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TFW Advance Tickets - South Wales to Manchester

paul1609

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I've noticed it as well on the Crewe - Manchester flow. Previously you could get tickets for £4-£5 each way. But looking at the first Sunday in June where tickets have been released and it's £10 each way* (so for anybody making a return they will be better off buying an off-peak day return so TfW gets less money, as whom will pay 10p less than any permitted for a 'TfW only ticket' when the saving was more like £5 it was worth restricting yourself to the hourly TfW service.

Prices like that will just push passengers to using the Northern stopper, longer journey time but a bigger saving.

*Even on the first train of the day from Crewe which in my experience is quite lightly loaded
Ive split my journey at Crewe using the LNWR Trent Valley service for some years but normally buy an all operator ticket on the next leg because both the TFW and Northern services are inheritantly unreliable. Last Sunday my Manchester to Crewe northern service was just cancelled no reason given. The next Northern train was 17 mins late which threatened the connection to the Euston train the difference between the advance and the flexible fare isnt worth the hassle imho.
I'm not sure that I regard the £115 "anytime" off peak return expensive for a 360 return trip (coincidentally almost the same as Paddington from Neath).
 
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Jez

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I see that on Sundays, you can go from Neath (dep 10.44) to Manchester on a Mk4 train with 5 coaches.

Here is the service today:> https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P64611/2024-04-21/detailed#allox_id=0
Yes. But its a bit of a lottery whether a MK4 turns up. Last Sunday this service was a 2 car 150! Ouch!

They're also not complaining about it - i.e. most people have absolutely no opinion / are completely neutral to these fares. Most just want the cheapest fare for the journey they have in mind.

People are happy to save anything at all - whether it's pence or pounds.

If I'm buying a single ticket, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to get a particular train, why wouldn't I want to select the cheapest ticket, even if it's just a few pence?
Could also say why pay an extra 20p when i have more flexibility to get whatever train I choose. If something happened on the day and i needed to go later for example. I wouldnt have that with an advance.

Most people do indeed want the cheaper fare possible which is why its a shame the advances which used to be such a cheap price are more expensive now.
 

Watershed

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They're also not complaining about it - i.e. most people have absolutely no opinion / are completely neutral to these fares. Most just want the cheapest fare for the journey they have in mind.

People are happy to save anything at all - whether it's pence or pounds.

If I'm buying a single ticket, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to get a particular train, why wouldn't I want to select the cheapest ticket, even if it's just a few pence?
Put it the other way around - if you told people that "for 10p extra, you can take any train after 09:30" (or whenever), the vast majority of people would pay it. So people aren't looking for the absolute cheapest option - they are looking for the best value option. If 10p became £10, the rate of uptake would be far lower.

Talking about Crewe -> Manchester journeys, walk up TOC restricted tickets which are sometimes priced at just 10p or 20p less than the Any Permitted alternative, or are sometimes exactly the same, such as the £16.50 "route Avanti" Off Peak Day Return, are, IMHO, a scam.
Absolutely agreed. Especially since Avanti don't run any trains at all on that route after the 19:55 from Piccadilly.
 

Hadders

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Put it the other way around - if you told people that "for 10p extra, you can take any train after 09:30" (or whenever), the vast majority of people would pay it. So people aren't looking for the absolute cheapest option - they are looking for the best value option. If 10p became £10, the rate of uptake would be far lower.
Absolutely this. People also value the frequency of trains and many don't understand that an Advance ticket can only be used on a specific booked train.

On my local line between Stevenage and Kings Cross we have the farcical situation of LNER Advance fares and LNER only fares. Why the hell is the rail industry offering train specific tickets on a service where there are up to 10 trains an hour. I bet that almost everyone purchasing one of these tickets doesn't realise it isn't a flexible ticket.
 

mangyiscute

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Were talking about the left wing Welsh Labour Government here, of course. Do you feel a Labour UK Government would do anything different?
Unfortunately no, labour is not really left-wing, they are more central, and i fear they won't change much about the railways to try and dig it out of its current awful state of affairs.
 

Jez

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many don't understand that an Advance ticket can only be used on a specific booked train.
I dont understand why people find the concept of advance tickets so difficult to understand. It says quite clearly it is only valid on the booked train and you must not start, end or break and resume your journey at any point other than to use valid connecting trains.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Unfortunately no, labour is not really left-wing, they are more central, and i fear they won't change much about the railways to try and dig it out of its current awful state of affairs.
The issue really is that the Treasury/DfT has a set budget for rail and the sector is still underperforming against pre-Covid growth expectations.
Labour (UK) will inherit the same difficult budget setup, and can only change it by robbing another sector or raising taxes, which it won't.
Welsh Labour recently forked out an extra £150m for TfW to cover last year's underperformance/higher costs, but will not do the same this year.
There's only one way for fares to go in this scenario (along with some service reductions).
 

mangyiscute

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The issue really is that the Treasury/DfT has a set budget for rail and the sector is still underperforming against pre-Covid growth expectations.
Labour (UK) will inherit the same difficult budget setup, and can only change it by robbing another sector or raising taxes, which it won't.
Welsh Labour recently forked out an extra £150m for TfW to cover last year's underperformance/higher costs, but will not do the same this year.
There's only one way for fares to go in this scenario (along with some service reductions).
That's what the government wants you to believe - let me ask you, how is it that while taxes and borrowing are at among their highest rates in history, we are still struggling to fund the most basic of public services in the UK, and the country is clearly heading backwards.
Plenty of money is being spent in terribly unwise ways, whether that be deliberately (so the politicians can allow themselves and their close companions to profit off of the taxpayers money) or just people making awful decisions and being bad at their jobs, that's another question. But it is clear to me that plenty of money can be saved through far better management of the money that is currently spent.
 

Dai Corner

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Unfortunately no, labour is not really left-wing, they are more central, and i fear they won't change much about the railways to try and dig it out of its current awful state of affairs.
The Welsh Labour Leader under which the fares policy we're discussing was (there's a new leader now) very much from the Corbyn wing of the Party. His Government spent enormous sums on the railways; possibly more than it could afford. Whether this has the desired effect, or is even continued, remains to be seen.

I agree that such a Government would never get elected in the UK Parliament. See the 2019 General Election.
 

gray1404

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Could it be that TfW just hasn't released Advance quota yet for the coming month and will be doing so later then usual? I say this as I see they've not released anything for June time for the Holyhead to Chester line on North Wales either.
 

Mcr Warrior

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Could it be that TfW just hasn't released Advance quota yet for the coming month and will be doing so later then usual? I say this as I see they've not released anything for June time for the Holyhead to Chester line on North Wales either.
Could be, but why, then is the OP talking about advances being available, but apparently just in the more expensive tier bands? (Although, having said that, can't find a £114.40 Anytime return or £57.10 advance single tier available anywhere for a Neath -> Manchester journey - so who's offering them?)
 

Jez

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Could be, but why, then is the OP talking about advances being available, but apparently just in the more expensive tier bands? (Although, having said that, can't find a £114.40 Anytime return or £57.10 advance single tier available anywhere for a Neath -> Manchester journey - so who's offering them?)
I saw them on the TFW website. And yes the advances tend to go in tiers - Id be amazed if all the cheaper prices had sold out as soon as tickets went on there so why are they only putting the highest price tier.

I believe the only other fare available for this journey other than advances is the off peak return which is the same price regardless of whether it is a a day return or return within 1 month.

The price has gone up to £64 now on 24th May 9am and 11am trains, who is going to pay 2 x £64 (£128) which is more expensive than the off peak return.

 
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Hadders

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I dont understand why people find the concept of advance tickets so difficult to understand. It says quite clearly it is only valid on the booked train and you must not start, end or break and resume your journey at any point other than to use valid connecting trains.
Many people do have problems with it, for whatever reason.

My view is part of the reason is when Advance tickets are offered for sale on services that are effectively turn up and go. For example my local line has a fast service to London every 15 minutes. When there is a service every 15 minutes people then think they can get any train - what is point of advertising that trains run 4 times an hour when you can effectively only catch one specific train.
 

mangyiscute

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Many people do have problems with it, for whatever reason.

My view is part of the reason is when Advance tickets are offered for sale on services that are effectively turn up and go. For example my local line has a fast service to London every 15 minutes. When there is a service every 15 minutes people then think they can get any train - what is point of advertising that trains run 4 times an hour when you can effectively only catch one specific train.
I imagine on long distance routes, you get the opposite of people buying flexible tickets but believing them to be booked train only, since for someone used to flying the idea of a ticket that allows you to walk up and take any Glasgow to London train via various routes would be quite surprising, especially when it's not much more expensive in a lot of cases.
However, these people are obviously not penalised and therefore we don't hear anything about it.
If it was up to me, I'd have a small charge (say £5 on short routes up to about £20 on long routes) for people travelling on the wrong train with an advance ticket, along with a clear explanation of the different ticket types - that way anyone doing it as a genuine mistake isn't heavily penalised, but they are incentivised to learn the rules and adhere to them in the future (if you just let them off, they'll take their chances and do it again). Anyone who is caught doing it frequently would then be much more severely punished as that is then clear deliberate rule-breaking. It would also mean if say your bus to the station is super late causing you to miss an advance train (i've been on buses over 30 mins late and missed trains as a result), you could pay a little extra to take a later train, but once again if you did this too frequently then it would seem suspicious.
 

Haywain

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If it was up to me, I'd have a small charge (say £5 on short routes up to about £20 on long routes) for people travelling on the wrong train with an advance ticket,
Is that over the Advance ticket price or the walk-up price? If it's just on the Advance price it could be a better deal than buying a walk-up ticket.

Anyone who is caught doing it frequently would then be much more severely punished as that is then clear deliberate rule-breaking.
Who is keeping records of these people, and how do those widely shared records (as they would need to be) comply with GDPR?
 

mangyiscute

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Is that over the Advance ticket price or the walk-up price? If it's just on the Advance price it could be a better deal than buying a walk-up ticket.
Over the advance fare, although perhaps I would change it to be the difference between the advance ticket and the cheapest walk up fare.
Who is keeping records of these people, and how do those widely shared records (as they would need to be) comply with GDPR?
It would be similar to how things seem to be done currently - most ticket inspectors will happily let someone off once or twice but anyone who they catch more than that they will be harsh on.
 

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