Advice on Single Justice Procedure Notice unusual situation

Hi Everyone
Looking for some advice on the next steps with below and these forums have really helped me previously.

On 1st November 2023 my 20 year old sister was visiting me from Ireland. She has never lived or worked in the UK was just over for a few days.

She used the Trainline app for first time and bought a child’s fare ticket by accident from Tile Hill to Birmingham New Street.
She was stopped and issued a penalty fare (I do not know how much it was for) and used my address where she was staying in coventry as her home address when asked.

Following that she submitted an appeal through the appeals service website. I don’t know exactly what she had written and now we can’t find it but she said she explained, she was here on holiday, that she was a student not very strong financially, and bought the child’s fare by accident.

She received an email back on 13th Nov 2023 with a letter attached stating that on assessment the appeal had been declined and that she had to pay £55.40 or submit a further appeal. So it turns out she did not do either of these and basically ignored that letter (I don’t know why exactly).

A letter addressed to her came to my address in Coventry dated 2nd April 2024 (which I opened as she obviously doesn’t live here and has been back in Ireland since) and it is a single justice procedure notice stating need to respond in 21 days (which would be 23rd April 24)can pay a settlement offer online of £175 plus outstanding fare of £5.40 or plead guilty by post and get a 33% reduction on the fine, or plead guilty in court or plead not guilty in court.

I don’t know what to do here…
If I ignore this as technically she has not received the letter as she doesn’t live here will I have the bailiffs turning up at my house?!

Shall I call the number on the single justice procedure notice which says for all matters regarding this notice and explain the that she doesn’t live here so unable to sign a guilty plea and send the notice back to received the 33% reduction in fine?

Any advice on what to do here?
Thank you all

Perhaps it might be best to forward the letter to your sister so she can decide what to do next?
Or return it to the sender advising she doesn't live at that address.
I'm sure other will be along in a while to give better advice.

Freddie101 said:

Hi Everyone
Looking for some advice on the next steps with below and these forums have really helped me previously.

On 1st November 2023 my 20 year old sister was visiting me from Ireland. She has never lived or worked in the UK was just over for a few days.

She used the Trainline app for first time and bought a child’s fare ticket by accident from Tile Hill to Birmingham New Street.
She was stopped and issued a penalty fare (I do not know how much it was for) and used my address where she was staying in coventry as her home address when asked.

Following that she submitted an appeal through the appeals service website. I don’t know exactly what she had written and now we can’t find it but she said she explained, she was here on holiday, that she was a student not very strong financially, and bought the child’s fare by accident.

She received an email back on 13th Nov 2023 with a letter attached stating that on assessment the appeal had been declined and that she had to pay £55.40 or submit a further appeal. So it turns out she did not do either of these and basically ignored that letter (I don’t know why exactly).

A letter addressed to her came to my address in Coventry dated 2nd April 2024 (which I opened as she obviously doesn’t live here and has been back in Ireland since) and it is a single justice procedure notice stating need to respond in 21 days (which would be 23rd April 24)can pay a settlement offer online of £175 plus outstanding fare of £5.40 or plead guilty by post and get a 33% reduction on the fine, or plead guilty in court or plead not guilty in court.

I don’t know what to do here…
If I ignore this as technically she has not received the letter as she doesn’t live here will I have the bailiffs turning up at my house?!

Shall I call the number on the single justice procedure notice which says for all matters regarding this notice and explain the that she doesn’t live here so unable to sign a guilty plea and send the notice back to received the 33% reduction in fine?

Any advice on what to do here?
Thank you all

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Hi - looks like a tricky and frustrating case

I think if you don't engage with it ultimately you will have the bailiffs turning up at your house. But that does not mean they can take your stuff I would think, as they would be after her not you. But it can never be great to have an address that is registered as a place where a debtor lived, I would have thought.

I guess you have options like:

- informing the court / train company this is not her address
- including her correct address in Ireland for them to follow up as they see fit
- returning the post with 'Not at this address' on the envelope - but you have probably already opened it, and this may not get back to the sender with any urgency or prospect of them acting on that info.
- forward the post to your sister with a frank opinion that she needs to sort it out ASAP, including telling them her correct and up to date address - is she likely to co-operate and do that?

The basis for her Appeal would sadly not have been valid in the first pace so would have been best to have paid the Penalty Fare and ended the matter then and there.

Good luck with untangling this - hopefully others will be able to give good advice on the best option to follow.

Seems like a very tricky case to be dealing with.

Personally I'd be contacting the court that issued the SJPN and informing them that the person in question does not live at the address given. If you know the address of your sister, give the court that address (the one in Ireland).

I'd also be contacting the relevant train operator that the person in question does not live at that address.

Once it is confirmed that your address is in the clear and no longer the destination for mail relating to this matter, send a copy of the letter back to the court confirming not at the address given, and at the same time, forward the actual SJPN to the sisters' address.

Good luck, hope you get this resolved.

WesternLancer said:

Hi - looks like a tricky and frustrating case

I think if you don't engage with it ultimately you will have the bailiffs turning up at your house. But that does not mean they can take your stuff I would think, as they would be after her not you. But it can never be great to have an address that is registered as a place where a debtor lived, I would have thought.

I guess you have options like:

- informing the court / train company this is not her address
- including her correct address in Ireland for them to follow up as they see fit
- returning the post with 'Not at this address' on the envelope - but you have probably already opened it, and this may not get back to the sender with any urgency or prospect of them acting on that info.
- forward the post to your sister with a frank opinion that she needs to sort it out ASAP, including telling them her correct and up to date address - is she likely to co-operate and do that?

The basis for her Appeal would sadly not have been valid in the first pace so would have been best to have paid the Penalty Fare and ended the matter then and there.

Good luck with untangling this - hopefully others will be able to give good advice on the best option to follow.

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I would suggest that the 3 highlighted actions above are the best bet.
If the OP and his/her sister have the same surname returning the post marked "not at this adress" would look suspicious.

If it was a penalty fare, and it was appealed, then there can be no prosecution.

Firstly get all the correspondence you can regarding the penalty fare and post it here, with names, addresses and references hidden.

We can then advise on the next steps.

No one has suggested what I think is the most sensible option - pay the £180.40 on her behalf and then chase her for reimbursement. If not the amount isn't going away and a court action will result. She may recieve a fine or worse.

From experience, albeit some years ago, you do not want to find yourself at an address against which bad debts have been noted. I would presume that this would be particularly so if the person that should be due the debt has the same name or is a relation. It is not that they can, as far as I know, actually seize your belongings, but it can result in a lot of time writing letters to stop them pursuing you. You should also be careful not to say anything misleading or untrue about your sister’s whereabouts.

The moral, and also the most expedient, option is to arrange for the £180.40 sum owed be paid to stop the matter escalating.

Puffing Devil is quite correct that as the Penalty Fare has been appealed, and so there is no legal basis for the prosecution to happen. However, on a practical level, getting the court and/or TOC to realise this and accept that the prosecution is improper will be time-consuming and potentially costly. The Penalty Fare of £105.40 remains due in any event.

The worst option is doing nothing. This will not go away, and the passenger will be convicted in her absence, followed by visits by bailiffs to the address. The bailiffs are quite likely to not believe that the passenger does not live there and this will cause a lot of disruption, particularly if someone with the same surname is at the address. There is also a non-zero chance of an arrest warrant being issued for non-payment of the fine, and should your sister visit the UK again, she could find herself arrested on landing. Or if she happens to drive up north and has any dealings with the PSNI resulting in her details being checked, it could end rather badly.

Jan Mayen said:

Perhaps it might be best to forward the letter to your sister so she can decide what to do next?
Or return it to the sender advising she doesn't live at that address.
I'm sure other will be along in a while to give better advice.

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Thanks am in contact with her regularly so she knows what is going on I said I will post on here for the best advice and we will go with that!

WesternLancer said:

Hi - looks like a tricky and frustrating case

I think if you don't engage with it ultimately you will have the bailiffs turning up at your house. But that does not mean they can take your stuff I would think, as they would be after her not you. But it can never be great to have an address that is registered as a place where a debtor lived, I would have thought.

I guess you have options like:

- informing the court / train company this is not her address
- including her correct address in Ireland for them to follow up as they see fit
- returning the post with 'Not at this address' on the envelope - but you have probably already opened it, and this may not get back to the sender with any urgency or prospect of them acting on that info.
- forward the post to your sister with a frank opinion that she needs to sort it out ASAP, including telling them her correct and up to date address - is she likely to co-operate and do that?

The basis for her Appeal would sadly not have been valid in the first pace so would have been best to have paid the Penalty Fare and ended the matter then and there.

Good luck with untangling this - hopefully others will be able to give good advice on the best option to follow.

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Thanks yes I think calling the court and explaining is likely a good idea. Sister is aware of what is going on have said I will post on here for the best advice. Agree with regards to the appeal but I suppose it was worth a shot. Shouldn’t have ignored the response though but that’s hindsight now! Would just advise her to pay the £175 settlement offer but don’t think it’s fair when she could plead guilty by post if she was here and get a 33% reduction in fine as the notice says

spotify95 said:

Seems like a very tricky case to be dealing with.

Personally I'd be contacting the court that issued the SJPN and informing them that the person in question does not live at the address given. If you know the address of your sister, give the court that address (the one in Ireland).

I'd also be contacting the relevant train operator that the person in question does not live at that address.

Once it is confirmed that your address is in the clear and no longer the destination for mail relating to this matter, send a copy of the letter back to the court confirming not at the address given, and at the same time, forward the actual SJPN to the sisters' address.

Good luck, hope you get this resolved.

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Thank you that does sound like the likely next step. I would have advised her to pay the settlement offer of £175 but I don’t think it is fair when she could plead guilty by post if she was here and get a 33% reduction in the fine.

Llanigraham said:

I would suggest that the 3 highlighted actions above are the best bet.
If the OP and his/her sister have the same surname returning the post marked "not at this adress" would look suspicious.

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Thank you. I will likely do this. Sister is aware of what is going on and I said I would ask for best advice on here.
I would have advised her to pay the settlement offer of £175 but I don’t think it is fair when she could plead guilty by post if she was here and get a 33% reduction in the fine. Maybe if they get the right address she will get the chance to do that.

fireftrm said:

No one has suggested what I think is the most sensible option - pay the £180.40 on her behalf and then chase her for reimbursement. If not the amount isn't going away and a court action will result. She may recieve a fine or worse.

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I agree I would have advised her to pay the settlement offer of £175 plus the fare, but I don’t think it is fair when she could plead guilty by post if she was here and get a 33% reduction in the fine? Maybe if they have the right address she will get the chance to do that?

Gloster said:

From experience, albeit some years ago, you do not want to find yourself at an address against which bad debts have been noted. I would presume that this would be particularly so if the person that should be due the debt has the same name or is a relation. It is not that they can, as far as I know, actually seize your belongings, but it can result in a lot of time writing letters to stop them pursuing you. You should also be careful not to say anything misleading or untrue about your sister’s whereabouts.

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Thanks for the advice. Agree with you, I will likely call them and just explain the situation with regards to the address. It is all true so I will just say it like it is and can give them her irish address?

island said:

The moral, and also the most expedient, option is to arrange for the £180.40 sum owed be paid to stop the matter escalating.

Puffing Devil is quite correct that as the Penalty Fare has been appealed, and so there is no legal basis for the prosecution to happen. However, on a practical level, getting the court and/or TOC to realise this and accept that the prosecution is improper will be time-consuming and potentially costly. The Penalty Fare of £105.40 remains due in any event.

The worst option is doing nothing. This will not go away, and the passenger will be convicted in her absence, followed by visits by bailiffs to the address. The bailiffs are quite likely to not believe that the passenger does not live there and this will cause a lot of disruption, particularly if someone with the same surname is at the address. There is also a non-zero chance of an arrest warrant being issued for non-payment of the fine, and should your sister visit the UK again, she could find herself arrested on landing. Or if she happens to drive up north and has any dealings with the PSNI resulting in her details being checked, it could end rather badly.

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Thank you agree with all that, I would have advised her to pay the settlement offer of £175 plus the fare but I don’t think it is fair when she could plead guilty by post if she was here and get a 33% reduction in the fine.. so likely will try to call them and explain the address situation and go from there?!

Freddie101 said:

Thank you agree with all that, I would have advised her to pay the settlement offer of £175 plus the fare but I don’t think it is fair when she could plead guilty by post if she was here and get a 33% reduction in the fine.. so likely will try to call them and explain the address situation and go from there?!

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I fear you may be misunderstanding.

The settlement of £180.40 is the total amount that is payable on settlement. There is no discount or reduction to this.

On a guilty plea in court, there will be a higher sum to pay, formed of:

1. A fine, probably 50% of a week's income, or £220 if the court does not have details of the income
2. A surcharge of 40% of the fine, e.g. £88
3. Court costs, which might be £150-200
4. Compensation of £5.40

There will be 33% off items 1) and 2) on a guilty plea. The 33% off does not apply to the amount of the settlement offer – there is no way of getting it any lower than that, it will not be reduced to £120.27.

If it goes through court the total she will owe will assuredly be more than £180.40.

island said:

I fear you may be misunderstanding.

The settlement of £180.40 is the total amount that is payable on settlement. There is no discount or reduction to this.

On a guilty plea in court, there will be a higher sum to pay, formed of:

1. A fine, probably 50% of a week's income, or £220 if the court does not have details of the income
2. A surcharge of 40% of the fine, e.g. £88
3. Court costs, which might be £150-200
4. Compensation of £5.40

There will be 33% off items 1) and 2) on a guilty plea. The 33% off does not apply to the amount of the settlement offer – there is no way of getting it any lower than that, it will not be reduced to £120.27.

If it goes through court the total she will owe will assuredly be more than £180.40.

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You are right I did completely misunderstand that! That is why I came to the right place for the best advice. So not sure now what would be the point in me ringing up and stating that her address is in fact in Ireland so they can just send the same letter there. Or can they actually send the Single Justice Procedure Notices to Ireland or to those living in other countries? Is it possible there is a chance of the whole thing being knocked on the head if she doesn’t live here? Thanks

Freddie101 said:

You are right I did completely misunderstand that! That is why I came to the right place for the best advice. So not sure now what would be the point in me ringing up and stating that her address is in fact in Ireland so they can just send the same letter there. Or can they actually send the Single Justice Procedure Notices to Ireland or to those living in other countries?

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I don't honestly know. You would need to contact the court.

Freddie101 said:

Is it possible there is a chance of the whole thing being knocked on the head if she doesn’t live here? Thanks

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No. If the case is not settled or otherwise attended to, it won't be "knocked on the head"; she'll be convicted in her absence, bailiffs will come to your house looking for her and to collect the fine or seize goods from the house, and you'll be in a world of hassle. And she could be arrested on arrival next time she visits the UK.

As I said at the outset, the moral and practical recommendation is to ensure the £180.40 is paid by the deadline.

Puffing Devil said:

If it was a penalty fare, and it was appealed, then there can be no prosecution.

Firstly get all the correspondence you can regarding the penalty fare and post it here, with names, addresses and references hidden.

We can then advise on the next steps.

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Precisely. Please post all the correspondence if you can, covering up identifying details.

If this was a straightforward penalty fare and a normal appeal, then it ought to be reasonably straightforward to challenge a prosecution as an abuse of process to try to persuade the court that the prosecution can go no further in the criminal system and instead the civil courts must be used. Of course the civil courts are unlikely to be sympathetic when a child's ticket was used so unless you are able to persuade them of technicalities, they'd be expected to order payment.

Short answer, just pay the settlement to bring it all to an end, and regret not dealing with it all properly earlier when it would have been cheaper and simpler.

furlong said:

Precisely. Please post all the correspondence if you can, covering up identifying details.

If this was a straightforward penalty fare and a normal appeal, then it ought to be reasonably straightforward to challenge a prosecution as an abuse of process to try to persuade the court that the prosecution can go no further in the criminal system and instead the civil courts must be used. Of course the civil courts are unlikely to be sympathetic when a child's ticket was used so unless you are able to persuade them of technicalities, they'd be expected to order payment.

Short answer, just pay the settlement to bring it all to an end, and regret not dealing with it all properly earlier when it would have been cheaper and simpler.

Click to expand...

furlong said:

Precisely. Please post all the correspondence if you can, covering up identifying details.

If this was a straightforward penalty fare and a normal appeal, then it ought to be reasonably straightforward to challenge a prosecution as an abuse of process to try to persuade the court that the prosecution can go no further in the criminal system and instead the civil courts must be used. Of course the civil courts are unlikely to be sympathetic when a child's ticket was used so unless you are able to persuade them of technicalities, they'd be expected to order payment.

Short answer, just pay the settlement to bring it all to an end, and regret not dealing with it all properly earlier when it would have been cheaper and simpler.

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I will try to get the penalty fare document. I only have the appeal rejection letter which my sister forwarded me on email and the SJNP that arrived in post at my house. If I get it I will post it altogether here.
With regards to either criminal or civil court etc. she does not live here so wouldn’t be here to go to court so would just be convicted in her absence?

Freddie101 said:

I only have the appeal rejection letter which my sister forwarded me on email and the SJNP that arrived in post at my house.

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Those two would still be useful to see.

The risk with ignoring everything would be getting unexpectedly jailed at the border at some indefinite time in the future, possibly long after she's forgotten all about it.

Freddie101 said:

I will try to get the penalty fare document. I only have the appeal rejection letter which my sister forwarded me on email and the SJNP that arrived in post at my house. If I get it I will post it altogether here.
With regards to either criminal or civil court etc. she does not live here so wouldn’t be here to go to court so would just be convicted in her absence?

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If there's a criminal court case and the accused person doesn't turn up (and they haven't paid a lawyer to be there for them - though normally the defendant would be there too in that case), then for a low-level offence like this (ie where the court doesn't require the defendant in front of them to, eg, send them to prison or whatever), it would be considered as uncontested and there would be a finding of guilt (by default, so to speak). It happens in magistrates' courts every day. In fact, the Single Justice Procedure is very much designed for a more or less automated process; I wouldn't be surprised if a significant proportion of SJP cases happened without there having been any response by the accused to the correspondence telling them their case was coming up.

Incidentally, if I've understood correctly, your sister was given a penalty fare because she didn't have a valid ticket. She might consider herself lucky to have got a penalty fare (and hence had the opportunity to deal with it that way ... if she had actually done so); travelling without a valid ticket is an offence, and she could have been straight into the "we're thinking of taking you to court unless you can give us a reason not to" phase, without ever having the option of dealing with it by the simpler penalty fare route.

I'm also a bit confused by your first posting, where you say she has now been sent "a single justice procedure notice stating need to respond in 21 days (which would be 23rd April 24)can pay a settlement offer online of £175 plus outstanding fare of £5.40 or plead guilty by post and get a 33% reduction on the fine, or plead guilty in court or plead not guilty in court." Is it actually a threat of it going through the court system if she still doesn't pay the latest settlement figure, rather than a document from the court? It seems a bit confusing as to whether she is in the court system or isn't. My understanding is that if she was already in the system and waiting for her case to come round, then the railway would be past the point of offering any settlment themselves. Normally, an "out of court settlement", where you pay the railway what they ask in order to avoid the case ever getting to court, only happens prior to the case being lodged with the court (as I understand it).

AlbertBeale said:

I'm also a bit confused by your first posting, where you say she has now been sent "a single justice procedure notice stating need to respond in 21 days (which would be 23rd April 24)can pay a settlement offer online of £175 plus outstanding fare of £5.40 or plead guilty by post and get a 33% reduction on the fine, or plead guilty in court or plead not guilty in court." Is it actually a threat of it going through the court system if she still doesn't pay the latest settlement figure, rather than a document from the court? It seems a bit confusing as to whether she is in the court system or isn't. My understanding is that if she was already in the system and waiting for her case to come round, then the railway would be past the point of offering any settlment themselves. Normally, an "out of court settlement", where you pay the railway what they ask in order to avoid the case ever getting to court, only happens prior to the case being lodged with the court (as I understand it).

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Some train companies have now started issuing the summons with a court date alongside an offer for out of court settlement, presumably as a way of showing they’re serious.

furlong said:

If this was a straightforward penalty fare and a normal appeal, then it ought to be reasonably straightforward to challenge a prosecution as an abuse of process

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it's still not one of those

furlong said:

to try to persuade the court that the prosecution can go no further in the criminal system

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This is correct as a prosecution is barred due to the unsuccessful appeal – but it is not going to be "straightforward".

To make this argument, the accused would likely need to appear in person or by a solicitor. The OP cannot do this on her behalf – the court will not discuss any aspects the case with them, it is none of their business. The argument would need to cite the relevant part of the Penalty Fares Regulations. If the application is being heard before magistrates, they might decide it is now a complex case and adjourn it to be heard before a district judge, weeks later.

None of the costs of doing this are reclaimable.

furlong said:

and instead the civil courts must be used. Of course the civil courts are unlikely to be sympathetic when a child's ticket was used so unless you are able to persuade them of technicalities, they'd be expected to order payment.

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Indeed. Currently the sum requested to stop proceedings is £75 more than the Penalty Fare due. If this ends up in the civil courts it will start ratcheting up costs.

island said:

it's still not one of those

This is correct as a prosecution is barred due to the unsuccessful appeal – but it is not going to be "straightforward".

To make this argument, the accused would likely need to appear in person or by a solicitor. The OP cannot do this on her behalf – the court will not discuss any aspects the case with them, it is none of their business. The argument would need to cite the relevant part of the Penalty Fares Regulations. If the application is being heard before magistrates, they might decide it is now a complex case and adjourn it to be heard before a district judge, weeks later.

None of the costs of doing this are reclaimable.

Indeed. Currently the sum requested to stop proceedings is £75 more than the Penalty Fare due. If this ends up in the civil courts it will start ratcheting up costs.

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I do agree with this - whilst the situation the OP's sister is in might mean that they are barred from bringing the prosecution, the practicalities of her being able to achieve that outcome from abroad are probably not simple, and almost certainly can't be done without spending money or time (and probably both).

Not made any easier by the fact that the OP can't sort it out with the court on her behalf easily, it would seem, despite being in the UK.

If paying the sum demanded as an alternative would stop things escalating further there seems a strong incentive to make that payment if it closes the matter. The OP and their sister are clearly in touch about this so could hopefully consider that option actively, and the sister could hopefully agree to repay the OP the sum.

The alternative would seem to otherwise run along the lines of the OP 'disowning' the sister as it were, in a formal response to the train company and the court, sending clear written information saying that 'the person who received the Penalty fare gave this UK address whilst staying on holiday (railway staff may even have been insistent on obtaining a UK contact address but we don't know what happened on the train), she is not resident at the UK address, this is the permanent address in Ireland, please send any further correspondence to her in Ireland, none of this has anything to do with me'.

I have no idea if that would work to end the matter as far as the OP is concerned, but it would probably result in demands for yet higher sums from the sister.

The Penalty Fare was the correct sort of action for the rail staff to issue in this case in my view (ticket at child rate bought by mistake by an overseas visitor who rail staff member might have known was not permanently based in UK) it's bad luck it was not paid promptly at the time to get the 50% discount, or promptly after the Appeal was rejected.

Freddie101 said:

I will try to get the penalty fare document. I only have the appeal rejection letter which my sister forwarded me on email and the SJNP that arrived in post at my house. If I get it I will post it altogether here.
With regards to either criminal or civil court etc. she does not live here so wouldn’t be here to go to court so would just be convicted in her absence?

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I could not get the penalty fare document. Have uploaded the letter my sister received by email from the appeal service and the pages from the SJNP which came by post to my address to my original post. Would only let me add 9 attachments so some pages missing include 2 witness statements and a blank statement of financial circumstances form. Appreciate your advice thanks

WesternLancer said:

I do agree with this - whilst the situation the OP's sister is in might mean that they are barred from bringing the prosecution, the practicalities of her being able to achieve that outcome from abroad are probably not simple, and almost certainly can't be done without spending money or time (and probably both).

Not made any easier by the fact that the OP can't sort it out with the court on her behalf easily, it would seem, despite being in the UK.

If paying the sum demanded as an alternative would stop things escalating further there seems a strong incentive to make that payment if it closes the matter. The OP and their sister are clearly in touch about this so could hopefully consider that option actively, and the sister could hopefully agree to repay the OP the sum.

The alternative would seem to otherwise run along the lines of the OP 'disowning' the sister as it were, in a formal response to the train company and the court, sending clear written information saying that 'the person who received the Penalty fare gave this UK address whilst staying on holiday (railway staff may even have been insistent on obtaining a UK contact address but we don't know what happened on the train), she is not resident at the UK address, this is the permanent address in Ireland, please send any further correspondence to her in Ireland, none of this has anything to do with me'.

I have no idea if that would work to end the matter as far as the OP is concerned, but it would probably result in demands for yet higher sums from the sister.

The Penalty Fare was the correct sort of action for the rail staff to issue in this case in my view (ticket at child rate bought by mistake by an overseas visitor who rail staff member might have known was not permanently based in UK) it's bad luck it was not paid promptly at the time to get the 50% discount, or promptly after the Appeal was rejected.

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Thank you understand all that. Appreciate will likely end up just paying the settlement offer. Have attached docs to original post if that helps at all

So that looks like another SJPN wrongly issued? There are journalists beginning to take an interest

Freddie101 said:

Appreciate will likely end up just paying the settlement offer

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That's still likely to be the pragmatic answer. Otherwise (or additionally) she might contact the court to say she thinks the prosecutor might have made an error of law and to ask how to ask the court to consider this prior to entering a plea. Specifically, she might want to take advice about applying to the court to stay proceedings as an abuse of process on the grounds that the train company has already imposed a civil penalty upon her in respect of this incident and so to prosecute additionally on what are the very same facts would amount to double jeopardy (double punishment in this context), and furthermore, failing that, the regulations under which that civil penalty was imposed explicitly provide that there are no circumstances in which a prosecution for the offence on the SJPN can be brought should she have filed an appeal against the penalty and should that appeal have been decided, as it has been, as evidenced by the letter. (If the train company doesn't back down, that argument would need filling out with more details and references to the relevant case law and regulations so it would be difficult to present without the help of a solicitor. If the court accepted the first leg of the argument, before 'furthermore', that might lead to implications for others more broadly and the train company might seek to appeal and the legal costs could begin to mount up.)

The key reference fot the second leg of the argument is this:

11(3) Where a person falling within paragraph (1)(a) has appealed against the penalty fare under regulation 16, proceedings for any of the offences specified in paragraph (4) may only be brought against that person for the same failure to produce a platform ticket or a valid travel ticket if the operator, on whose behalf the penalty fare was charged, notifies the relevant Appeal Panel that the penalty fare is cancelled before—
(a) the relevant Appeal Panel has decided the outcome of the appeal under regulation 16; or
(b) the time period mentioned in paragraph 6 of Schedule 2 expires,
whichever is sooner.
(4) The offences referred to in paragraphs (1) and (3) are the offences under—
(a) section 5(3)(a) or (b) of the Regulation of the Railways Act 1889(a);
(b) any byelaw made under—
(i) section 67 of the Transport Act 1962(b);
(ii) section 129 of the Railways Act 1993(c);
(iii) section 219 of the Transport Act 2000(d);
(iv) section 46 of the Railways Act 2005(e);
(c) in respect of England, section 11 of the Fraud Act 2006.

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Ref. The Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) Regulations 2022, The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018

AlterEgo said:

Some train companies have now started issuing the summons with a court date alongside an offer for out of court settlement, presumably as a way of showing they’re serious.

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Or alternatively to "stop the clock" on the 6 month deadline for commencing proceedings.

furlong said:

So that looks like another SJPN wrongly issued? There are journalists beginning to take an interest



That's still likely to be the pragmatic answer. Otherwise (or additionally) she might contact the court to say she thinks the prosecutor might have made an error of law and to ask how to ask the court to consider this prior to entering a plea. Specifically, she might want to take advice about applying to the court to stay proceedings as an abuse of process on the grounds that the train company has already imposed a civil penalty upon her in respect of this incident and so to prosecute additionally on what are the very same facts would amount to double jeopardy (double punishment in this context), and furthermore, failing that, the regulations under which that civil penalty was imposed explicitly provide that there are no circumstances in which a prosecution for the offence on the SJPN can be brought should she have filed an appeal against the penalty and should that appeal have been decided, as it has been, as evidenced by the letter. (If the train company doesn't back down, that argument would need filling out with more details and references to the relevant case law and regulations so it would be difficult to present without the help of a solicitor. If the court accepted the first leg of the argument, before 'furthermore', that might lead to implications for others more broadly and the train company might seek to appeal and the legal costs could begin to mount up.)

The key reference fot the second leg of the argument is this:


Ref. The Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) Regulations 2022, The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018

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This is really interesting thank you.
It looks like they have wrongly issued the SJPN here but at the same time she never paid the penalty fare and that debt needs to be sorted I guess. The appeal was rejected and the option to either pay £55 or appeal again ignored. So what would have been the correct course of action for them rather than the SJPN in your opinion? Thank you

AlbertBeale said:

My understanding is that if she was already in the system and waiting for her case to come round, then the railway would be past the point of offering any settlment themselves. Normally, an "out of court settlement", where you pay the railway what they ask in order to avoid the case ever getting to court, only happens prior to the case being lodged with the court (as I understand it).

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There was a very recent thread where my understanding is that GTR did exactly settle and cancel after a summons had been issued
There was also one from GWR a few months ago
It seems that neither of these companies seem keen to ruin peoples lives by giving them criminal records if said people engage

I've possibly said it before but I had a speed gun pointed at me when I was fully aware that I was without doubt enough over the speed limit to be given an awareness course
Nothing happened but the waiting 14 days for a NIP was just as effective in moderating my future behaviour as an awareness course would have been.

Freddie101 said:

This is really interesting thank you.
It looks like they have wrongly issued the SJPN here but at the same time she never paid the penalty fare and that debt needs to be sorted I guess. The appeal was rejected and the option to either pay £55 or appeal again ignored. So what would have been the correct course of action for them rather than the SJPN in your opinion? Thank you

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West Midlands Trains should have written to request payment of the penalty fare, which I believe will now be £105.40. They could then start civil recovery measures, perhaps using a debt collection agency and a county court claim.

Personally, I would write to both the court and cross copy the letters.

1) To WMT - Apologise for the delay in payment, enclose a cheque for the full amount due, not their offer. Note that they are unable to prosecute for this matter as it has been appealed and the penalty fare regulations specifically prohibit prosecution of appealed penalty notices.

2) To the court - return the SPJN with a Not Guilty plea and a covering letter to say that the matter should not have been brought to the court as the penalty fare has been appealed. Quote the legislation per Furlong's post.

Sorry - I don't have time now to help with drafts, others may be along to help.

Puffing Devil said:

Personally, I would write to both the court and cross copy the letters.

1) To WMT - Apologise for the delay in payment, enclose a cheque for the full amount due, not their offer. Note that they are unable to prosecute for this matter as it has been appealed and the penalty fare regulations specifically prohibit prosecution of appealed penalty notices.

2) To the court - return the SPJN with a Not Guilty plea and a covering letter to say that the matter should not have been brought to the court as the penalty fare has been appealed. Quote the legislation per Furlong's post.

Sorry - I don't have time now to help with drafts, others may be along to help.

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Note that this needs to be done by the defendant, not the OP. The court cannot accept a plea or discuss the case with a third party.

island said:

Note that this needs to be done by the defendant, not the OP. The court cannot accept a plea or discuss the case with a third party.

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Absolutely - I should have included that. The OP can write the cheque or arrange the PO.

Puffing Devil said:

2) To the court - return the SPJN with a Not Guilty plea and a covering letter to say that the matter should not have been brought to the court as the penalty fare has been appealed. Quote the legislation per Furlong's post.

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Perhaps SJP works differently (and I couldn't track down the relevant procedural documentation online), but I don't understand how the defendant can be required to enter a plea PRIOR to the application to stay proceedings being heard. Once the problem is pointed out, wouldn't the normal course of events be for the prosecutor to accept the mistake and withdraw the case, but if they chose not to do this, wouldn't the application to stay proceedings be scheduled next, and only if that failed would a plea be entered? (If the application failed and the case went ahead, the defendant might decide to plead guilty; but surely they wouldn't want to plead guilty to a charge believed to be invalid in law until the matter of its legality was resolved.)

furlong said:

Perhaps SJP works differently (and I couldn't track down the relevant procedural documentation online), but I don't understand how the defendant can be required to enter a plea PRIOR to the application to stay proceedings being heard. Once the problem is pointed out, wouldn't the normal course of events be for the prosecutor to accept the mistake and withdraw the case, but if they chose not to do this, wouldn't the application to stay proceedings be scheduled next, and only if that failed would a plea be entered? (If the application failed and the case went ahead, the defendant might decide to plead guilty; but surely they wouldn't want to plead guilty to a charge believed to be invalid in law until the matter of its legality was resolved.)

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I say do this only as the "next best thing." Entering a not guilty plea to the SJPN with a cover letter puts the court on notice of what's likely to follow. If WMT does not withdraw the matter, then there will be a court appearance where an application to stay proceedings can and should be made.

I don't see much point in investing in a conversation with the court when WMT should withdraw and accept the proper settlement offered.