What rolling stock would you order from Hitachi / Alstom

E100 · 21 Apr 2024

Bit of nice speculation thread.

If you had the power to order stock what you order and why.

To kick us off, I’d probably look to extend a lot of LNER IEP’s by an extra coach to 10 and/or then extend some of the 5 coach sets to 9/10.

I’d probably offer Lumo an nearly at cost deal to extend their sets as well.

For Alstom can extend some of the class 720 or 730’s.

Heaven forbid there be some extra space on modern trains!

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JonathanH · 21 Apr 2024

E100 said:
For Alstom can extend some of the class 720 or 730’s.

That isn't going to work, as they wouldn't fit in the platforms, sidings or depots. A plan to build 22 720s as 10 car units was abandoned and the units delivered as 5 car units because the depots couldn't accommodate them.

5 car units can be doubled up. Anything longer can't.

E100 · 21 Apr 2024

Ah of course - good point.

JonathanH · 21 Apr 2024

The other potential plan is to order more centre cars for the 701s to make the fleet stretch to both SWR and Southeastern. By converting the 5 coach units into 8 coach units it could potentially allow them to make inroads into Networkers, and then a further build could be specified to be compatible. Might be enough to get round procurement laws.

Snow1964 · 21 Apr 2024

I would order a regional train. It's the one design that is missing but badly needed. Too big a gulf between local /commuter electric units and Express units.

I am talking a go anywhere train, standard design, whatever part of country it operates in. 5 or 6 cars max 23m long. Seating suitable for 3+ hour journeys, able to cope with churn at at some busy stations. I would go for 110mph on 25kv, but possibly restricted to 90-100mph on third rail or batteries. Able to do 50 miles on batteries comfortably (ie designed for nearer 70 miles on batteries)

Where would I deploy them, just about anywhere. I don't buy into idea that Northern, GWR, Chiltern, Transpennine etc all need their own design of regional train. Maybe different liveries, but not different basic design.

Government (ahead of GBR) needs to issue Framework agreement for upto 500 units (basically to replace all 156, 158, 165, 166, 168 units plus the castle HSTs and release 170s from XC to move to non electrified areas). Talking 2000-2500 vehicles over say 10 years.

DanNCL · 21 Apr 2024

I’m answering solely based on the immediate future. Longer term projects such as new stock for Northern, Southeastern, GWR etc I’ve kept out, realistically all three of those have to go to open tender.

All Alstom would be getting from me would be an order for 10 extra 345s and even that’s only because there’s no realistic alternative.
The quality of the Aventra builds has been poor and Alstom haven’t kept up with the competition. There’s three other companies with UK assembly plants and all build better quality stock. Unless Stadler want to buy it (unlikely), let Derby close.

From Hitachi, I’d order intermediate vehicles to extend all LNER 80xs of all lengths to 10 car. I’d also lengthen the 803s to 10 car. If also using Newton Aycliffe to carry out crack repairs, that should keep them ticking over until the HS2 build starts.

From CAF, in addition to the LNER build I’d also have units of the same design built for Grand Central as a full fleet replacement. The Newport site is small so doesn’t need much to keep it going.

From Siemens, I’d get the Bakerloo line order placed without delay. That’d keep them going for a while.

Ken H · 21 Apr 2024

Snow1964 said:
I would order a regional train. It's the one design that is missing but badly needed. Too big a gulf between local /commuter electric units and Express units.

I am talking a go anywhere train, standard design, whatever part of country it operates in. 5 or 6 cars max 23m long. Seating suitable for 3+ hour journeys, able to cope with churn at at some busy stations. I would go for 110mph on 25kv, but possibly restricted to 90-100mph on third rail or batteries. Able to do 50 miles on batteries comfortably (ie designed for nearer 70 miles on batteries)

Where would I deploy them, just about anywhere. I don't buy into idea that Northern, GWR, Chiltern, Transpennine etc all need their own design of regional train. Maybe different liveries, but not different basic design.

Government (ahead of GBR) needs to issue Framework agreement for upto 500 units (basically to replace all 156, 158, 165, 166, 168 units plus the castle HSTs and release 170s from XC to move to non electrified areas). Talking 2000-2500 vehicles over say 10 years.

I would do the same but have a diesel/electric option. There are many routes where there is simply not enough opportunity charging to make BEMU work (Leeds - Carlisle, South Trans Pennine, N Wales for example). Not convinced Leeds-Harrogate-York would work reliably with BEMUs

BEMU Battery - electric multiple unit

JonathanH · 21 Apr 2024

Haven't there been posts in the past that the Hitachi units can only be built with an odd number of carriages? Does a 10-car 80x fit in the depot, as in can two 5-cars receive attention on one depot road?

DanNCL · 21 Apr 2024

JonathanH said:
Haven't there been posts in the past that the Hitachi units can only be built with an odd number of carriages? Does a 10-car 80x fit in the depot, as in can two 5-cars receive attention on one depot road?

Hitachi will configure them in any requested configuration from 5 to 10 carriages.
395s are 6 car and whilst an older version are still very much the same platform as the 80xs.

43096 · 21 Apr 2024

I'd be exceptionally wary of ordering anything from either of them. Both have a record for serial late delivery of poor quality trains. Hitachi in particular have produced an abysmal product in the 80x fleets - low quality, poor design, high cost, major engineering issues, availability less than should be expected and a corporate attitude that says they don't give a stuff about their customers. Why would you order more from failed manufacturers?

So, I'd go to Siemens and Stadler. Stadler should build all the 15x replacements - the 755 fleet in Anglia has been a step-change in quality for the customer.

Clarence Yard · 21 Apr 2024

Not exactly. Hitachi currently will not give you even numbers of vehicles on 80x sets - it’s the way they have configured the equipment in the cars. You can make 5, 7 or 9 car sets out of an 80x.

Hitachi also are not currently offering extra cars to boost formations. They will sell you more sets but the lead time is long (and the costs are high). They seem to be focussing production in either Japan or Italy, both of which have near full order books.

Minstral25 · 21 Apr 2024

Clarence Yard said:
Not exactly. Hitachi currently will not give you even numbers of vehicles on 80x sets - it’s the way they have configured the equipment in the cars. You can make 5, 7 or 9 car sets out of an 80x.

Hitachi also are not currently offering extra cars to boost formations. They will sell you more sets but the lead time is long (and the costs are high). They seem to be focussing production in either Japan or Italy, both of which have near full order books.

So if they are focussing any new production quotes overseas, perhaps they do not care if Newton Aycliffe closes, as they would rather use Japanese or Italian factories for new orders?

Energy · 21 Apr 2024

Snow1964 said:
I would order a regional train. It's the one design that is missing but badly needed. Too big a gulf between local /commuter electric units and Express units.

I am talking a go anywhere train, standard design, whatever part of country it operates in. 5 or 6 cars max 23m long. Seating suitable for 3+ hour journeys, able to cope with churn at at some busy stations. I would go for 110mph on 25kv, but possibly restricted to 90-100mph on third rail or batteries. Able to do 50 miles on batteries comfortably (ie designed for nearer 70 miles on batteries)

Where would I deploy them, just about anywhere. I don't buy into idea that Northern, GWR, Chiltern, Transpennine etc all need their own design of regional train. Maybe different liveries, but not different basic design.

Government (ahead of GBR) needs to issue Framework agreement for upto 500 units (basically to replace all 156, 158, 165, 166, 168 units plus the castle HSTs and release 170s from XC to move to non electrified areas). Talking 2000-2500 vehicles over say 10 years.

I wouldn't do this. Route should decide the stock and not the other way around.

Chester1 · 21 Apr 2024

Clarence Yard said:
Not exactly. Hitachi currently will not give you even numbers of vehicles on 80x sets - it’s the way they have configured the equipment in the cars. You can make 5, 7 or 9 car sets out of an 80x.

Hitachi also are not currently offering extra cars to boost formations. They will sell you more sets but the lead time is long (and the costs are high). They seem to be focussing production in either Japan or Italy, both of which have near full order books.

How can they complain about lack of work for Newton Aycliffe and then be picky about what they will make? Can they do the HS2 train building in Japan or Italy without breaching contract? If not why wouldn't they want any work available for the period between finishing the EMR order and starting HS2?

My preferred speculative suggestion would be extending the 19 x 802 TPE fleet to 7 coaches. Half a coach of first class and one and a half standard class. Manchester is too congested therefore the focus on Northern and TPE should be on longer units. Seven coaches is the limit for the airport. Oxford Road is six coach max but it is due be rebuilt in next five years and TPE ran some double 350s using SDO.

Topological · 21 Apr 2024

I would order enough bi-mode 80x so that all cross-country trains between the South West / South East and Birmingham could be 80x. I would then make the transition point for trains to the North East Derby. The 80x service would continue to Nottingham, whilst the Voyager operated trains did Derby north. When heading towards Manchester, the new 80x can complete the route.

Freed 22x would go to Grand Central for the Bradford/Sunderland and TfW for Holyhead to Chester/Manchester. In turn freed 197s would allow TfW to meet more of their timetabling pledges.

For Derby, I think only the Elizabeth Line getting more trains is an option. I would see if more could be ordered though.

For more local offerings I feel that the CAF options are good enough.

Chester1 · 21 Apr 2024

Topological said:
I would order enough bi-mode 80x so that all cross-country trains between the South West / South East and Birmingham could be 80x. I would then make the transition point for trains to the North East Derby. The 80x service would continue to Nottingham, whilst the Voyager operated trains did Derby north. When heading towards Manchester, the new 80x can complete the route.

Freed 22x would go to Grand Central for the Bradford/Sunderland and TfW for Holyhead to Chester/Manchester. In turn freed 197s would allow TfW to meet more of their timetabling pledges.

For Derby, I think only the Elizabeth Line getting more trains is an option. I would see if more could be ordered though.

For more local offerings I feel that the CAF options are good enough.

22X are unnecessary and too expensive for TfW. They only need 90-100mph units. They have sufficient fleet to meet their planned timetables but they haven't all arrived and entered service yet. 22X are a good option if GC decide the 180s are too unreliable but they don’t need that many. When the Meridians go off lease there will be an excess of 22X and we don’t need to make it worse by ordering bi modes for XC.

Ken H · 21 Apr 2024

Chester1 said:
22X are unnecessary and too expensive for TfW. They only need 90-100mph units. They have sufficient fleet to meet their planned timetables but they haven't all arrived and entered service yet. 22X are a good option if GC decide the 180s are too unreliable but they don’t need that many. When the Meridians go off lease there will be an excess of 22X and we don’t need to make it worse by ordering bi modes for XC.

Maybe the 22X trains could go abroad. If we can flog HST to Mexico I am sure we can flog these somewhere.

Topological · 21 Apr 2024

Chester1 said:
22X are unnecessary and too expensive for TfW. They only need 90-100mph units. They have sufficient fleet to meet their planned timetables but they haven't all arrived and entered service yet. 22X are a good option if GC decide the 180s are too unreliable but they don’t need that many. When the Meridians go off lease there will be an excess of 22X and we don’t need to make it worse by ordering bi modes for XC.

I think the point is this is a fantasy thread.

TfW are really struggling at the moment and are cancelling parts of their planned timetables. There are services that could run if there was more stock and 22x have run the Holyhead line for Avanti so would be able to continue doing so without further clearances.

First best would be getting TfW more 197, but that doesnt fit this thread.

D365 · 21 Apr 2024

Ken H said:
Maybe the 22X trains could go abroad. If we can flog HST to Mexico I am sure we can flog these somewhere.

Who is ”we”? The vehicles in question are/were privately owned.

Ken H · 21 Apr 2024

D365 said:
Who is ”we”? The vehicles in question are/were privately owned.

'We' as in the UK.

DanNCL · 21 Apr 2024

Clarence Yard said:
Not exactly. Hitachi currently will not give you even numbers of vehicles on 80x sets - it’s the way they have configured the equipment in the cars. You can make 5, 7 or 9 car sets out of an 80x.

Hitachi also are not currently offering extra cars to boost formations. They will sell you more sets but the lead time is long (and the costs are high). They seem to be focussing production in either Japan or Italy, both of which have near full order books.

In other words they’ve made a commercial decision not to make an effort with the UK. In which case they’ve only got themselves to blame when Newton Aycliffe runs out of work and has to close.

Chester1 said:
How can they complain about lack of work for Newton Aycliffe and then be picky about what they will make? Can they do the HS2 train building in Japan or Italy without breaching contract? If not why wouldn't they want any work available for the period between finishing the EMR order and starting HS2?

Exactly, they’ve only got themselves to blame. If they hadn’t been so difficult they might have got a follow on LNER contract, instead that order went to CAF.

If not doing HS2 work at Newton Aycliffe would be a breach of contract then presumably not doing it at Derby would also be a breach of contract, so only one of them would need to close and that’d be contract breached.
Maybe this is what the Sunak government are trying to do, force the abandonment of what’s left of HS2 by allowing the contractors to walk away/default one-by-one… Sceptical I know but we’ve already seen them take an axe to HS2 once, wouldn’t put it past them to do it again, no matter how bad an idea it is!

jagardner1984 · 22 Apr 2024

Isn't the truth of it that whether by direct subsidy or by the orders being controlled from within DfT - there was a political move with the 2015 opening of the Newton Aycliffe facility with a few years of work guaranteed by the scale of the IET order (and a few other bits and bobs orders that followed from a basically done deal design).

Cameron welcomes train manufacturing back to the North-East

“I WASN'T going to miss this for the world,” said the Prime Minister, as he welcomed train building back to the North-East.

www.thenorthernecho.co.uk

Since then manufacturing here has been through the experience of Brexit, COVID, Truss, and suddenly having a series of UK manufacturing hubs seems rather inconvenient for a government with no cash to keep them busy. So thus presumably they will attempt to hold off closure until after the election with a few vague carrots dangled of orders to come, and then let the next lot deal with the "we'll do what we can to support the workers, but these are commercial decisions" news interviews, with a piecemeal order from one of the remaining sites to replace the indisputably really knackered rolling stock, with as much big picture stuff on an enormous production of primarily diesel trains pushed as far into the long grass as plausibly possible, since it won't really sit all too well with press releases of grinning politicians shipped from London into implausibly clean Hi-Vis next to some ground breaking Wind Turbine in some provincial backwater or other.

Too Cynical ?

Energy · 22 Apr 2024

jagardner1984 said:
Isn't the truth of it that whether by direct subsidy or by the orders being controlled from within DfT - there was a political move with the 2015 opening of the Newton Aycliffe facility with a few years of work guaranteed by the scale of the IET order (and a few other bits and bobs orders that followed from a basically done deal design).

Newton Aycliffe was meant to be Hitachi's entry to Europe, but their subsequent purchase of AnsaldoBreda (now Hitachi Rail Italy) undermined this. Brexit has hardly helped either.

What rolling stock would you order from Hitachi / Alstom

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