Does scanning a ticket at a barricade make it invalid?

bananamanana · 11 Apr 2024

So this is super silly but it was a genuine mistake

I bought mine and my friends tickets from Birmingham to London. It was an off peak ticket and an off peak return (we’re returning the following day)

We got on an off peak train but turns out it was one that we couldn’t be on (Avanti) and someone on the speaker announced that if you’re on the wrong train you can either get off at Coventry or pay the fare difference

We got off at Coventry and decided to go get some snacks since the next train wasn’t for 40 minutes. I think I might’ve scanned the return ticket on accident when going through the barricade to get out and i’m really worried that makes both the return tickets invalid?

I’m really worried that even if someone in London says it’s okay, someone in Birmingham or on the train might not believe me.

Do I need to buy two new return tickets or is it still completely fine to use those ones?

It was a genuine silly mistake and the tickets are still showing up on my trainline account as valid until May?

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jfollows · 11 Apr 2024

No, scanning a ticket at a barrier does not invalidate it in any way.

If you want a more definitive answer to your situation then please provide more information such as the exact tickets that you hold and the trains you travelled on, but scanning a Birmingham-London ticket at the barrier at Coventry on the outward journey when exiting the station is the correct thing to do and does not change the ticket in any way. You do not need to buy new tickets.

swt_passenger · 11 Apr 2024

jfollows said:
No, scanning a ticket at a barrier does not invalidate it in any way.

If you want a more definitive answer to your situation then please provide more information such as the exact tickets that you hold and the trains you travelled on, but scanning a Birmingham-London ticket at the barrier at Coventry on the outward journey when exiting the station is the correct thing to do and does not change the ticket in any way. You do not need to buy new tickets.

It was the return portion that was accidentally scanned at Coventry, I think that changes things slightly.

robbeech · 11 Apr 2024

It doesn’t make this invalid, however the scan may change what a member of staff’s device displays and/or whether another barrier lets you through on your actual return.

I think the only thing to do is expect a bit of hassle and plan to explain what happened. The combination of all scans on the outward and return SHOULD be self explanatory to a member of staff.
Keep a note of exactly which trains you caught.
There’s no issue breaking your journey at Coventry.

bananamanana · 11 Apr 2024

robbeech said:
It doesn’t make this invalid, however the scan may change what a member of staff’s device displays and/or whether another barrier lets you through on your actual return.

I think the only thing to do is expect a bit of hassle and plan to explain what happened. The combination of all scans on the outward and return SHOULD be self explanatory to a member of staff.
Keep a note of exactly which trains you caught.
There’s no issue breaking your journey at Coventry.

Yeah I think that’s what i’m worried about! is how they’ll respond to it

I guess i’m just worried above possible fines or repercussions? also don’t want to get into trouble

Bletchleyite · 11 Apr 2024

bananamanana said:
Yeah I think that’s what i’m worried about! is how they’ll respond to it

I guess i’m just worried above possible fines or repercussions? also don’t want to get into trouble

Probably worth having the outward still available to scan. "I scanned it by accident, I also scanned this as I should have done" - then they can see the scans on both.

If you scanned *and entered* on the return, or even worse scanned it at both ends, i.e. don't have a corresponding scan on the correct ticket, I'd suggest you are going to find that impossible to explain and may wish to discard the ticket on the grounds of hassle avoidance.

Birmingham · 11 Apr 2024

Bletchleyite said:
Probably worth having the outward still available to scan. "I scanned it by accident, I also scanned this as I should have done" - then they can see the scans on both.

If you scanned *and entered* on the return, or even worse scanned it at both ends, i.e. don't have a corresponding scan on the correct ticket, I'd suggest you are going to find that impossible to explain and may wish to discard the ticket on the grounds of hassle avoidance.

A scan into Birmingham on the outward at the beginning of their journey should help this.

HurdyGurdy · 11 Apr 2024

Bletchleyite said:
If you scanned *and entered* on the return, or even worse scanned it at both ends, i.e. don't have a corresponding scan on the correct ticket, I'd suggest you are going to find that impossible to explain and may wish to discard the ticket on the grounds of hassle avoidance.

As I understand it, the data associated with a scan includes a timestamp. If that's the case, it should be possible to see from the time sequence of any scans, one which can be recognised as being consistent with a mistake as opposed to use of the ticket for travel. However I'd be surprised if hand scanners on a train or at a barrier offer staff this level of interrogation of the data.

Personally, I would not be happy to simply throw a ticket away and buy a new one in circumstances like the OP's. Before trying to use the return portion I would go to a ticket office, explain what had happened and ask for advice. It may be possible to get a digital endorsement applied to the ticket to make it clear it's valid for travel.

redreni · 11 Apr 2024

Bletchleyite said:
Probably worth having the outward still available to scan. "I scanned it by accident, I also scanned this as I should have done" - then they can see the scans on both.

If you scanned *and entered* on the return, or even worse scanned it at both ends, i.e. don't have a corresponding scan on the correct ticket, I'd suggest you are going to find that impossible to explain and may wish to discard the ticket on the grounds of hassle avoidance.

Would you not agree, then, that this is a downside of e-tickets compared to CCSTs?

I appreciate there are many upsides, especially avoiding collection issues, but I've often heard it said there are no downsides. I'm rather sceptical of this because of the way they're actually treated by barriers and staff. The very fact that some in the industry seem to see benefits in terms of detecting irregular travel seems to me to have a corresponding downside for honest passengers - e.g. this situation where an unexpected scan is going to flag to the system that something funny is going on, when actually nothing is.

HurdyGurdy · 11 Apr 2024

redreni said:
this situation where an unexpected scan is going to flag to the system that something funny is going on, when actually nothing is.

An unintended scan at a ticket barrier should not indicate that anything funny is going on. All it shows is that the ticket was used to enter or exit the station at a particular time. In a well designed system that single scan should not mean that the ticket is marked as having been used and therefore not valid to be used again. It's only reasonable to infer use of the ticket if it's subsequently scanned at a different location, such as an exit barrier or on board a train. On some train company websites the FAQ about e-ticket includes a question about obtaining a refund if an e-ticket is scanned at a ticket barrier but then the train is cancelled. The answer given is in that circumstance you can apply for a refund in the normal way. This suggests to me that where they choose to interpret the scan at a barrier correctly, a train company can do so. But evidence from elsewhere, such as reports of trawls of historic records, or problems having the ticket accepted subsequent to a break of journey, suggests they sometimes choose to interpret it differently.

transportphoto · 11 Apr 2024

HurdyGurdy said:
However I'd be surprised if hand scanners on a train or at a barrier offer staff this level of interrogation of the data.

They do. Just requires the member of staff to be willing (and able) to have a look and interpret the data.

HurdyGurdy · 11 Apr 2024

transportphoto said:
Just requires the member of staff to be willing (and able) to have a look and interpret the data.

The GB passenger rail industry in a nutshell, there.

Bletchleyite · 11 Apr 2024

redreni said:
Would you not agree, then, that this is a downside of e-tickets compared to CCSTs?

It certainly is, yes (though would be equivalent to a guard's stamp being placed on the wrong portion of a CCST which does occasionally happen).

It's equivalent to if gatelines physically marked CCST (which they do in some countries).

HurdyGurdy · 11 Apr 2024

Bletchleyite said:
It's equivalent to if gatelines physically marked CCST (which they do in some countries).

It's not about the mark. It's about the interpretation of it.

I'm very much in favour of e-tickets. The principle is good and the technology (barcodes and readers) seems to work very well. The potential downside for the user is that they no longer hold a definitive document, however marked. The barcode they hold is just an index to a set of records held on a server to which the user has no independent access. To use an e-ticket I have to trust the train company to properly search out understand what those records represent, so they don't pass off a valid ticket as not valid, etc. This shouldn't really be a problem - and to be fair, in most cases it won't be - but it's my complete lack of faith that staff employed by GB train companies will - in all cases - be both willing and able to interpret the e-ticket data fully and correctly which is the barrier to me adopting e-tickets generally.

bkhtele · 11 Apr 2024

"However I'd be surprised if hand scanners on a train or at a barrier offer staff this level of interrogation of the data."
Yes on an e ticket they will show exactly what happened & will match your explanation. Interesting if it was a paper ticket where the return portion went through the barrier at Coventry you are just as likely to have a problem as it should be rejected by the barrier "seek assistance"

Bletchleyite · 11 Apr 2024

bkhtele said:
"However I'd be surprised if hand scanners on a train or at a barrier offer staff this level of interrogation of the data."
Yes on an e ticket they will show exactly what happened & will match your explanation. Interesting if it was a paper ticket where the return portion went through the barrier at Coventry you are just as likely to have a problem as it should be rejected by the barrier "seek assistance"

I don't agree just as likely. If a paper ticket rejects in a gateline staff usually just look at it and if it looks OK just let you through. I've never known them interrogate the magstripe, ever.

bkhtele · 11 Apr 2024

Many gatelines interrogate mag stripes & many let though Mobile tickets with a reject code 42 without checking. I am sure it varies widely by location

Bletchleyite · 11 Apr 2024

bkhtele said:
Many gatelines interrogate mag stripes

The gateline does, but on rejection with a paper ticket staff will just look at it and let you through.

Wallsendmag · 11 Apr 2024

bkhtele said:
"However I'd be surprised if hand scanners on a train or at a barrier offer staff this level of interrogation of the data."
Yes on an e ticket they will show exactly what happened & will match your explanation. Interesting if it was a paper ticket where the return portion went through the barrier at Coventry you are just as likely to have a problem as it should be rejected by the barrier "seek assistance"

They do indeed have have a facility to see the scan record of where and when.

HurdyGurdy · 11 Apr 2024

Wallsendmag said:
They do indeed have have a facility to see the scan record of where and when.

The bog-standard railway industry response.

Having the facility to do it is all well and good. How many on-train or barrier staff know that facility exists, and more importantly, how many would understand how to correctly interpret the data they are looking at, if they did?

redreni · 11 Apr 2024

bkhtele said:
"However I'd be surprised if hand scanners on a train or at a barrier offer staff this level of interrogation of the data."
Yes on an e ticket they will show exactly what happened & will match your explanation. Interesting if it was a paper ticket where the return portion went through the barrier at Coventry you are just as likely to have a problem as it should be rejected by the barrier "seek assistance"

Yes but they're most unlikely to do anything other than just let you through.

Wallsendmag · 11 Apr 2024

HurdyGurdy said:
The bog-standard railway industry response.

Having the facility to do it is all well and good. How many on-train or barrier staff know that facility exists, and more importantly, how many would understand how to correctly interpret the data they are looking at, if they did?

Quite a few that I know of but maybe thats because the TOC I used to work for were further down the smart path than most.

Haywain · 11 Apr 2024

Wallsendmag said:
Quite a few that I know of but maybe thats because the TOC I used to work for were further down the smart path than most.

To be fair, I've yet to see barrier staff (anywhere) scanning an eTicket that a barrier has rejected.

Wallsendmag · 11 Apr 2024

Haywain said:
To be fair, I've yet to see barrier staff (anywhere) scanning an eTicket that a barrier has rejected.

If you're still in the big league next year I'll show you when we meet up

blueberry11 · 11 Apr 2024

I mean, if the station has barriers, but ticket wasn't scanned at origin station, you shouldn't be in trouble or questioned why because either, the barriers are open at the origin station, or they are split ticketing.

Similarly for paper CCST (credit card sized ticket), some actually write on it, the equivalent of a barcode ticket scan while others just take a visual check. That should also not preclude a break of journey and passengers should still be allowed to either break their journey again or to reach their destination at no extra cost (provided their ticket is within the validity).

bkhtele · 12 Apr 2024

blueberry11 said:
I mean, if the station has barriers, but ticket wasn't scanned at origin station, you shouldn't be in trouble or questioned why because either, the barriers are open at the origin station, or they are split ticketing.

Similarly for paper CCST (credit card sized ticket), some actually write on it, the equivalent of a barcode ticket scan while others just take a visual check. That should also not preclude a break of journey and passengers should still be allowed to either break their journey again or to reach their destination at no extra cost (provided their ticket is within the validity).

Agreed, I am sure this is what happens 99%+

eta · 14 Apr 2024

HurdyGurdy said:
The barcode they hold is just an index to a set of records held on a server to which the user has no independent access.

Not exactly; the barcode is a complete ticket on its own, though there are indeed scan records ("eTVD") associated with it that live elsewhere.

https://eta.st/tickets/ should tell you what's inside a barcode if you scan it, at least for some issuers. (The RDG aren't required to publicize the keys necessary to decode barcoded tickets, which I strongly believe is wrong!)

Wallsendmag · 14 Apr 2024

eta said:
Not exactly; the barcode is a complete ticket on its own, though there are indeed scan records ("eTVD") associated with it that live elsewhere.

https://eta.st/tickets/ should tell you what's inside a barcode if you scan it, at least for some issuers. (The RDG aren't required to publicize the keys necessary to decode barcoded tickets, which I strongly believe is wrong!)

Why?

eta · 14 Apr 2024

They aren't required to do that because they're a private company, and not subject to the Freedom of Information Act (otherwise you could just ask). Having the public keys is necessary to read the ticket content at all, but having them doesn't let you make your own tickets (you need the private keys for that, which are only given to the individual ticket issuers).

Accordingly, there's no risk to the security of the system if the public keys were made public — it only means that people can't read the content of their own tickets, which I think is a bad thing!

(The RDG also don't publish any documentation on how the barcodes work, which I also think is bad; however, I was able to figure that out myself without them last year. There's a writeup about that here: https://eta.st/2023/01/31/rail-tickets.html)

Bletchleyite · 14 Apr 2024

Wallsendmag said:
Why?

Why shouldn't a passenger see what is on their ticket?

If tickets were named they'd be legally entitled to do so...

Does scanning a ticket at a barricade make it invalid?

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