Buy before you board…

I’m not the most regular traveler, but yesterday witnessed something that intrigued me.

Boarded a NT at Scarborough, missus and myself had return tickets. No problem, three passengers board opposite. Well before departure time, and numerous warnings about boarding trains without a ticket on the screen displays. We set off, guard does full ticket check. None have tickets, they obviously walked by an open ticket office, and a machine. Wanted three singles to next station, came to £11. What’s the policy here? I’m not trying to cause an argument, I’m just curious how this can happen after seeing numerous warnings about boarding without a ticket, and the £100 fine plus ticket. Or is it not the guards problem?

Revenue would probably issue a penalty fare, or mg11 if they choose to consider prosecution. Some guards can issue pf but they often have other responsibilities like opening doors etc so may not have time for pf!

I’ve never seen a Northern guard refuse to sell tickets after people have boarded without them, or point out the error of doing so where alternatives exist. No wonder the ‘buy when challenged’ approach is rife. Of course, it’s also difficult to get into convoluted and possibly confrontational conversations when you have a stop every 3-5 minutes.

Most (if not all) conductors only have the choice of selling a ticket, or taking details for a Ticket Irregularity Report (TIR) which they submit to their company's revenue protection department for potential prosecution.

They wouldn't get very far along the train if they went down the TIR route for every ticketless passenger, whereas they are paid commission on any tickets they sell, and in the case of Northern, they are paid a small amount for every e-ticket they scan. So the incentives are very much to sell and check tickets, rather than reporting every passenger who has broken the Byelaws by boarding without a ticket.

Conductors also have discretion as to whether they sell tickets with Railcard discounts, and whether or not they sell Off-Peak tickets at relevant times. In fact they even have discretion as to whether to sell anything more than an Anytime (Day) Single to the next stop, followed by a separate ticket if the passenger wants to stay on the train.

Some companies monitor the tickets that conductors sell and may speak to them if they are deemed to be "too lenient" but certainly at Northern, any such monitoring doesn't seem to be too strict. In practice almost all conductors will sell returns to the destination the passenger states, and many also sell Off-Peak and Railcard discounted fares.

What conductors can't do is to issue Penalty Fares; only Revenue Protection Inspectors (RPIs) have the training and equipment to do so (although most companies' training leaves a lot to be desired).

I completely agree that it's a confusing and unhelpful policy - one week someone might be sold an Off-Peak ticket with a Railcard discount, the next they might be sold an undiscounted Anytime ticket, the time after that the guard might not come through at all and they could be issued with a Penalty Fare or have details taken for a TIR. There isn't really any justification for this disparity in outcomes, but when you look at the systems and incentives that are actually in place it all makes a bit more sense.

Thanks for that info Watershed.

Suddenly Northern's attempt to paper over the cracks by making crude threats on posters makes sense.

Presumably the intention behind the guard's discretion to offer or not offer off-peak tickets and railcard discounts is that they will take account of where the passenger boarded and what opportunities (if any) they had to buy a ticket? Northern do seem to have a lot of unstaffed stations with one ticket machine (which may or may not work) and no other facilities to speak of.

redreni said:

Thanks for that info Watershed.

Suddenly Northern's attempt to paper over the cracks by making crude threats on posters makes sense.

Presumably the intention behind the guard's discretion to offer or not offer off-peak tickets and railcard discounts is that they will take account of where the passenger boarded and what opportunities (if any) they had to buy a ticket? Northern do seem to have a lot of unstaffed stations with one ticket machine (which may or may not work) and no other facilities to speak of.

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In essence, yes. I suppose the other argument is that some unsavoury characters may kick off if they are forced to pay anything more than the Railcard-discounted and/or Off-Peak fare they're used to paying - and that it's better to safely collect some money, than to have the conductor assaulted and/or the train delayed whilst the BTP are called.

Whilst I don't doubt that the above situations do arise and of course there always needs to be an ability to sell discounted tickets to passengers who couldn't buy before boarding, greater consistency is clearly needed for the system to be fair. The consequences shouldn't depend on the job title of the person you speak to, or how generous (or otherwise) they're feeling.

Last time I visited Scarborough the one TVM was out of order full stop and the ticket office only was staffed by a single staff member, this was in the middle of 'peak season'

If you also wanted to be pendantic just refer to the following page on the Northern website which mentions penalty fares only apply for Transpenine Express!

Penalty fares apply for TP

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Ultimately the conductors didn't ask for penalty fares etc to be brought in and they still get commission. There's no incentive for them to both potentially get into an argument and lose money.

It is the consequence of the usual half arsed approach to doing things on the railway.

johntea said:

Last time I visited Scarborough the one TVM was out of order full stop and the ticket office only was staffed by a single staff member, this was in the middle of 'peak season'

If you also wanted to be pendantic just refer to the following page on the Northern website which mentions penalty fares only apply for Transpenine Express!

Scarborough Train Station Station | Train Times | Northern

Scarborough Train Station train station - view station facilities, live departures, latest timetable or book your train ticket to or from Scarborough Train Station station directly at Northern.

www.northernrailway.co.uk

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I can be even more pedantic if you like:

It only says PFs apply to Transpenine Express. It doesn't say PFs only apply to Transpenine Express.

redreni said:

I can be even more pedantic if you like:

It only says PFs apply to Transpenine Express. It doesn't say PFs only apply to Transpenine Express.

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To take it a step further, it actually says (under Ticket Offices): "Penalty fares apply for TP".

Which is the kind of incoherent drafting I've come to expect nowadays.

I travelled on an EMR service from St Pancras to Sheffield yesterday afternoon. It's was a 5 car dmu and quite full. As far as I could see there was no disruption. I was in coach C on a cross London Advance. When it came to the ticket check it was apparent that about a third of all travellers were on advance tickets on the wrong train. The train manager warned them all but didn't charge any of them. The party of 6 next to me were on split advance tickets but were allowed to continue on the wrong train. EMR must have lost £1000s just in the one coach.

paul1609 said:

I travelled on an EMR service from St Pancras to Sheffield yesterday afternoon. It's was a 5 car dmu and quite full. As far as I could see there was no disruption. I was in coach C on a cross London Advance. When it came to the ticket check it was apparent that about a third of all travellers were on advance tickets on the wrong train. The train manager warned them all but didn't charge any of them. The party of 6 next to me were on split advance tickets but were allowed to continue on the wrong train. EMR must have lost £1000s just in the one coach.

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It's a moot point whether EMR actually "lost" money if the passengers had tickets to travel, albeit on a different service. However I agree the passengers were in the wrong, unless they had previously obtained permission from someone authorised to give it.

The other day a youngish chap got on the train I was on at Stockton. Ticket check revealed he hadn't got one. He asked for a child ticket to Middlesbrough - I had to suspend my disbelief as he looked about 18, although being black it was hard to tell exactly. He was told he should have bought before boarding, and charged £4. When he queried the price, saying it's not usually that much for a child, the guard said "well you should have bought a ticket before boarding, you could get a £100 fine". He did pay up on a bank card. (Can under 16's have a bank card?). I guess the threat of the £100 fine persuaded the young man to cease arguing.

When I checked online I found a child ticket for that journey should have been £2, while an adult one is £4, so it seems the guard wasn't fooled either. The matter of the lad's age wasn't discussed but I think he decided to quit while he was winning rather than it escalating to a penalty fare or fine (sorry I never know what is the difference between the two, shameful after so long on this forum!).

trainophile said:

He did pay up on a bank card. (Can under 16's have a bank card?).

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Yes. GoHenry is one example.

trainophile said:

It's a moot point whether EMR actually "lost" money if the passengers had tickets to travel, albeit on a different service. However I agree the passengers were in the wrong, unless they had previously obtained permission from someone authorised to give it.

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I would suggest that the majority of the people with advances on the wrong train knew exactly what they were doing and that there was little chance they would be penalised. Why buy an expensive advance or flexible ticket when you know you can bluff your way past the onboard staff every time?

paul1609 said:

I would suggest that the majority of the people with advances on the wrong train knew exactly what they were doing and that there was little chance they would be penalised. Why buy an expensive advance or flexible ticket when you know you can bluff your way past the onboard staff every time?

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On that particular route you're as likely to find revenue protection pinging up and down as the train manager, if not more so. They don't tend to be particularly easy going with it. I use the Intercity services regularly and often see them, usually hunting in packs of 3. The guards grades (train managers and senior conductors) on EMR are encouraged to check tickets and educate passengers on issues regarding tickets but not to get stuck into battles over it - hence the deployment of revenue protection staff on the Intercity route where they should in theory get more bang for their buck.

I was of course assuming the "wrong train" was still the same operator that their tickets were for. If not that changes the situation entirely. Although I have a feeling EMR have the monopoly on that particular route?

The other day on a XC train the guard came through out of Sheffield. A passenger a couple of rows down, who had also boarded at Sheffield, produced a roll of notes and asked to buy a ticket. The guard said he needed to scan tickets and would come back.

No sign of the guard before both the ticketless traveller and myself alighted at York. York is, of course, another open station so doubt our man paid on arrival. Presumably commission on scanning multiple tickets is worth more than commission on selling one ticket to a willing customer (guard could obviously have encountered something which was more urgent, but that would only have happened after he had moved on without selling a ticket).