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Why did we need HS1?

Sprigibax

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Ok stupid question I know, but I was just wondering why HS1 was needed in the first place. Why couldn’t the Eurostars carry on running into Waterloo? And if the southeast needed faster London services, couldn’t they have run over already existing routes? Especially now that the Eurostars don’t stop at Ebbsfleet or Ashford it just seems pointless. I know I must be wrong, so please correct me!

Note: I wasn’t sure which forum to put this thread in so feel free to move it if needed.
 
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JonathanH

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why HS1 was needed in the first place.
HS1 was needed to reduce journey times from London to Paris and Brussels to match the infrastructure on the other side of the Channel, and increase the share of the market using the railway. Removing European allowed some increase in 'domestic' services on the conventional railway.

It is however worth noting that the number of international trains on HS1 is nothing like what was planned.

Why couldn’t the Eurostars carry on running into Waterloo?
There was no sensible route through south London for Eurostar to continue using Waterloo, and St Pancras was available as part of a regeneration of that area.

And if the southeast needed faster London services, couldn’t they have run over already existing routes?
That wasn't the primary aim. Indeed, the services on existing routes slowed down, such as the much lamented non-stop runs between Ashford and Tonbridge which no longer go.
 

PGAT

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Ok stupid question I know, but I was just wondering why HS1 was needed in the first place. Why couldn’t the Eurostars carry on running into Waterloo? And if the southeast needed faster London services, couldn’t they have run over already existing routes? Especially now that the Eurostars don’t stop at Ebbsfleet or Ashford it just seems pointless. I know I must be wrong, so please correct me!

Note: I wasn’t sure which forum to put this thread in so feel free to move it if needed.
The route into Waterloo was frankly embarrassing. It had to twist and turn it's way through South London on a 2-track mainline with many flat junctions and low speed limits.
 

HSTEd

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Ultimately because the spectacle of a Eurostar rushing across france at 186mph before trundling through Kent was embarassing for the powers that be.

By the time HS1 was greenlit the idea of mass travel across the channel by train was dead. It was dying before Eurostar even started, killed by Easyjet et al - which is why Nightstar and Regional Eurostar never happened!

Consequently we now have a line with a pile of unnecessary and unused international infrastructure and insufficient domestic infrastructure.
 

PaulJ

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Did HS1 receive the same level of backlash HS2 gets?
In a word - yes! Many residents along the then proposed route were very much against the idea. Property blight, noise etc were frequently quoted at the time. As time has passed, Maidstone residents now want an improved high speed service and Ashford council recently had a petition for the return of international services. Here’s a Kent Online link with more history https://www.kentonline.co.uk/kent/news/amp/kents-high-speed-rail-journey-226509/
 

stuu

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Did HS1 receive the same level of backlash HS2 gets?
Locally it did, nationally not at all. Probably helped that it didn't have such an outlandish price tag attached
 

urbophile

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Ultimately because the spectacle of a Eurostar rushing across france at 186mph before trundling through Kent was embarassing for the powers that be.

By the time HS1 was greenlit the idea of mass travel across the channel by train was dead. It was dying before Eurostar even started, killed by Easyjet et al - which is why Nightstar and Regional Eurostar never happened!

Consequently we now have a line with a pile of unnecessary and unused international infrastructure and insufficient domestic infrastructure.
The environmental disaster of cheap flights byEasyjet and others should have been addressed by governments on both sides of the channel. So international rail travel has not been killed, but unnecessarily paused. Br*x*t of course didn't help. Much of the 'infrastructure' is the result of cross-border travel restrictions, which admittedly existed to a degree even before Br*x*t, but which is getting a whole load worse. Sense will have to prevail eventually.
 

Sad Sprinter

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It is however worth noting that the number of international trains on HS1 is nothing like what was planned.

Yes, 8 Eurostars an hour from London as planned by BR in 1991.

The route into Waterloo was frankly embarrassing. It had to twist and turn it's way through South London on a 2-track mainline with many flat junctions and low speed limits.

It was, and I was surely one of the people that championed HS1 when it opened, but looking back, running the Eurostar into Waterloo was actually amazing. I used to love watching the Eurostar run over the high streets of South London as a child, there was something so romantic that we built and upgraded all this infrastructure like the Nine Elms flyover, to link our railway to the European railway system. It seems like an amazing feat - even if it was a largely psychological one.
 

Sorcerer

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I think the reasons for HS1 were very much similar to HS2 in that the high-speed trains needed a bypass route uninterrupted by local traffic, which in turn allows for more efficient uses of local services and the ability to fit more of them on the network. But more than that the train also needed to be able to compete with the low cost airlines that were emerging, and 2h 15m to Paris sounds like a more attractive journey time compared to the 2h 55m pre-HS1 (down to 2h 35m with phase one opening) journey with Eurostar, and also compared to the hassle of checking in and boarding at an airport only to be on the outskirts of each city rather than right in the centre like you get with the train.

The route into Waterloo was frankly embarrassing.
From the perspective of running a high-speed continental train service it was, but having French travellers arrive into the UK at a station called Waterloo is arguably one of the greatest examples of British cheekiness you could find in the history books. :lol:
 

Magdalia

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I was just wondering why HS1 was needed in the first place. Why couldn’t the Eurostars carry on running into Waterloo? And if the southeast needed faster London services, couldn’t they have run over already existing routes?
Most of my travelling on Eurostar was in the early years between the opening of the tunnel and the opening of HS1. When the tunnel opened France already had a TGV line between Paris and the tunnel. At first Lille-Brussels was on existing track but the Belgian equivalent of HS1 happened quite quickly. (As an aside, is there a good chronology of the changes to the Lille-Brussels route anywhere please?)

The route into Waterloo was frankly embarrassing.
I agree, especially London side of Tonbridge, or, even worse, if diverted via Maidstone.

Did HS1 receive the same level of backlash HS2 gets?
The parts of HS1 that are not in tunnel mostly follow existing transport arteries: from the tunnel to Ashford is adjacent to the existing line, Ashford to Rochester is mostly next to the M20. This helped to neutralise local backlash.
Especially now that the Eurostars don’t stop at Ebbsfleet or Ashford it just seems pointless.
Ashford was used before HS1. Ebbsfleet was supposed to be a huge property development that never really happened.

The key intermediate station on HS1 was actually Stratford International because London would never have won the 2012 Olympics without it. The regeneration of the St Pancras/Kings Cross area also came in with HS1 coming to St Pancras. The benefits of HS1 were much wider than just for rail travellers.
 

Mgameing123

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Ok stupid question I know, but I was just wondering why HS1 was needed in the first place. Why couldn’t the Eurostars carry on running into Waterloo? And if the southeast needed faster London services, couldn’t they have run over already existing routes? Especially now that the Eurostars don’t stop at Ebbsfleet or Ashford it just seems pointless. I know I must be wrong, so please correct me!

Note: I wasn’t sure which forum to put this thread in so feel free to move it if needed.
Who wants high speed train only going 60 mph? Nobody so they had to build HS1 because the Eurostar was gobbling up capacity on the lines in Kent.
 

dk1

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Life without HS1 doesn't bear thinking about. That tedious treck through 3rd rail country. Fantastic investment imo.
 

mike57

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I used Eurostar once prior to HS1 opening, in 1999 to view the total eclipse in Northern France. The route into Waterloo was totally unsuitable, slow and busy. Once HS1 opened in full journey times were slashed. Terminating at St Pancras is much more useful than Waterloo, taking Euston as well which is only 10mins walk, you have every major north of London destination available in one place with no need to use the underground to transfer which saves further time if you are travelling from the Midlands or North.

Since HS1 opened we use Eurostar regularly, if it hadn't been built and we still had to get to Waterloo and then spend an hour ambling through South London on commuter lines before getting onto high speed track towards Paris then we would fly. I cant be alone in this view, which is backed up by the number of people who get off arriving services at Kings X and make for the Eurostar terminal, also the number of people dragging suitcases down Euston Rd from Euston.

As has been aired in other threads Eurostar capacity is limited by facilities at St Pancras to process passengers, I suspect if more trains could run they would be filled, the demand appears to be there.

Finally, anyone who travelled through Kings Cross or St Pancras in the 80s will remember just how bad the surroundings were, compare that with today, the redevelopment that HS1 helped has transformed the area. Just a shame they didnt build the HS2 terminal instead of the British Library, but I realise HS2 wasn't on the agenda when the redevelopment of the area took place.

HS1 also gives better access domestically to Kent

So whilst some of the planned cross channel services never materialised I would suggest that HS1 acheived a lot of positives.
 

zwk500

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So whilst some of the planned cross channel services never materialised I would suggest that HS1 acheived a lot of positives.
One important upgrade that HS1 achieved was to allow 25KV OLE and UIC Gauge Clearance throughout the route (and French signalling throughout). This removes some of the costs associated with running the additional systems needed to run onto the classic lines in Kent and allows standard European Profile Rolling stock.
 

DanNCL

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One important upgrade that HS1 achieved was to allow 25KV OLE and UIC Gauge Clearance throughout the route (and French signalling throughout). This removes some of the costs associated with running the additional systems needed to run onto the classic lines in Kent and allows standard European Profile Rolling stock.
This is one of HS1’s biggest selling points. Without it Eurostar would never have been able to introduce the e320s which would have meant the popular Amsterdam services couldn’t have happened, and it’s also been useful for freight out of hours allowing UIC size wagons to reach the East of London rather than just Dollands Moor.
Other possibilities, such as the (sadly never materialised) ICE services to London also wouldn’t have been possible without HS1.

People often think HS1 was about cutting journey times and whilst that’s a nice bonus of it, it’s far from HS1’s main selling point.
 

Mikey C

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The original HS1 route (before it was called HS1) would have been very different and far more destructive, coming up through south London to an underground Kings Cross station. This was changed in the 90s to its current East London route which passes by far fewer people and then goes through long tunnels.

This is one of HS1’s biggest selling points. Without it Eurostar would never have been able to introduce the e320s which would have meant the popular Amsterdam services couldn’t have happened, and it’s also been useful for freight out of hours allowing UIC size wagons to reach the East of London rather than just Dollands Moor.
Other possibilities, such as the (sadly never materialised) ICE services to London also wouldn’t have been possible without HS1.

People often think HS1 was about cutting journey times and whilst that’s a nice bonus of it, it’s far from HS1’s main selling point.
The Class 373s were very complicated trains, to use the legacy signalling AND work off third rail as well!
 

Arkeeos

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Because it would be internationally embarrassing otherwise, the line is very much underutilised as of now.

I’ve thought that an alternative for the lower Thames crossing could be a new line that uses the Thames crossing of HS1 and then branches up to connect to the railway around West horndon and shenfield. To make better use of the existing infrastructure.
 

mike57

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The Class 373s were very complicated trains, to use the legacy signalling AND work off third rail as well!
I assume the same applies to the Class 395s that are used on domestic services, the only difference being top speed.

coming up through south London to an underground Kings Cross station
My understanding was there would have been a 'fork' with some services continuing to use Waterloo. The route finally chosen looks to be the best one, as I was told that tunneling under SE London is quite tricky due to ground conditions.

Makes me wonder how the HS2 choices will be viewed in 25 years time, not as positivley I suspect.
No need to do that. Avoid the pollution and the crowds, and cut through the housing estates instead.
I agree but people unfamiliar with the area will not be aware of the route. A simple fix would be marking a level walking route with markers or a line.
 

zwk500

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I assume the same applies to the Class 395s that are used on domestic services, the only difference being top speed.
373s Require the ability to work on 1.5 & 3kv DC OLE as well as with Belgian signaling which 395s don't have to worry about.

My understanding was there would have been a 'fork' with some services continuing to use Waterloo. The route finally chosen looks to be the best one, as I was told that tunneling under SE London is quite tricky due to ground conditions.
That was one proposal, but keeping 2 stations in London was always going to be difficult to make work.
I agree but people unfamiliar with the area will not be aware of the route. A simple fix would be marking a level walking route with markers or a line.
A route is marked from Euston certainly (badly, I will admit) via Phoenix Road/Brill Place which is not quite the direct route but certainly a lot better than Euston Road.
 

A S Leib

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From the perspective of running a high-speed continental train service it was, but having French travellers arrive into the UK at a station called Waterloo is arguably one of the greatest examples of British cheekiness you could find in the history books.
Meanwhile, you can get on a train in Mannheim and reach Paris Est, Rue du 8 mai 1945 three hours later.
 

swt_passenger

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I agree but people unfamiliar with the area will not be aware of the route. A simple fix would be marking a level walking route with markers or a line.
Frequent fluorescent signs above head height on lamp posts is what they installed a few years ago. They can still be seen on Google Streetview, although I’ve not been along there recently.
 

FlyingPotato

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I think the reasons for HS1 were very much similar to HS2 in that the high-speed trains needed a bypass route uninterrupted by local traffic, which in turn allows for more efficient uses of local services and the ability to fit more of them on the network. But more than that the train also needed to be able to compete with the low cost airlines that were emerging, and 2h 15m to Paris sounds like a more attractive journey time compared to the 2h 55m pre-HS1 (down to 2h 35m with phase one opening) journey with Eurostar, and also compared to the hassle of checking in and boarding at an airport only to be on the outskirts of each city rather than right in the centre like you get with the train.


From the perspective of running a high-speed continental train service it was, but having French travellers arrive into the UK at a station called Waterloo is arguably one of the greatest examples of British cheekiness you could find in the history books. :lol:
I know it's off topic for the thread, but I believe a French Mayor wanted the name Waterloo changed as it might depress the arriving French
 

mike57

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A route is marked from Euston certainly (badly, I will admit) via Phoenix Road/Brill Place which is not quite the direct route but certainly a lot better than Euston Road.
Yes just walked it through on Streetview, signage is patchy, really they could do a lot better at very little cost, When (If??) HS2 makes it to Euston this is going to be even more important, and it wouldn't take much to sort it. A good start would be coloured markers on every lamp post and road sign post, in the same colour as the more wordy signs, with perhaps just a boot symbol on them.
 

Jimini

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Yes just walked it through on Streetview, signage is patchy, really they could do a lot better at very little cost, When (If??) HS2 makes it to Euston this is going to be even more important, and it wouldn't take much to sort it. A good start would be coloured markers on every lamp post and road sign post, in the same colour as the more wordy signs, with perhaps just a boot symbol on them.

Yeah it's not signposted the best, plus at the moment half of Eversholt Street is closed / being dug up for gas works, so it's not the most pleasant either (albeit better than putting up with all the tourists on Euston Road!). Oh, and you always get accosted by the charity workers at the bottom of the stairs outside M&S when exiting Euston!

Walking that way also provides a cheeky opportunity to pop to the Cock Tavern on the walk in the evening ;)
 

nw1

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The route into Waterloo was frankly embarrassing. It had to twist and turn it's way through South London on a 2-track mainline with many flat junctions and low speed limits.

It did have a lot of charm, though, arguably. There was something strangely appealing in starting your long journey to the South of France sharing your railway with CEPs and VEPs. The contrast between the familiar and the exotic, I guess.

That's not to say I'd want a return to the slower journey times now, but there was a real magic in boarding Eurostar and weaving your way through through Herne Hill and Beckenham Junction on your way to the Mediterranean, as I did on my first use of Eurostar in 1999.

Still remember the time of my first ever Eurostar: the 0823 non-stop to Paris. The pattern at the time seemed to be xx23 to Paris and xx27 to Brussels, but not every hour (sometimes also the xx53 and xx57 paths were used too). The WTTs from the late 90s and early 00s on Network Rail show the timings, there was some quite clever "flighting" of South Eastern domestic services to allow free paths through Tonbridge for a couple of Eurostars each half hour.

Yes, 8 Eurostars an hour from London as planned by BR in 1991.
I suppose in the more liberal, globalist and broad-minded times of 1991, we saw closer integration with the continent as our future and envisaged a softer, not harder, border. The hard border really kills any possibility of HS1 expansion to a wider range of destinations as it requires the installation of border facilities in every continental station served. But hey, that's the British Way I guess. Hard borders are more important than being an integral part of an international inter-city rail network.
 
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Meole

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The promised benefits outside the SE never materialised, the subsidies outweigh the gain for most of the UK.
 

Mikey C

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I suppose in the more liberal, globalist and broad-minded times of 1991, we saw closer integration with the continent as our future and envisaged a softer, not harder, border. The hard border really kills any possibility of HS1 expansion to a wider range of destinations as it requires the installation of border facilities in every continental station served. But hey, that's the British Way I guess. Hard borders are more important than being an integral part of an international inter-city rail network.
It's more the rise of Ryanair and Easyjet. Eurostar is dominant for journeys between London and Brussels, but cheap flights have killed major expansion to elsewhere in Europe (and from the UK regions to Europe via Eurostar) even before Brexit made things more complicated.
 

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