-state's arbitary searches of (some) private property, easy to forget it.
 
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