That's not what TfGM's stats show.
Bus punctuality report: 24 - 30 March 2024
Read bus punctuality report for journeys between 24 and 30 March 2024
tfgm.com
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Bee Network Service Improvements (Existing services)
- Thread starter Andyh82
- Start date
That's not what TfGM's stats show.
tfgm.com
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
johncrossley
Established Member
What about the large number of new buses, many of them electric, frequency improvements and buses running earlier in the morning and later in the evening?
markymark2000
On Moderation
The data in there does not include cancellations. Drivers I have spoken to have reported that they have never been asked to run so many not in service trips in an attempt to get back on time. Previously Diamond would let buses keep running late because sometimes it's better to have 2 buses run together and each one bunny hop rather than 1 bus taking 2 loads of passengers and consequently becoming even more late and creating a larger gap in services.
No tap on, tap off which was promised. Bus tracking which was in place from ALL companies prior to Bee Network but somehow the Bee Network app had no live tracking at all for months on end. Cheaper fares were promised and yet anyone using buses regularly is now paying significantly more than they were before! Those who lived along the Rochdale Road corridor were benefitting from Go North West's £14 weekly, that is now £21 under Bee Network. Overnight a £7 increase in the cost of a weekly ticket. If GNW did that, there would be uproar!
More on the tickets is a day ticket costs £5. Weekly costs £21 (so only worthwhile getting if you travel 5 days per week or more) but... get this.... a 4 weekly/28 day ticket..... £85.40! It's more expensive to get a 28 day/4 week ticket than it is to get 4 weekly tickets! Make it make sense.
Adding to that, 28 day tickets recently increased in price from £80 to £85.40, this was completely unadvertised bar notices which Stagecoach put up, this has now been met with Andy Burnham promising, if re-elected, he will drop the price down to..... have a guess..... £80!
Bee Network blamed the price rise on the ticket not being included in Andy Burnhams price cap:
johncrossley
Established Member
That is a System One ticket where the fare is set by the consortium of operators, so is set at a commercial level by those operators. It has only been possible to lower the daily and weekly fares through subsidy and with the agreement of the participating operators. This agreement predated the Bee Network.
markymark2000
On Moderation
Given the huge decrease in the number of other operators into Greater Manchester, it's reasonable to say that the issue was Bee Network. If this was all sorted away from the Bee Network, they wouldn't be blaming the mayors price cap, they would be blaming private companies (same as they do/did for almost everything else). They would have had a large say in the fares set given they manage so much of the bus mileage within Manchester whether through Bee Network or tenders. And why didn't the mayor bring 28 day tickets into the price cap? Something which was fully within his control to start with or if it happened to slip his mind, he could have frozen the fare for the recent fare changes but instead No, he let the fare go up, Bee Network refused to promote the fare hike anywhere and now he is using it as part of his campaign to be re-elected.
Given we have a £2 flat fare, I can't imagine there's a huge rush or need to bring in tap on-tap off on buses any time soon. Indeed I seem to recall the plan was always a flat fare in Greater Manchester, which makes tap off a redundant concept. It would offer no passenger benefit and simply introduce confusion. A simple tap on on the other hand - like London has - that would be great.
But here's the nub. Bee Network for buses isn't even fully rolled out. We're still in transition. It's going to take a while even to repaint the buses and rebrand the bus stops. Expecting everything to be done immediately simply is not realistic.
Come back and review in five years time. Then you can complain if things aren't done.
johncrossley
Established Member
Why do we have to wait until January until the 28 day ticket fare cut? Because TfGM won't need agreement from the other operators then. If they brought the 28 day tickets into the fare cap in 2022 then that would mean less money available for subsidising the 1 and 7 day tickets.
Burnham has pledged to bring in a £2 Hopper fare from January, so that will presumably involve tap on. Unless they make it mobile only. I suppose they could implement it by scanning paper tickets in the same way that day tickets are scanned.
Last edited:
It would be more useful to see how they're handling cancellations and I've asked them if they have that data. Equally, the views of the drivers you know don't add up to data about the network.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
This is really what I'm wondering.
If there hasn't been any material change in timetables, and no changes to bus priority (as it is early days, in all fairness), then where is the stated uptick in reliability coming from?
If it's that there are simply more resources (vehicles/drivers) and so more "slack" in the operations, is that the answer?
Djb1
Member
Id hazard a guess that the reliability uptick may be linked to the fact that 24-31 was school holidays in parts of GM this year, and included good friday. So general traffic would have been slightly lighter, even in areas where schools were still in....
TfGM started publishing data back in January for Tranche 1 showing performance improvements.
Djb1
Member
I was assuming some of the comments followed post 91 which specifically mentions the week before Easter.
I linked to the most recent available data.
Data for other weeks shows a similar trend.
Bus punctuality reports
We know that buses turning up on time is very important to you. You can see a seven-day snapshot of how bus services are performing on punctuality
tfgm.com
And this is despite the well-known problems with agency drivers, etc! It's amazing how powerful painting buses yellow and removing operator branding is. Just this one simple trick and all your buses run on time! Unless, of course, they're fiddling the statistics. And of course TfGM wouldn't have any incentive to do that, would they?I linked to the most recent available data.
Data for other weeks shows a similar trend.
Bus punctuality reports
We know that buses turning up on time is very important to you. You can see a seven-day snapshot of how bus services are performing on punctuality
Anecdote (not data obviously):- daughter got bus back from the Trafford Centre to Wigan yesterday, went to catch the 20:02 number 132. She told me after waiting nearly 40 minutes, there was (as she described it) a man wandering around who suddenly said "oh sh** I'm supposed to be on that aren't I" and went into the bus and put it into service. Guessing an agency driver. I was tracking it on BusTimes and could see it was tracking as sat there at the terminus the whole time, departed 43 late. And remained 43 late up until it arrived when it was only 20 late (so I myself set off too late to pick her up at the bus station). Brilliant service improvement there! Well pleased council tax has gone up £300million to pay for it.
markymark2000
On Moderation
Tap on tap off, tap and cap, whatever you call it. It's tap on, tap off for the trams and it's tap and cap probably for buses. Essentially easy contactless payments without people having to have paper tickets. Tap and go is the phrase I've found out TFGM are using (see below)
Tap and go It was always supposed to be an aim of having tap and go with capping from the very start.
On 17th Feb 2023 , the Greater Manchester Transport Committee met with Anne Marie Purcell, the 'Chief Transformation Officer' of the Bee Network attended and told people that tap and cap would be in place from day 1. That was a lie. It hasn't happened.
Link to the committee: https://democracy.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/ieListMeetings.aspx?CommitteeId=193
The minutes of the 17th Feb 2023 meetings can be found in the 17th March 2023 meeting under item 4, minutes of the meeting 17th Feb 2023. Scroll down to item 8 (starts page 8 and continues onto 9 and 10).
Sadly the recording of the Feb 17th 2023 meeting doesn't let you watch it, it errors with 'content has expired'.
Well, 2 things really. Either you'd still need agreement with other operators since the SystemOne ticket covers outside of Greater Manchester and includes cross border operators. Or, the other option, why didn't TFGM introduce a 28 day BeeBus ticket rather than only having the BeeAnyBus (System One) ticket? Nothing stopped them from subsidising System One or setting up their own ticket which could be done without agreement of other bus operators. The reason is the mayor doesn't care about frequent travellers.
Punctuality is being driven by the tweaking of frequencies / journey times especially during peak period over two timetable changes for Tranche One routes: these are mainly described as minor changes but destroy regular interval frequencies :
from 28th January: 29 36 37 65 66 70 74 75 79 126 129 132 362 471 472 474 501 507 511 512 513 516 521 524 525 526 527 533 537 541 544 559 561 562 571 572 573 574 575 576 582 583 584 588 590 594 635 X39
and 7th April : 29 65 66 70 74 75 126 129 132 163 472 474 507 511 512 513 516 521 525 526 527 533 537 541 553 554 559 573 574 582 583 584 588 594 596 597 V1 V2 V4
Unfortunately, Bee Network don't produce lists of service changes - these have been gleaned from their "travel updates" which disappear around 10 days after the change date.
Online pdf timetables show individual changes: https://tfgm.com/public-transport/bus/routes
eg: 163 https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93idf4jq/5E8F7CSx6bOeG9l4MPf3OX/9717f05e21334e7698f5ecff72ec9191/163_24-SC-0197.pdf note these frequencies at M-F peak with flow times:
Morning from Bury: 0604 0611 0619 0626 0634 0641 0649 0656 0708 0720 0732 0744 0759 0814 0829 0841 0853 0905 0917 and every 12mins until 1105 - journey times vary
Afternoon from Piccadilly: 1459 and every 12 mins until 1547 1600 1615 1630 1645 1657 1711 1725 1735 1747 1759 1811 1825 1837 1856 1908
Hardly customer focused (not memorable) but operationally convenient
Previously PTE/TfGM produced weekly lists of changes which were there for historical research.
from 28th January: 29 36 37 65 66 70 74 75 79 126 129 132 362 471 472 474 501 507 511 512 513 516 521 524 525 526 527 533 537 541 544 559 561 562 571 572 573 574 575 576 582 583 584 588 590 594 635 X39
and 7th April : 29 65 66 70 74 75 126 129 132 163 472 474 507 511 512 513 516 521 525 526 527 533 537 541 553 554 559 573 574 582 583 584 588 594 596 597 V1 V2 V4
Unfortunately, Bee Network don't produce lists of service changes - these have been gleaned from their "travel updates" which disappear around 10 days after the change date.
Online pdf timetables show individual changes: https://tfgm.com/public-transport/bus/routes
eg: 163 https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93idf4jq/5E8F7CSx6bOeG9l4MPf3OX/9717f05e21334e7698f5ecff72ec9191/163_24-SC-0197.pdf note these frequencies at M-F peak with flow times:
Morning from Bury: 0604 0611 0619 0626 0634 0641 0649 0656 0708 0720 0732 0744 0759 0814 0829 0841 0853 0905 0917 and every 12mins until 1105 - journey times vary
Afternoon from Piccadilly: 1459 and every 12 mins until 1547 1600 1615 1630 1645 1657 1711 1725 1735 1747 1759 1811 1825 1837 1856 1908
Hardly customer focused (not memorable) but operationally convenient
Previously PTE/TfGM produced weekly lists of changes which were there for historical research.
johncrossley
Established Member
They are obviously not going to do that, because one of the main reasons for franchising is to avoid having single operator tickets. They are presumably forced into creating the single company Bee Bus ticket for cross-boundary routes, presumably because of problems with the System One agreements. And they deliberately don't undercut System One and specifically advise that you are better off with the AnyBus ticket unless you are crossing the GM boundary on a Bee Network bus.
Note also that the £21 week fare cap was not originally part of the cap and is not BSIP funded, so they have already had to raid the piggy bank. Doing the same for 28 day tickets presumably would have cost even more.
Transport for London have long found that there is a point when people stop looking at timetables, and simply turn up. A 15 minute frequency is credited with the initial success of the London Overground for example. For their bus planning, TfL state that once you get to 12 minute frequencies - or better - people stop looking at timetables and just turn up and go.
https://content.tfl.gov.uk/bus-service-planning-guidelines.pdf (see page 4)
With that in mind, the individual gaps between services there to me look very much like the kind when someone will just turn up at not worry about when the next bus will be, because they know there will be one soon. Certainly I wouldn't be looking at a timetable in that scenario.
It's very different when you're looking at one, two or three buses an our (or even less). Very different when you need to plan. But with high frequencies you simply don't need to plan. I lived in Greater London for many years and very rarely looked at timetables. Hey, it's hard to even find a proper timetable in London. I know we're talking Greater Manchester here, but I seriously doubt it's any different at all. I genuinely believe most people will look at those intervals and not care one bit that they're not equal, as long as they get to a bus stop and don't have to wait too long.
mayneway
Member
Yes and no. The scania’s are causing major reliability problems and constantly having to be swapped with anything that’s available. I was on the 41 on Monday and can confirm the Solo was on there.
This was always a major issue on the 100’s out of Warrington. The amount of times people were caught out with S1 tickets was unbelievable. It’s still an issue as passengers still prefer the S1 day saver and weekly over the Bee tickets but once tranche 3 rolls out it will make life a lot easier.
Last edited:
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I wonder if anyone connected with the admin side of Bee Network monitors this particular thread?
Given their reply to the post on Twitter (linked up-thread) asking about cancellations -vs- reliability was "make an FOI request to individual depots", I'd be surprised if they cared enough even if they saw this thread!
mayneway
Member
As a driver all I’ll say is we are always making suggestions and giving ideas and they are completely ignored.
I was talking to a passenger a few days ago who was wrongly advised by a bee network customer service advisor, bought the wrong ticket then requested a refund as they were unable to use it, and she was saying she’d been ignored by them.
Andrew Holland
Member
- Joined
- 7 Jun 2018
- Messages
- 62
Agree totally, as a sidenote and as a Londoner also (who moved to GM in 2005) what I do find odd here is that most of the bus stops still lack timetables of any description, it's alien to me to just see a pole in the ground with a bus stop flag on it without at least some clue as to the level of service expected. Does anyone think TfGM will ever put timetables (or at least frequency/route information) at every stop, as London has always had?
johncrossley
Established Member
At least TfGM/GMPTE have had service numbers on all stops for decades, which became much more difficult when service numbers changed so frequently after 1986. They also have had to put up with frequently changing timetables over the last 37 years.
Until about the 90s lots of London request stops still didn't show service numbers, although there were usually timetables at the stop.
It would surely make sense for TfGM to run frequent routes like TfL, keeping buses at even intervals rather than sticking rigidly to a timetable.
Rod Harrison
Member
- Joined
- 15 Oct 2017
- Messages
- 116
I assume the well off Greater Manchester residents are happy to pay for a new bus service and everyone will be happy to use the bus or team instead of their cars even in the shocking weather we're experiencing these days. I read on another forum that it has cost, so far, £137 million to set up the Bee Network but, from what I read, services and information, are far from perfect. Also, bus services are being subsidised heavily, outside London, by the Government at present but once the election is over it is obvious that bus services will be a long way down priorities in future spending plans. I know it will take some years to see improvements in services, if anty, and get people to leave their cars at home. I expect the latter will happen by politicians forcing private cars off the road by heavy increases in the price of owning and running a car. I am sure that changing the rules for how bus companies operate, including cross subsiding services, would be a much more cost effective way of improving matters. Ah well, grumble of the say over!And this is despite the well-known problems with agency drivers, etc! It's amazing how powerful painting buses yellow and removing operator branding is. Just this one simple trick and all your buses run on time! Unless, of course, they're fiddling the statistics. And of course TfGM wouldn't have any incentive to do that, would they?
Anecdote (not data obviously):- daughter got bus back from the Trafford Centre to Wigan yesterday, went to catch the 20:02 number 132. She told me after waiting nearly 40 minutes, there was (as she described it) a man wandering around who suddenly said "oh sh** I'm supposed to be on that aren't I" and went into the bus and put it into service. Guessing an agency driver. I was tracking it on BusTimes and could see it was tracking as sat there at the terminus the whole time, departed 43 late. And remained 43 late up until it arrived when it was only 20 late (so I myself set off too late to pick her up at the bus station). Brilliant service improvement there! Well pleased council tax has gone up £300million to pay for it.
Manchester is not receiving any money for the national £2 fare cap for buses which don't cross the Greater Manchester border as they already had a £2 cap in place.
That £137 million figure is not "so far". It covers the first 5 years of franchising, with the fare cap accounting for between a third and a half of that.
Franchising, so far, is far from perfect, but, so far, seems to be better that before, fairly clearly in the first area.
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
The mayor was elected with creation of the Bee Network as a central part of his manifesto. If residents are unhappy with the outcome they have the opportunity to vote him out next month. Seems like an unlikely result but politics and elections don't always go as expected...
The Tory mayoral candidate was very anti franchising and sounds like she would love to dismantle it. Which I am sure would go down well with the bus companies. But anyway if anyone hates the Bee Network that much, there's options.
But the mood from Labour and the Tories at Westminster is moving to franchising more widely. I can't see this being reversed, can't see the enthusiasm from the general public to reverse it. Key thing is to make sure it does work that there are visible improvements over time.
It will be like before, things come full circle, for now its franchising, at some stage in the future at an undetermined date thing will go full circle and privatisation and the free market will happen again or a half way house between the two. Though I wouldn't be suprised in the interim if councils don't decide to go one step further at some stage and operate the buses themselves rather than franchising, after all TfGM own many of the assets now, including depots and electric buses, so there is nothing to stop them essentially going one step further and operting everything themselves, especially if it was thought at some stage cah could be saved that way. Everything always changes nothing ever stands still, and different politicians at different times have different idea's of what is best, and buses is one of those area's.
That would require legislation to allow them to do that, though.