• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

The Social Railway - Don't InterCity operators have such responsibilities too? XC bosses in particular, I'm thinking of you.

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
3,699
As many in here know, back in the late 1960s, post Beeching, it was realised that some loss-making rail lines should be saved on "social" grounds. The good citizens of places like Beccles and Builth (Rd), Barnstaple and Brora needed and deserved a rail service, despite the fact that these services would never pay their way and despite the fact that such locations didn't really produce significant passenger numbers as a percentage of the whole.

InterCity services were different. They could and should pay their way, so the philosophy went, even if that wasn't always possible in practice. BR didn't always adhere strictly to the profit rules, but they did try to improve services. And one set of routes in particular, namely what became the XC franchise, benefitted greatly. Many direct journeys that nobody would have dreamed of in 1968 became available in the 80s and 90s, and frequently to boot - linking places like Brighton, Bournemouth and Plymouth to Birmingham, Lancashire, the north-east and Scotland.

Fast forward to today, and I read in here that the today's XC bosses are cutting Chesterfield stops out on the grounds that trains are over crowded. I mean, Chesterfield? It's a serious place, and as others have noted, a far easier place to change trains than Sheffield (particularly for the likes of Nottingham passengers - Nottingham being a major city with relatively poor rail services for its size).

And these cuts come after some severe pruning and cut backs to CrossCountry services over the years, with places like Solihull and Gloucester (to the South West) dropped from the timetables.

There's always an excuse of course - typically "too many using the stop for local commutes" - and the justification that "passengers can easily change at XYZ just up the line".

Of course, we can't go directly from everywhere to everywhere, and maybe the Ramsgate to (was it Birmingham? I forget) was a service too many, and stopping at Aschurch just does cost too much time on Cardiff - Nottingham trains.

XC management in particular seem to be particularly adept at slimming down their services to cherry pick only the most important, premier cities, look at their profit and loss account, take their annual bonuses and put their feet up,

Meanwhile while pax from the likes of Chesterfield (and Nottingham) can shut up and change at Sheffield, go by road or go to hell.

InterCity services also serve social needs - or should do - but it seems to me this aspect is not considered properly. Yet far more passengers are affected, and put off travelling by train by cutting out the likes of Gloucester, Solihull and Chesterfield over the course of a year than use Builth Rd or Beccles in a decade.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
13,439
Location
Bristol
XC management in particular seem to be particularly adept at slimming down their services to cherry pick only the most important, premier cities, look at their profit and loss account, take their annual bonuses and put their feet up,
I feel your anger might be better directed at Horseferry Road in London than XC in Birmingham.
InterCity services also serve social needs - or should do - but it seems to me this aspect is not considered properly. Yet far more passengers are affected, and put off travelling by train by cutting out the likes of Gloucester, Solihull and Chesterfield over the course of a year than use Builth Rd or Beccles in a decade.
Equally, many passengers are better served by skipping these stations. Especially Gloucester, with the extra dwell of reversal and additional conflicts at the station throat. Gloucester should either have a loop built to the west of the town or a southern parkway/interchange station built as I suspect XC would quite like to pick up the extra revenue between Bristol and Gloucester and Gloucester and Birmingham, the trains aren't too busy south of Birmingham except on Cheltenham race days.
 

Topological

Member
Joined
20 Feb 2023
Messages
772
Location
Swansea
As Nottingham does not have any trains which terminate at Chesterfield, I am confused about the issue here.

Going North on XC Sheffield works, the train from Nottingham will necessarily be in front of the XC and therefore must remain so into Sheffield.
Going South on XC would be Derby for the connection anyway.

There are a lot of ways in which XC could be better, but managing capacity by making short local trips harder seems sensible from the outside.
 

Adrian1980uk

Member
Joined
24 May 2016
Messages
499
This must be the only industry in the world that decides they don't want customers as they cause overcrowding rather than take on the challenge of adding more capacity to enable extra customers
 

Deafdoggie

Established Member
Joined
29 Sep 2016
Messages
3,101
Times change. I'm not sure "social railway" is still an argument 60 years later.

This must be the only industry in the world that decides they don't want customers as they cause overcrowding rather than take on the challenge of adding more capacity to enable extra customers
Everything (stock & infrastructure) is so expensive. Other industries are adept at cutting costs. The railways are not..knowing the tax payer has always bailed them out in the past. The political appetite for this has now dwindled away (from all political persuasions)
 

Topological

Member
Joined
20 Feb 2023
Messages
772
Location
Swansea
This must be the only industry in the world that decides they don't want customers as they cause overcrowding rather than take on the challenge of adding more capacity to enable extra customers
Don't all capacity-limited businesses work in this way?

Most businesses with limited capacity just flex prices to ensure that they can sell their capacity and then do not offer any other items for sale. This is as close as XC are doing because XC cannot flext prices on a demand management basis.

Possibly something like the Glastonbury Festival is a bit more "social" in that they try to make the price more accessible than it would be to simply charge the profit maximising price, but even so they do not do the equivalent of "adding Chesterfield stops" or "extending the trains" by creating more capacity or major capital investment on double decked camping fields.
 

tram21

Member
Joined
29 Dec 2022
Messages
148
Location
Nottingham
a far easier place to change trains than Sheffield (particularly for the likes of Nottingham passengers - Nottingham being a major city with relatively poor rail services for its size).
As someone from Nottingham I am a bit confused about this- I would never change at Chesterfield for a train and would always go to Sheffield or Derby (most likely Derby). The only reason you change trains in that area is:
1) for TPE to Cleethorpes (or Liverpool, but EMR go there direct) (only at Sheffield)
2) For XC to the North (could be possible at Chesterfield, but since this is likely going to be before a bigger trip, making use of the facilities and proximity to the city at Sheffield, everyone would go to Sheffield) (Trains to Derby are better than that of Sheffield from Nottingham, so most people would change at Derby for XC)
3) for Northern local services (only from Sheffield)

So basically there is no reason why we would ever get off at Chesterfield, and speeding up journeys would benefit Nottingham, not reduce them.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
13,439
Location
Bristol
This must be the only industry in the world that decides they don't want customers as they cause overcrowding rather than take on the challenge of adding more capacity to enable extra customers
Have a look at ticket prices for any major music or sporting event!
Times change. I'm not sure "social railway" is still an argument 60 years later.
The social railway still has it's place, but intercity services are not really under that banner.
 

Magdalia

Established Member
Joined
1 Jan 2022
Messages
3,049
Location
The Fens
InterCity services were different. They could and should pay their way, so the philosophy went, even if that wasn't always possible in practice. BR didn't always adhere strictly to the profit rules, but they did try to improve services. And one set of routes in particular, namely what became the XC franchise, benefitted greatly. Many direct journeys that nobody would have dreamed of in 1968 became available in the 80s and 90s, and frequently to boot - linking places like Brighton, Bournemouth and Plymouth to Birmingham, Lancashire, the north-east and Scotland.

Fast forward to today, and I read in here that the today's XC bosses are cutting Chesterfield stops out on the grounds that trains are over crowded. I mean, Chesterfield? It's a serious place, and as others have noted, a far easier place to change trains than Sheffield (particularly for the likes of Nottingham passengers - Nottingham being a major city with relatively poor rail services for its size).
In the post 1968 era not every cross country train called at Chesterfield. Taking the 1976 timetable as an example, there were 13 roughly hourly trains in each direction on the Birmingham-Derby-Sheffield axis. Of these 8 in each direction called at Chesterfield and 5 in each direction went through Chesterfield without stopping.

This must be the only industry in the world that decides they don't want customers as they cause overcrowding rather than take on the challenge of adding more capacity to enable extra customers
When supply is inelastic, and/or when there is an effective monopoly, the incentive is to raise prices. Increasing capacity costs a lot and can't be done quickly.
 
Last edited:

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,475
This also applies to Winchester and Basingstoke, and was already being discussed in the timetables forum here:

Is Chesterfield also only being altered on Summer Saturdays?
 
Joined
29 Sep 2010
Messages
175
This must be the only industry in the world that decides they don't want customers as they cause overcrowding rather than take on the challenge of adding more capacity to enable extra customers
It would help if passengers could spread themselves out a bit. All those people crowding into Euston on a Friday afternoon, when there are trains carting fresh air in the Highlands, are hardly helping matters.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,002
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Have a look at ticket prices for any major music or sporting event!

The social railway still has it's place, but intercity services are not really under that banner.

The trouble in the UK is that we don't have fully segregated regional and intercity operations. It would take some investment to set things up so we can - maybe with such diverging markets (with regional heading towards contactless and intercity towards airline style pricing) we should spend that money. It would require a fair bit of gap plugging, e.g. First North Western's proposal for a Crewe to Carlisle service would have to happen, as on that route Avanti provides the main local service.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
13,439
Location
Bristol
The trouble in the UK is that we don't have fully segregated regional and intercity operations. It would take some investment to set things up so we can - maybe with such diverging markets (with regional heading towards contactless and intercity towards airline style pricing) we should spend that money. It would require a fair bit of gap plugging, e.g. First North Western's proposal for a Crewe to Carlisle service would have to happen, as on that route Avanti provides the main local service.
Largely agree. Proper 3 tiers of local, regional and IC trains (as a lot of continental Europe has) would be very good. There are areas where this does happen (Southern WCML comes to mind) but plenty of areas where it emphatically does not (Yorkshire). IC can continue to move towards the airline style pricing and Regionals can fill the gap for people who prefer cheaper or more flexible trains.
 

geoffk

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2010
Messages
3,266
Largely agree. Proper 3 tiers of local, regional and IC trains (as a lot of continental Europe has) would be very good. There are areas where this does happen (Southern WCML comes to mind) but plenty of areas where it emphatically does not (Yorkshire). IC can continue to move towards the airline style pricing and Regionals can fill the gap for people who prefer cheaper or more flexible trains.
Difficult to achieve though on a double track railway for journeys like Chippenham - Bath, Penrith - Carlisle or Retford - Doncaster.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
13,439
Location
Bristol
Difficult to achieve though on a double track railway for journeys like Chippenham - Bath, Penrith - Carlisle or Retford - Doncaster.
Difficult yes, but that's why it requires investment and effort by people both in and around the industry.
 

SynthD

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2020
Messages
1,169
Location
UK
I think the point implied above needs to be stressed. This is a politicians decision. Bosses of the brands do not make decisions like this.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
13,439
Location
Bristol
Something like Eastgate perhaps !
Eastgate would still be a problem today even if it had survived, as the loop was rather tight and through the middle of the town. No, I'm thinking of a line diverging pretty much immediately north of Standish Jn (where the Swindon/Yate lines merge) then swinging west around the town to a new junction on the far side of the Severn.
However the BCR for such a loop would be somewhat pants and I would instead focus my energy on a station serving the south end of town.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,726
Location
Mold, Clwyd
This must be the only industry in the world that decides they don't want customers as they cause overcrowding rather than take on the challenge of adding more capacity to enable extra customers
BR used to do that all the time.
There are finite limits on what TOCs can do to add capacity within their cost limits set by the DfT.
More Voyagers are now on the way to XC.
 
Last edited:

185

Established Member
Joined
29 Aug 2010
Messages
5,016
All intercity operators currently stop at top many nondescript places with passenger numbers that do not warrant most if not all express trains stopping, and have plenty of alternatives more suited to the often 10-20 minute journey most of their passengers make.

Stockport Bolton Wilmslow Macclesfield Lea Green Dewsbury Huddersfield Newton le Willows Milton Keynes Wolverhampton Coventry Reading...
and many, many more.

The primary income is city to city hence intercity. The government £Xbn plan for a 30 minute journey Liverpool Manchester is already achievable on TP if Lea Green & Newton le Willows are ditched and a semi fast calls there instead.

Everyone wants all trains to call at their local lamppost however govt should draw a line and speed up our fastest tier of trains.
 

The exile

Established Member
Joined
31 Mar 2010
Messages
2,752
Location
Somerset
Difficult yes, but that's why it requires investment and effort by people both in and around the industry.
Be careful what you wish for - what it might mean (using the Chippenham - Bath example) is one IC per hour simply missing out the Chippenham stop or being removed entirely to accommodate a Didcot - Bristol stopper.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
13,439
Location
Bristol
Be careful what you wish for - what it might mean (using the Chippenham - Bath example) is one IC per hour simply missing out the Chippenham stop or being removed entirely to accommodate a Didcot - Bristol stopper.
Again, hence the 'investment' and 'effort'. Don't just take the easy answers. A good start would be putting wires up all the way to Temple Meads so that stoppers can be run with EMUs to take advantage of their better acceleration, and IETs can use the pan all the way into Bristol.

In a nutshell, how many, and when by?
12 Sets announced, not sure when but presume after Avanti get their 805s.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,475
In a nutshell, how many, and when by?
Was going to be 7 to replace the HST capacity, it’s since been increased to 12, but it’s been discussed at length in quite a few threads now. It’s not going to be quick though, I’d be surprised if they all arrive by late 2025.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,002
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Stockport is the Parkway station for leafy, rich South Manchester and North Cheshire, and for London trains often loads more passengers than Piccadilly. I fear someone is a little misinformed and is blindly picking stations from a map.

The vast majority of journeys are suburb to city centre, not city centre to city centre, and this needs to be recognised.
 

Wilts Wanderer

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2016
Messages
2,500
All intercity operators currently stop at top many nondescript places with passenger numbers that do not warrant most if not all express trains stopping, and have plenty of alternatives more suited to the often 10-20 minute journey most of their passengers make.

Stockport Bolton Wilmslow Macclesfield Lea Green Dewsbury Huddersfield Newton le Willows Milton Keynes Wolverhampton Coventry Reading...
and many, many more.

The primary income is city to city hence intercity. The government £Xbn plan for a 30 minute journey Liverpool Manchester is already achievable on TP if Lea Green & Newton le Willows are ditched and a semi fast calls there instead.

Everyone wants all trains to call at their local lamppost however govt should draw a line and speed up our fastest tier of trains.

The fact you include Stockport, Huddersfield and Reading (!!!) in this list suggests you don’t have a firm grasp of the importance of interchanges as part of a coherent national network.
 

185

Established Member
Joined
29 Aug 2010
Messages
5,016
Stockport is the Parkway station for leafy, rich South Manchester and North Cheshire, and for London trains often loads more passengers than Piccadilly. I fear someone is a little misinformed and is blindly picking stations from a map.

The vast majority of journeys are suburb to city centre, not city centre to city centre, and this needs to be recognised.
Stockport has all three Euston trains calling there but with a Piccadilly to Stockport ratio of between 5 & 6:1.

Does not justify ALL calling there and Beardie agreed with this years ago.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,002
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
The fact you include Stockport, Huddersfield and Reading (!!!) in this list suggests you don’t have a firm grasp of the importance of interchanges as part of a coherent national network.

Nor of Parkway stations and how most journeys are in fact not city centre to city centre.

Stockport has all three Euston trains calling there but with a Piccadilly to Stockport ratio of 6:1.

Does not justify ALL calling there and Beardie agreed with this years ago.

It absolutely does. Sounds like you've never been there. At times it's busier than Piccadilly.
 

ChrisC

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2018
Messages
1,624
Location
Nottinghamshire
As someone from Nottingham I am a bit confused about this- I would never change at Chesterfield for a train and would always go to Sheffield or Derby (most likely Derby). The only reason you change trains in that area is:
1) for TPE to Cleethorpes (or Liverpool, but EMR go there direct) (only at Sheffield)
2) For XC to the North (could be possible at Chesterfield, but since this is likely going to be before a bigger trip, making use of the facilities and proximity to the city at Sheffield, everyone would go to Sheffield) (Trains to Derby are better than that of Sheffield from Nottingham, so most people would change at Derby for XC)
3) for Northern local services (only from Sheffield)

So basically there is no reason why we would ever get off at Chesterfield, and speeding up journeys would benefit Nottingham, not reduce them.
I very much disagree with you. For travel from Nottingham with connections to/from XC services to the NE and Edinburgh, Chesterfield is a much easier and more convenient station to change at than Sheffield. The main advantage of changing at Chesterfield, especially for those with luggage, families with children and the less mobile, it is a same platform connection. Changing trains in Sheffield usually means having to get over the bridge to another platform.

There are always large numbers of passengers joining and leaving XC trains at Sheffield which can usually be seen with the crowds of people standing at the doors of Voyagers waiting to board. If Nottingham passengers change at Chesterfield, plus all the people from huge catchment area that Chesterfield has, which includes many people from the south side of Sheffield, it relieves the pressure on the platform at Sheffield. Before Chesterfield stops were significantly cut back during Covid journey planners almost always directed Nottingham passengers to change at Chesterfield for the NE and Edinburgh.

I understand the problem of passengers using XC trains for the short journey between Chesterfield and Sheffield but many long distance passengers also prefer the convenience of Chesterfield with its easier road access and large car park.
 

Top