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Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

amazon1675

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Random thought.If the Waterloo-Reading route was to become a TfL controlled service,could they recruit and train new drivers for the 701s under new terms and conditions,and just by-pass the stalemate? I presume ASLEF members are quite happy to drive similar units eslewhere. Failing that,remove the pay bonus for doing something the 701 staff are clearly not doing!
 
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ConnorP

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Random thought.If the Waterloo-Reading route was to become a TfL controlled service,could they recruit and train new drivers for the 701s under new terms and conditions,and just by-pass the stalemate? I presume ASLEF members are quite happy to drive similar units eslewhere. Failing that,remove the pay bonus for doing something the 701 staff are clearly not doing!
This wouldn't end the stalemate - when TfL take over other routes, any staff who TUPE over will retain their pre-existing contract, unless they are 'incentivised' to sign a new one.

Simply put, this is ASLEF simply trying to gain some sweeteners before agreeing to drive 701s, and this will occur regardless of if DfT/SWR/TfL control the route.
 

Wolfie

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Random thought.If the Waterloo-Reading route was to become a TfL controlled service,could they recruit and train new drivers for the 701s under new terms and conditions,and just by-pass the stalemate? I presume ASLEF members are quite happy to drive similar units eslewhere. Failing that,remove the pay bonus for doing something the 701 staff are clearly not doing!
As l understand it the 701s have a different cab to other members of the Aventura family. As such how "similar" they are is an interesting question.
 

Mainsideman

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Not strictly true. SWR insisted that metro guards would have no involvement in despatch at all when the dispute ended, RMT have agreed to some degraded despatch during the soft launch, but if the grade are expected to fulfil degraded despatch on a permanent basis, as well as close the doors in the event of a stop short door release or to keep their key on when a starting signal is at red, they’re (rightly or wrongly) seeking to be compensated for that.

The trains aren’t particularly suitable for guard dispatch as there’s no safe refuge for a safe view of the platform / train interface in the event the train is crush loaded, and even then the saloon panels are diagonally opposite which presents issues when the train is busy.

Oddly the impression I got was that the RMT now want nothing to do with the doors on 701s, and if they are required to be involved, would require various changes or issues and scenarios ironed out. This is my own conclusion and is in no way official just me speculating and theorising, and should not be taken as union bashing etc.
I believe the degraded dispatch is permanent and is agreed for full role out? as their was previously dates as to when degraded dispatch would end. Ive been told its now got no end date and is permanent? Again this could be wrong
 

pompeyfan

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I believe the degraded dispatch is permanent and is agreed for full role out? as their was previously dates as to when degraded dispatch would end. Ive been told its now got no end date and is permanent? Again this could be wrong

You may well be right. Like I say, I was only speculating after things I’d read / been told. We shall see.
 

Towers

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Not strictly true. SWR insisted that metro guards would have no involvement in despatch at all when the dispute ended, RMT have agreed to some degraded despatch during the soft launch, but if the grade are expected to fulfil degraded despatch on a permanent basis, as well as close the doors in the event of a stop short door release or to keep their key on when a starting signal is at red, they’re (rightly or wrongly) seeking to be compensated for that.

The trains aren’t particularly suitable for guard dispatch as there’s no safe refuge for a safe view of the platform / train interface in the event the train is crush loaded, and even then the saloon panels are diagonally opposite which presents issues when the train is busy.

Oddly the impression I got was that the RMT now want nothing to do with the doors on 701s, and if they are required to be involved, would require various changes or issues and scenarios ironed out. This is my own conclusion and is in no way official just me speculating and theorising, and should not be taken as union bashing etc.
Some interesting stuff there; is there actually some suggestion somewhere that guards are to be expected to key into a door panel if a platform starting signal is displaying danger, merely to prevent their driver from attempting dispatch? That would be, to put it mildly, a rather irregular way of going about things!
 
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I believe the degraded dispatch is permanent and is agreed for full role out? as their was previously dates as to when degraded dispatch would end. Ive been told its now got no end date and is permanent? Again this could be wrong
Wow what a massive waste of time the entire DCO programme was then (if this is true)
 

Mainsideman

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Som

Some interesting stuff there; is there actually some suggestion somewhere that guards are to be expected to key into a door panel if a platform starting signal is displaying danger, merely to prevent their driver from attempting dispatch? That would be, to put it mildly, a rather irregular way of going about things!
guard has to key on at every station anyway and check the platform
 

DelW

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Wow what a massive waste of time the entire DCO programme was then (if this is true)
A vast amount of someone's money has been squandered on building this large fleet of apparently useless trains, and parking and moving them around the country for years on end. So far the whole lot has carried a handful of passengers at times which pointlessly duplicate existing services.

I have a nasty feeling that taxpayers must be funding it all, otherwise heads would have rolled long ago. SWR's empty suits presumably just see it as free "Government money" and help themselves to as much as they can, without putting any effort into actually using these trains. See also class 442 and class 458/4 for more ways SWR has found to waste other people's money.
 

45076

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I still don't get why the 701 is being slagged off as useless when it is effectively a 345/710/720/730. In my humble opinion (and its just an opinion) the problem isn't the trains but the shambolic management of SWR.
 

DelW

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Well, they *are* useless to passengers because SWR is unwilling or unable to use more than one of them at a time! There's been much speculation as to why, but regardless, the end result is that passengers are stuck with overcrowded, short formed and/or inappropriate stock on SWR services while these trains sit deteriorating in storage sidings all round the country.

A train that is four or so years old and has never carried a passenger meets my definition of useless.
 
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I still don't get why the 701 is being slagged off as useless when it is effectively a 345/710/720/730. In my humble opinion (and its just an opinion) the problem isn't the trains but the shambolic management of SWR.
I think they're great trains and a huge step forward but then again they can't be a huge step forward until they actually step outside of the what seems like endless sidings these trains are stored at
 

Stephen42

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Feltham is just stabling IIRC (and maybe tanking?) but no heavy maintenance which will presumably be done at Wimbledon. With hindsight I wonder if Feltham was actually needed at all given how much rolling stock SWR has offloaded post pandemic.

Given the very limited mileage these current units are doing it would seem sensible to come up with a plan to stable them at Feltham - I can't imagine there is much need for heavy maintenance on the 701 fleet currently.
Feltham only has 10 sidings and 10 trains leave in the morning peak. While it might be possible to rearrange diagrams to start elsewhere leaving them stabled at Feltham requires special trips for maintenance whereas trains in regular service will naturally cycle to maintenance points. I wouldn't expect them to stay at Feltham until they are working regular diagrams on the Windsor line.
 

Sun Chariot

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Annoyingly, the soundbound drag - 5Q75 - was only recorded as cancelled (on RTT) two hours after itts booked arrival into Marchwood.
I was there this morning, to capture NR track inspection unit on the branch - but I needed to head off before 5Q78's early afternoon departure from Marchwood.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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A vast amount of someone's money has been squandered on building this large fleet of apparently useless trains, and parking and moving them around the country for years on end. So far the whole lot has carried a handful of passengers at times which pointlessly duplicate existing services.

I have a nasty feeling that taxpayers must be funding it all, otherwise heads would have rolled long ago. SWR's empty suits presumably just see it as free "Government money" and help themselves to as much as they can, without putting any effort into actually using these trains. See also class 442 and class 458/4 for more ways SWR has found to waste other people's money.
Indeed its farcical. Given SE took on the the 707's and got their drivers trained up without issue I would just transfer the 701 fleet to SE and revoke the DCO agreement with ASLEF and they can have their driver and guard railway on the old rates.
 
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I would just transfer the 701 fleet to SE and revoke the DCO agreement with ASLEF and they can have their driver and guard railway on the old rates.
And then what does SWR do? All these passengers have been promised these new trains since the start of the franchise. It's a ridiculous argument to make
 

Wolfie

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Indeed its farcical. Given SE took on the the 707's and got their drivers trained up without issue I would just transfer the 701 fleet to SE and revoke the DCO agreement with ASLEF and they can have their driver and guard railway on the old rates.
That rather assumes that ASLEF members at Southeastern would assist in screwing their SWR counterparts over....
 

WombleGuard

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Internal job vacancies for '701 driver trainers' were published last week.

One of the apparent issues with Guards doing doors now is that on a full and standing train the Guard can only be in the rear cab (of the 10 car units). This would mean the installation of CCTV screens at the 10 car position on several platforms as they are located at coach 4/5 and 8/9 positions currently
 

Snow1964

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One of the apparent issues with Guards doing doors now is that on a full and standing train the Guard can only be in the rear cab (of the 10 car units). This would mean the installation of CCTV screens at the 10 car position on several platforms as they are located at coach 4/5 and 8/9 positions currently
Surely that only means additional screens showing same images, not additional cameras.

Not going to be much difference if viewing it from car 10 instead of car 9. The important part (regarding screens) is the part of the train that can't easily be seen (front and middle), not the bit nearest where guard is at that will be done visually, not by checking a screen.

Alternatively they could avoid having full and standing trains by making everything 10car, or upping frequency as per the 2017 franchise commitments (ie sort problem at source, rather than design a system to cope with undesirable option). Or simply have platform staff at busy times.

EDIT has now occurred to me that even cheaper to simply move the 8/9 car monitors to 10car position, and as you do each one, simply alter the 8car stop back 2car lengths. The 8car stops won't be needed soon (and few places where 450s will continue to work alongside could easily have solution for both)
 
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nick parish

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Not strictly true. SWR insisted that metro guards would have no involvement in despatch at all when the dispute ended, RMT have agreed to some degraded despatch during the soft launch, but if the grade are expected to fulfil degraded despatch on a permanent basis, as well as close the doors in the event of a stop short door release or to keep their key on when a starting signal is at red, they’re (rightly or wrongly) seeking to be compensated for that.

The trains aren’t particularly suitable for guard dispatch as there’s no safe refuge for a safe view of the platform / train interface in the event the train is crush loaded, and even then the saloon panels are diagonally opposite which presents issues when the train is busy.

Oddly the impression I got was that the RMT now want nothing to do with the doors on 701s, and if they are required to be involved, would require various changes or issues and scenarios ironed out. This is my own conclusion and is in no way official just me speculating and theorising, and should not be taken as union bashing etc.
As an Epsom resident, we had our MPs regular updated emailed yesterday. One of the issues he addressess is overcrowding on the Waterloo bound services, particularly from Worcester Park, explaining that he is pushng for more services but stock shortage prevents this until the 701 introduction. He writes:

'At the moment the issue is that they do not have enough rolling stock to increase the number of services. The new ten coach trains have been delivered, but the company has not yet been able to reach an agreement with the unions to use them. Very frustrating. And the passengers suffer. When and if this gets resolved, the first new trains will go onto the Windsor line, but SWR have promised to make extra capacity available on our line at that time. In the meantime I am pushing them at least to reorganise their existing fleet to get a couple of ten coach services into the morning peak for the time being. I will keep you updated'.

Now he is a consrvative, and was, I believe, Transport Secretary at the time of the award to SWR, nut given he says he has recently met with SWR I assume what he says is the case.
 
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Could it perhaps have something to do with the fact they had been in service previously?
Indeed - I should imagine SWR shared training packages/material with SE to enable them to revise it to make any adjustments for SE’s own policies. This in itself would save a huge amount of time vs. SE having to write their own training plan for the 707s from scratch!

As an Epsom resident, we had our MPs regular updated emailed yesterday. One of the issues he addressess is overcrowding on the Waterloo bound services, particularly from Worcester Park, explaining that he is pushng for more services but stock shortage prevents this until the 701 introduction. He writes:

'At the moment the issue is that they do not have enough rolling stock to increase the number of services. The new ten coach trains have been delivered, but the company has not yet been able to reach an agreement with the unions to use them. Very frustrating. And the passengers suffer. When and if this gets resolved, the first new trains will go onto the Windsor line, but SWR have promised to make extra capacity available on our line at that time. In the meantime I am pushing them at least to reorganise their existing fleet to get a couple of ten coach services into the morning peak for the time being. I will keep you updated'.

Now he is a consrvative, and was, I believe, Transport Secretary at the time of the award to SWR, nut given he says he has recently met with SWR I assume what he says is the case.
Ahhh Failing Grayling?

It really does feel as though the line south of Raynes Park to Dorking/Guildford just gets forgotten. So many of the train you see are rammed even outside of peak times. There’s at least one service on a Sunday that’s a 4-car and is one I avoided by checking Real Time Trains as to attempt to board it is madness.

If, and when, the 701s get deployed to the Windsor lines fully I really hope SWR can reinstate 4tph on the Epsom line. It’s sorely needed!
 

norbitonflyer

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Internal job vacancies for '701 driver trainers' were published last week.
Shouldn't they have done that five years ago?

The text could be read as meaning they have 701 vacancies, which would seem rather a lot for a total fleet of only 400 units (about 200 trains)!
 

PG

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has now occurred to me that even cheaper to simply move the 8/9 car monitors to 10car position, and as you do each one, simply alter the 8car stop back 2car lengths.
Not so sure it'd be a quick process to get monitors moved as wouldn't that be a NR responsibility, presumably in conjunction with SWR to ensure they are in a useable position? Hopefully someone with actual industry knowledge will be along to enlighten us!
 

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