Delay Repay - Oxford <> Wakefield 13/04

See also This thread.

Starting this thread early because I already know things will be very complicated.

I hold a Heart of England rover, Derby <> Sheffield and Sheffield <> Wakefield day returns. On the morning due to the XC strikes and works at Derby, I took the relatively roundabout route:
1M22 XC Oxford (0739) > Leamington Spa (0813)
2G71 WM Leamington Spa (0840) > Nuneaton (0918)
1K07 XC Nuneaton (0924) > Leicester (0950)
1F20 EM Leicester (1006) > Derby (1028)
1Z39 XC Derby (1046) > Wakefield (1145)

If there were no strikes etc. according to the timetable I could have taken:
XC Oxford (0739) > B’ham New St (0851)
XC B’ham NS (0903) > Wakefield (1049)
This is hence a theoretical delay of 56 minutes.

The strikes meant there were no trains back, so I received endorsements from two XC train guards and the Wakefield ticket office for travel via London. I elected to travel for the 1858 LNER southbound, which was then delayed by a half hour due to OHLE issues. My travel itinerary as a result became:
1A48 LNER Wakefield (1936, +37) to London KX (2132, +26)
(45 min MCT)
1D45 GWR London Pad (2248) to Oxford (2359)

If XC was running as timetabled, I would have chosen to depart earlier:
XC Wakefield (1823) to B’ham NS (2004)
XC B’ham NS (2103) to Oxford (2216)
Technically a delay of 103 minutes but when taking into account the earlier departure, a 68 minute increase in journey time.

If we ignore the XC timetable and consider an undelayed LNER service the itinerary is:

1A48 LNER Wakefield (1858) > KGX (2106)
(45 mins MCT)
1U36 GWR PAD (2202) > Didcot Pkwy (2239)
2L72 GWR Didcot Pkwy (2245) > Oxford (2308)

Hence a delay of 51 minutes.

Given this, should I be claiming:
- From XC for an outbound delay of 56 minutes; and/or
- From XC for an inbound delay of 68 minutes; and/or
- From LNER for an inbound delay of 51 minutes

And should I be claiming the tickets based on the ticket price of:
- Oxford <> Derby, Derby <> Sheffield, Sheffield <> Wakefield off peak returns; or
- Oxford > Derby, Derby > Sheffield, Sheffield > Wakefield, Wakefield > London and London > Oxford off peak singles; or
- Oxford > Derby, Derby > London, London > Oxford off peak singles, Derby <> Sheffield <> Wakefield off peak returns

or any other such combination?

I'm afraid that you re only entitled to delay repay for actual on the day delays compared to the schedules of the services planned to operate on the day; and not compared to the the your original itinerary.

alistairlees said:

I'm afraid that you re only entitled to delay repay for actual on the day delays compared to the schedules of the services planned to operate on the day; and not compared to the the your original itinerary.

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That is how I understood it too, but the XC strike information page seems to imply you can.

There is a question in my mind as to which train(s) you actually caught from Paddington to Oxford. Can you confirm that you travelled on the 2248 departure?
If that is the case then I would say that you have a 51 minutes claim against LNER as their late-running caused your delay.
If by good fortune with connections from Kings Cross to Paddington you caught the 2202 departure and changed at Didcot, then you weren't delayed.
Someone else may be able to help with the combination of tickets applicable to the journey. I believe a fraction of the value of the Heart of England rover can be included along with a fraction of the value of the off-peak day returns.

I did travel on the 2248, yes.

I recommend avoiding LNER's automated Delay Repay system and emailing their Customer Service with all the facts and evidence, including the tickets and the endorsements allowing travel by LNER and see what they say.

But can LNER be deemed liable for Delay Repay when they were accepting tickets which would not normally be valid on LNER, and did so because the customer would otherwise be stranded?

Statutory delay compensation would still be due from XC, if the tickets were purchased before the cancellations were known, but this only applies where the delay is 60+ minutes. In this case, if the overall delay was over 60 minutes, I think you do have a case with XC, albeit for the minimum contractual amount, which is far less generous than Delay Repay.

In my opinion, it is wrong that Delay Repay has the exclusions that it has; it creates a mismatch, and most - if not all - rail industry systems are not designed to handle this. Furthermore, I suspect XC will just reject the claim. So it could be a big battle over a small amount.

25% of 70 pounds (if Oxford <> Derby <> Sheffield <> Wakefield) or 80 pounds (Oxford <> Wakefield) or 110 pounds (Oxford <> Wakefield any permitted) etc. is not a small amount for a student, to put it that way.

I suspect both XC and LNER will reject the claim offhand anyways, but I also am not clear on what claim I’m actually entitled to and so would like to figure that out before sending the emails.

yorkie said:

But can LNER be deemed liable for Delay Repay when they were accepting tickets which would not normally be valid on LNER, and did so because the customer would otherwise be stranded?

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I don't believe there is any claim against LNER. It should be against XC, who not only failed to provide the service but authorised an alternative route because of their failure.

Fermiboson said:

And should I be claiming the tickets based on the ticket price of:
- Oxford <> Derby, Derby <> Sheffield, Sheffield <> Wakefield off peak returns; or
- Oxford > Derby, Derby > Sheffield, Sheffield > Wakefield, Wakefield > London and London > Oxford off peak singles; or
- Oxford > Derby, Derby > London, London > Oxford off peak singles, Derby <> Sheffield <> Wakefield off peak returns

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Your claim can only be related to the tickets you had purchased, regardless of the route you travelled.

Fermiboson said:

25% of 70 pounds (if Oxford <> Derby <> Sheffield <> Wakefield)

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Is £70 what you paid?

If so, yes, you are due back £17.50 from XC. It'll cost more in the value of your time to get it, I suspect!

Fermiboson said:

25% of 70 pounds (if Oxford <> Derby <> Sheffield <> Wakefield)

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It won't be calculated against the full price of the Heart of England Rover as that is a multi day ticket.

yorkie said:

Is £70 what you paid?

If so, yes, you are due back £17.50 from XC. It'll cost more in the value of your time to get it, I suspect!

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I paid around 100 (HoE + Derby <> Sheffield <> Wakefield). But HoE is supposed to be calculated as a return ticket for the purposes of delay repay, and the relevant journey is Oxford <> Derby.

I thought that the multi-day cap was a cap on the total value of delay repay payable, not on the ticket cost used to calculate the delay repay?

Also, to be clear, is this 25% for the inbound or outbound delay?

Fermiboson said:

I paid around 100 (HoE + Derby <> Sheffield <> Wakefield). But HoE is supposed to be calculated as a return ticket for the purposes of delay repay, and the relevant journey is Oxford <> Derby.

I thought that the multi-day cap was a cap on the total value of delay repay payable, not on the ticket cost used to calculate the delay repay?

Also, to be clear, is this 25% for the inbound or outbound delay?

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There are two caps in play:

1) The price of the (notional) Anytime Day Return fare for the journey you're claiming for. A delay of 15-29 minutes is paid out at 1/8 of this, 30-59 minutes at 1/4 and 60 minutes plus at 1/2.
2) That's subject to a further cap based on the notional number of Single journeys the ticket is valid for. So a 3 in 7 day Rover will be capped at 1/6 of the price of the Rover, and a 7 day Rover at 1/14 of the price of the Rover.

So for a 3 in 7 day Heart of England Flexi Rover with no Railcard discount, the most you can get for a given claim is £109.00 / 6 or £18.17; and for a 7 day Rover it's £143.00 / 14 or £10.21.

If the Rover is a 7 day one, costing £94.35, the amount of compensation would be £3.40 for that ticket (the daily rate being £13.50, rounded up, and a quarter of that being £3.40)

Plus 25% of the sum of the return tickets, to calculate the total.

But good luck getting it!

Update (not really):
I have checked back at my card transaction records and it seems that the tickets were purchased on the 27th, not the 28th - and through a google search the 27th appears to be the date RMT announced their strike.

I recall to have bought the tickets around lunchtime. I don’t know what time in the day the RMT strike was published (nor should it really matter - it’s unreasonable, I feel, to have the passenger check every possible source of disruption every five minutes). Does this make a difference to the claims I am able to make against XC?

And, as a matter of academic curiosity, if the tickets were indeed purchased on the 28th would I be able to argue that the disruption was not advertised on the NR disruptions page until after the 28th, as a wayback machine check reveals, and so I am entitled to delay repay against the normal timetable?

Fermiboson said:

Update (not really):
I have checked back at my card transaction records and it seems that the tickets were purchased on the 27th, not the 28th - and through a google search the 27th appears to be the date RMT announced their strike.

I recall to have bought the tickets around lunchtime. I don’t know what time in the day the RMT strike was published (nor should it really matter - it’s unreasonable, I feel, to have the passenger check every possible source of disruption every five minutes). Does this make a difference to the claims I am able to make against XC?

And, as a matter of academic curiosity, if the tickets were indeed purchased on the 28th would I be able to argue that the disruption was not advertised on the NR disruptions page until after the 28th, as a wayback machine check reveals, and so I am entitled to delay repay against the normal timetable?

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Delay Repay isn't deemed to be payable (I don't agree with this policy but let's not go there here) as the trains were cancelled before the day of travel, even if late the evening before. Yes it's bonkers.

However if you had an itinerary then you can claim statutory delay compensation based on that.

Presumably you used a website such as ours for the segment of journey that wasn't covered by your Rover?

If you bought each ticket individually and/or don't have any evidence of an actual itinerary, then I think you have still technically a claim but the amount of time to spend arguing over it would be unlikely to make it worthwhile.

remember it's 25 per cent of the value of a return

I see, thank you. Unfortunately, I don’t have evidence of an actual itinerary, unless what I wrote down in a private group chat counts as evidence.

I shall pursue it anyways to see what happens. I’m looking to see what they say on the outbound delay caused by the strikes/engineering works, as well as the on-the-day LNER delay.

Fermiboson said:

I see, thank you. Unfortunately, I don’t have evidence of an actual itinerary, unless what I wrote down in a private group chat counts as evidence

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Did you book each ticket as a separate 'journey'?

If you used our site and booked it as a through journey, from the point at which your Rover was valid until, I would be happy to arrange for some additional assistance to be provided.

Fermiboson said:

I shall pursue it anyways to see what happens. I’m looking to see what they say on the outbound delay caused by the strikes/engineering works, as well as the on-the-day LNER delay.

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Was the outbound delay over an hour? If not, there is no statutory right to compensation.

To be honest I'd write to XC service, making it clear and concise, asking if they would consider a goodwill gesture on the basis of both outward and return being disrupted.

yorkie said:

Did you book each ticket as a separate 'journey'?

If you used our site and booked it as a through journey, from the point at which your Rover was valid until, I would be happy to arrange for some additional assistance to be provided.

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I didn’t, unfortunately, as I found it a bit difficult to fiddle with the legs of journeys concerned and I already knew the split from experience. I had some issues with ferry connections I needed to sort out for an earlier journey so I went to the physical ticket office as I needed to anyways.

yorkie said:

Was the outbound delay over an hour? If not, there is no statutory right to compensation.

To be honest I'd write to XC service, making it clear and concise, asking if they would consider a goodwill gesture on the basis of both outward and return being disrupted.

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Ah. I think I’ve worded my email poorly. We’ll see.

The delay was four minutes short though I think the change at Nuneaton was below MCT.

Update: XC have written back, stating that no money is due for anything because they've advised people not to travel on the day. I'm sure there are several legal and technical flaws you could have found with the way I worded my first email, but this is definitely not it.

I'm going to pursue the 11 pounds for the LNER delay... and nicely ask for the other 11.

Fermiboson said:

Update: XC have written back, stating that no money is due for anything because they've advised people not to travel on the day. I'm sure there are several legal and technical flaws you could have found with the way I worded my first email, but this is definitely not it.

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This is complete bunkum of course - advising people not to travel doesn't in any way alter their contractual obligations. In fact, because the whole thing was due to a XC-specific strike (even if called off at the 11th hour) I'd say there is a strong argument for a Consumer Rights Act claim even if Delay Repay were said not to apply.