Indeed. Especially when certain posters always default to assuming unions/train crew are in the wrong, and argue the toss when alternative explanations are given, despite clearly having zero knowledge or understanding of the industry! Frankly it’s a bit of a waste of time engaging.
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XC strike Sat 13th April OFF
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Indeed. Especially when certain posters always default to assuming unions/train crew are in the wrong, and argue the toss when alternative explanations are given, despite clearly having zero knowledge or understanding of the industry! Frankly it’s a bit of a waste of time engaging.
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dk1
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I have no idea what you are talking about. It’s all become quite nonsensical and bears no relation to the world of traincrew rostering agreements.
And we have plenty of training/briefing days. We certainly don’t need anymore.
And who is conducting these briefings at 5am on a Saturday? Operational trainers normally work regular office hours, and train crew have regular training days built into their roster throughout the year. Sorry if I've misunderstood but I'm not sure what your point was here.
The post to which you also refer does also not refer to the same grade (e.g. when Network Rail signallers were on strike for RMT) as some train services generally did run between 0700-1900 but some drivers might be able to be released if their diagram doesn't run. That would likely be on a case-by-case and individual basis if someone had missed training before and then trying to slot things in. It's all very tricky and would not be as easy as it has made out to be.
If you consider the use of the word "ridiculous" agressive (for something that was rather ridiculous) that's your opinion I suppose, but I don't think it is particularly so.
Rail staff aren't "attacking" each other because various grades, across various companies all appreciate how important and complex rostering and train planning can be and the importance of getting it right and trying to not messing around with it at short-notice. That's when you get into the realm of significant disruption and control teams trying to piece together the jigsaw!
This would all be better if both sides - but noticeably more so the DfT / RDG side - stopped playing brinkmanship on negotiations. They also know that 24-48 hours out is almost impossible to resolve, but it allows them to spout off this narrative - which you are repating - about "inflexible unions and drivers" whilst I think train planners would have a thing or two to say about that!
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Not forgetting that TOC rostering differs. Mine can have as little as a 16hr notice of change of duty.
Well your individual TOC has some particularly dire T&Cs!
Facing Back
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Thanks for this. it answered a few questions that I've be storing up whilst reading this thread.
FWIW I'm an average passenger who found this site when wondering what on earth was going on in the railways
With respect, I'm quite numerate and have decades of experience in operational organisations and I don't properly understand the situation around rostering, despite reading these threads quite assiduously. Please believe that this is not due to lack of interest.
Some other industries retain their rosters and can restart them with a small number of hours notice - nothing is stood down and in the event of a strike being suspended then staff come work as per their rosters. If they had been planning on a day off and can't make it to work then thats a different matter.
I am sure that it is different and more complex in the railway, I'm interested to understand in more detail as to why? I get the sense that the path of least resistance is to wind down the service early and enjoy the break but I'm not yet convinced that this is the only or best option.
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Lewisham2221
Established Member
AIUI, the problem arises when a TOC plans to run some form of skeleton service, with contingency staff, on a strike day. This requires alterations to diagrams and rosters for traincrew and units. Union agreements require a certain amount of notice to be given to alter rosters. In this instance, once driver rosters have been altered to reflect the skeleton timetable being operated, they require a certain amount of notice to be changed back again. On this occasion, it would appear that the strike was cancelled with insufficient time for CrossCountry to revert to the "normal" and give drivers the appropriate notice period.
If I am understanding things correctly, had CrossCountry decided to operate no service on the strike day, the rosters could have remained unchanged throughout, and thus a normal service could have been provided when the strike was called off.
I'm sure @dk1 or @43066 will be able to correct me if I'm wrong?
Facing Back
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Thats the missing piece - No service. I've got it now - My brain is having the weekend off so thank you.
manmikey
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A rough explanation, with a driver bias as I am a driver and for my TOC, other TOCs may do things differently but are largely the same.....
The train services that are required to run results in a Working Timetable WTT.
TOC Train planning departments will produce a set of diagrams based on the WTT each for rolling stock, drivers & conductors.
A diagram is just a daily list of things to do, for instance a drivers diagram will show signing on time, the timings and stop patterns of all the trains that the driver will work, it will show breaks and signing off time.
Train crew diagrams are governed by contracted terms and conditions, where you can sign on, minimum & maximum length of diagram, breaks location and length of break, walking times (yes!) Etc etc.
The number of diagrams that a depot has to work directly affects the number of drivers required, there is a formula and the number it spits out is the number of drivers required, it is called the establishment. The formula allows for sickness leave and spare cover.
It does not allow for any large scale training, this is where rest day Woking agreements are made between union and management. Such agreements allow for drivers to be released for training and for guaranteed leave by other drivers working their days off.
From a set of diagrams and an establishment of drivers local union reps (who are drivers) produce the rosters which are then agreed by management. Diagrams are allocated to staff dependent on route and traction knowledge and what Link they are in (Drivers are organised into Links [rosters] there are often several Links in a depot some with different routes and traction)
Once agreed the rosters are "hung" they usually run from December - May (the winter timetable and May to September (summer timetable) drivers can mostly know what they are doing for the next 6 months.
From those rosters the Roster Clerks will produce a weekly roster which allows for mods (diagrams modified for engineering works, strikes, storms etc) leave cover, sickness & training, to be allocated. In my TOC once you are allocated a diagram on the weekly roster it can not be changed (part of agreements that give a work life balance) but you can of course be asked to change jobs but can't be forced.
Finally a daily roster is produced showing the next days work, it should match the weekly roster but it allows for sickness and emergency leave, plus any emergency time changes to be allowed for. Like the weekly roster you can not be forced to work a different job, but you can agree too if asked.
This system is complex but it works, everything I describe here has been mutually agreed between union reps and management over many years. Part of the present dispute is the DFT via the Rail delivery group (RDG) wants to tear up all these agreements and terms and conditions that form the frame work for each step of the above process, they want to replace it with who knows what in the name of efficiency. We collectively feel strongly that the terms and conditions and rostering agreements are precious not only for ourselves and future colleagues but also the safety of our customers. Most TOC terms and conditions are based on the recommendations of Justice Hiddens report after the Clapham rail crash, it just should not be medled with.
Sorry to ramble on but perhaps it is a useful insight to one small part the vast and complex system that the Railway operations are.
Facing Back
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That is very helpful - thank you so much for making the effort - it really jelps me slot all of these things into place.
If I can be greedy, could you elaborate a little on what a "Link" is?
Diagrams rules can be simple on paper but complex to sort out for an entire TOC.
Shockingly, its a very simple 'formula'
Which is where this all really begins. "Rostering" is very different from "Diagramming" Roster rules can be quite complex and whilst they do offer a whole lot of flexibility, it really means in reality that it becomes something more brittle and the rules often become more restrictive.
We have a Master Roster > Weekly Amendment > Daily Amendment. Which, in general, means that even from the weekly roster, you can be altered on a "daily" basis; subject to terms and conditions. There is a plethora of rostering rules that do give flexibility to the TOCs but it also empowers the employee to say 'no' to being 'forced' into anything they do not wish. There are also a whole lot of politics and legal shenanigans too.
Which I would never agree to. As someone who has worked zero hours, part time, full time, flexible working, on call, link work, etc. I don't believe that the DfT have a Scooby what they are doing. Being able to plan month in advance is the cornerstone of Railway rostering. Reducing this to an on the fly, almost day by day roster is ludicrous. I will agree that we don't have flexibility in our rostering but that's due to the penny pinching nature of TOC Management.
manmikey
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No problem..
"Link" is just a word that is Interchangeable with "Roster" it's an historic word from times gone by , I don't know the origin it's always been used.
The Link is basically a list of drivers and what they are doing each day for example (Diagram No./Spare/Free day). Links will have a names such as:
Depot Link (depot drivers)
Starter Link (new drivers)
Top Link (senior drivers)
Mixed Traction Link (signs all types of traction)
Some depots have one Link some have Many, it depends what works best in that depot and how much work they have. There is a progression through the links based on seniority, so newly qualified drivers always start in the most junior link then as people retire or move or change jobs everyone shuffles up untill eventually you move up to the next link. It can take many, many years, decades even, to move up through the links in a large depot.
In larger depots with several Links the complex work is usually found in the Top link, the basic work is in the Starter link. This gives a good structure for newly qualified drivers to gain experience over time, each "move up" to a more senior link will usually introduce more routes and/or complex work.
It is also usual to not have night shifts is Top links, seen as a reward for all the years of graft in the lower links where night shifts are common.
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Facing Back
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Ah! Understood - thanks again. That's really helpful.
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