Bee Network Service Improvements (Existing services)

domcoop7 · 11 Apr 2024

Deerfold said:
Manchester is not receiving any money for the national £2 fare cap for buses which don't cross the Greater Manchester border as they already had a £2 cap in place.

That £137 million figure is not "so far". It covers the first 5 years of franchising, with the fare cap accounting for between a third and a half of that.

Franchising, so far, is far from perfect, but, so far, seems to be better that before, fairly clearly in the first area.

The Greater Manchester Combined Authority were told differently - https://democracy.greatermanchester...etwork - Bus Fares Fleet Depots and CRSTS.pdf

From page 5 of the linked report to the authority, it is clear the £134.5m is just "transition" to franchising, on top of £86m for buying depots, then we have buying the buses, the fare costs, and the ongoing subsidy (which are not mentioned in that document).

QUOTE:-

The acquisition and capital financing / depreciation costs of the bus depots to support Bus Franchising, will be funded from a combination of the approved capital budgets, of c£86m, and the approved revenue budgets, of c£134.5 million, associated with the transition to bus franchising

mangad said:
The Tory mayoral candidate was very anti franchising and sounds like she would love to dismantle it. Which I am sure would go down well with the bus companies. But anyway if anyone hates the Bee Network that much, there's options.

But the mood from Labour and the Tories at Westminster is moving to franchising more widely. I can't see this being reversed, can't see the enthusiasm from the general public to reverse it. Key thing is to make sure it does work that there are visible improvements over time.

Given Burnham barely managed to get in last time with a turn out of less than 35% (he got 473,000 votes out of an electorate of over 2 million, albeit the Tories barely managed 137,000!) I doubt most people care one way or the other. I also doubt most people know what deregulation was, or what franchising is either.

But also Franhcising was never sold on having "visible improvements". Pretty consistently the argument for Franchising was always "bus usage fell in England and Wales since 1986, but in London it didn't, so it must be deregulation must be the reason"

If bus passenger miles do not consistently and significantly increase each year, without requiring new funding, and at a higher rate than any increases in deregulated markers, then Bus Franchising is a failure. "AkShUalLy bus numbers would have gone up but changing demographics / government funding cuts / congested roads / real-bus-franchising-hasn't-been-tried" will not be an acceptable excuse. We will see.

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mayneway · 12 Apr 2024

Deerfold said:
That would require legislation to allow them to do that, though.

Yep the transport act would require changing to enable them to run things themselves.

Deerfold · 12 Apr 2024

domcoop7 said:
The Greater Manchester Combined Authority were told differently - https://democracy.greatermanchester...etwork - Bus Fares Fleet Depots and CRSTS.pdf

From page 5 of the linked report to the authority, it is clear the £134.5m is just "transition" to franchising, on top of £86m for buying depots, then we have buying the buses, the fare costs, and the ongoing subsidy (which are not mentioned in that document).

Yes. It covers the first 5 years of franchising. The buying of buses is the responsibility of the franchisees, though they have the same help from Zebra funds and GMCA as there would have been without franchising.

domcoop7 · 12 Apr 2024

Deerfold said:
Yes. It covers the first 5 years of franchising. The buying of buses is the responsibility of the franchisees, though they have the same help from Zebra funds and GMCA as there would have been without franchising.

I may be wrong but I though TfGM were buying all the buses (and already own about half of them)?

Leedsbusman · 12 Apr 2024

domcoop7 said:
I may be wrong but I though TfGM were buying all the buses (and already own about half of them)?

No - only the electric ones other than the odd ones used as part of an interim fleet. The rest are operator owned.

158756 · 18 Apr 2024

markymark2000 said:
The data in there does not include cancellations. Drivers I have spoken to have reported that they have never been asked to run so many not in service trips in an attempt to get back on time. Previously Diamond would let buses keep running late because sometimes it's better to have 2 buses run together and each one bunny hop rather than 1 bus taking 2 loads of passengers and consequently becoming even more late and creating a larger gap in services.

I'm also interested in how this is being done now. In the city centre yesterday there were significant delays on the number 8 towards Bolton, so I looked it up on and found some interesting workings.

The 16:31 to Bolton left on time, which was only possible because the inbound working skipped most of the route (may well have run the whole way not in service, I don't know). If bustimes record of the service yesterday is complete with no missing buses, at the time that not in service trip left Bolton there hadn't been a departure for 35 minutes, and the gap would eventually reach 52 minutes.

The 16:47, 16:59 and 17:28 all started short at Pendleton.

What is shown on bustimes as the 17:43 but with no tracking must have run not in service because the vehicle got from arriving at Shudehill on its previous journey to Bolton in 41 minutes (where it's next journey did start on time)

I don't know if Diamond operated it like this. But if they didn't it is definitely possible that changes to operating practices like this may have improved the number of services meeting the punctuality target.

Tim33160 · 18 Apr 2024

Buried in the bee network app is:

Moses Gate, Bolton - Roadworks

Duration
Tue 16 Apr, 2:03pm - Fri 19 Apr, 11:59pm
Operators impacted Bee Network
Routes impacted 8
Stops impacted
Deansgate / Barton Arcade (Stop NA)
New Bailey Street / Salford Central Rail Station (Stop WY)
Deansgate / St Mary's Gate (Stop ND)
Bridge Street / St Mary's Parsonage (Stop WW)
Due to roadworks on Moses Gate, bus service 8 will be on diversion in Manchester City Centre to reduce delays.

Services heading to Manchester will not serve stops along Bridge Street, Cross Street and Deansgate. They will divert via Chapel Street. You can get and off the bus along the diversion route. Services heading to Bolton will operate normal route.

https://www.tfgm.com/travel-updates/travel-alerts#bus and put "8" in the bus route box
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This was compounded on Weds evening by the MCFC v Real Madrid whose fans walked from the city centre to the Etihad Stadium causing extra city centre congestion. At 17:27, Stagecoach Manchester twitter feed were reporting their city centre services running "with delays of 40 minutes"

mayneway · 18 Apr 2024

domcoop7 said:
Anecdote (not data obviously):- daughter got bus back from the Trafford Centre to Wigan yesterday, went to catch the 20:02 number 132. She told me after waiting nearly 40 minutes, there was (as she described it) a man wandering around who suddenly said "oh sh** I'm supposed to be on that aren't I" and went into the bus and put it into service. Guessing an agency driver. I was tracking it on BusTimes and could see it was tracking as sat there at the terminus the whole time, departed 43 late. And remained 43 late up until it arrived when it was only 20 late (so I myself set off too late to pick her up at the bus station). Brilliant service improvement there! Well pleased council tax has gone up £300million to pay for it.

132 is a Diamond Eccles service and they don’t use any agency drivers. They are fully staffed.
Only operator using agency is GNW at Wigan, Bolton and Heywood.

Citibus · 18 Apr 2024

Tim33160 said:
Buried in the bee network app is:

Moses Gate, Bolton - Roadworks
Duration
Tue 16 Apr, 2:03pm - Fri 19 Apr, 11:59pm
Operators impacted Bee Network
Routes impacted 8
Stops impacted
Deansgate / Barton Arcade (Stop NA)
New Bailey Street / Salford Central Rail Station (Stop WY)
Deansgate / St Mary's Gate (Stop ND)
Bridge Street / St Mary's Parsonage (Stop WW)
Due to roadworks on Moses Gate, bus service 8 will be on diversion in Manchester City Centre to reduce delays.

Services heading to Manchester will not serve stops along Bridge Street, Cross Street and Deansgate. They will divert via Chapel Street. You can get and off the bus along the diversion route. Services heading to Bolton will operate normal route.

https://www.tfgm.com/travel-updates/travel-alerts#bus and put "8" in the bus route box
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This was compounded on Weds evening by the MCFC v Real Madrid whose fans walked from the city centre to the Etihad Stadium causing extra city centre congestion. At 17:27, Stagecoach Manchester twitter feed were reporting their city centre services running "with delays of 40 minutes"

The changes/update page isn't great is it.

for example:

Which direction of travel is this? Also two different stops are listed as closed for this five months closure. Most confusing.

markymark2000 · 18 Apr 2024

158756 said:
I don't know if Diamond operated it like this. But if they didn't it is definitely possible that changes to operating practices like this may have improved the number of services meeting the punctuality target.

Diamond, from my experiences, tended to try and keep buses running even if stupidly late and then when the bus got back to Bolton, they would try to regulate if they could with the next driver taking a 'fresh' bus. Rarely did Diamond do part services, unless it was a major disruption and it became a formal thing that every bus must do a part run. That was my experience anyway. The aim of the commercial operators tend to be keeping lost mileage to a minimum rather than being punctual.

Xenophon PCDGS · 18 Apr 2024

On the majority of bus times information sheets that is displayed on the board section affixed inside bus shelters, every service time is shown in a clear large sized typeface for Monday-to Fridays/ Saturdays/ Sundays and Bank Holidays and is a great help to elderly people with poor eyesight who do not have smart phones, especially.

I did notice one bus stop near to Heald Green railway station (Finney Lane/Heald Green shops) where a new-style numbers plate had been affixed to the pole to replace the old one and also the excellant bus time information sheet described as above had been replaced by a similar length sheet, but with all the information put in small type and compressed into a summary at the top of the sheet, leaving a very large blank section underneath. I hope that this is not going to be repeated on all future board upgradess.

At that stop is the service 368 to Stockport and the 130 to Macclesfield (which is the bus I used).

158756 · 21 Apr 2024

Another round of timetable changes on phase 1 routes (8,10,20,21,22,35,501,520,524,575,576,601,602,603,604,605,606,607,608,609,610,635,639,640,641) from next weekend on the travel updates page https://tfgm.com/travel-updates/travel-alerts#bus

Again, increasing running times. Between this round of changes and those earlier this month, 20 extra vehicles are being added to improve reliability and accommodate the longer running times. Apparently this is for a 12 month trial period.

That will definitely explain some improvement in punctuality going forward, but it won't be cheap. And the advertised journey times continue to get slower.

Also, only advertising the changes on the updates page doesn't seem great. The Bee Network Service Changes page has no mention of any timetable changes this month, it's just about the new phase 2 services starting in March.

Andyh82 · 21 Apr 2024

It’s going to be very hard to keep up with service changes if they are going to continue doing it this way

Just appearing on the bus alerts page for a few weeks and then disappearing with no record

markymark2000 · 21 Apr 2024

Andyh82 said:
It’s going to be very hard to keep up with service changes if they are going to continue doing it this way

Just appearing on the bus alerts page for a few weeks and then disappearing with no record

And to think, pre franchising, it was often used said about how with deregulation, bus operators could change timetables when they wanted with minimal notice given to anyone. And yet here we are, with buses under public control, doing just that!

Andyh82 · 21 Apr 2024

In this new world who is responsible for the timetables and hence the schedules and rotas behind them, is it TfGM or the operators?

Mollman · 22 Apr 2024

Andyh82 said:
In this new world who is responsible for the timetables and hence the schedules and rotas behind them, is it TfGM or the operators?

TfGM set out a timetable of sorts within the ITT, this set out desired frequency and should also have covered running time between timing points and PVR. The operator is responsible for rotas themselves.

Xenophon PCDGS · 22 Apr 2024

Mollman said:
TfGM set out a timetable of sorts within the ITT, this set out desired frequency and should also have covered running time between timing points and PVR. The operator is responsible for rotas themselves.

Who is responsible for printing out and displaying the timetable information long sheet that is always on the left of the large sized information board that is affixed inside the bus shelters?

mangad · 22 Apr 2024

markymark2000 said:
And to think, pre franchising, it was often used said about how with deregulation, bus operators could change timetables when they wanted with minimal notice given to anyone. And yet here we are, with buses under public control, doing just that!

Transport for Greater Manchester publicised that they planned to make changes in April, back in January.

Changes to deliver improvements to Bee Network buses

news.tfgm.com

And given most of the general public aren't checking out the TfGM bus service changes web page on a weekly basis, how much is the "right" amount of notice to provide?

In Greater Manchester, major timetable changes have long been coordinated to happen in New Year, Easter and September. But I strongly suspect the general public aren't even aware of this.

Bletchleyite · 22 Apr 2024

mangad said:
And given most of the general public aren't checking out the TfGM bus service changes web page on a weekly basis, how much is the "right" amount of notice to provide?

In Greater Manchester, major timetable changes have long been coordinated to happen in New Year, Easter and September. But I strongly suspect the general public aren't even aware of this.

I suspect on these more frequent routes people just show up to the bus stop randomly and wait in the majority of cases. For 5bph Transport for London don't even provide a proper timetable, and TfGM themselves don't for Metrolink!

mangad · 22 Apr 2024

Bletchleyite said:
I suspect on these more frequent routes people just show up to the bus stop randomly and wait in the majority of cases. For 5bph Transport for London don't even provide a proper timetable, and TfGM themselves don't for Metrolink!

Absolutely. I lived in London for nearly two decades and when everything's frequent enough, you absolutely don't plan. Who cares about timetables when the next bus is likely to be at most 10 minutes away?

mayneway · 22 Apr 2024

Andyh82 said:
In this new world who is responsible for the timetables and hence the schedules and rotas behind them, is it TfGM or the operators?

TFGM planners set the frequencies and running time etc, something they have always been not so brilliant at. Some of the running times are laughable.

Tranche 2 ops have suggested rewrites every 4-6 weeks until it’s right. Whether that means tweaking running times etc I’m not sure of.

TheGrandWazoo · 22 Apr 2024

Bletchleyite said:
I suspect on these more frequent routes people just show up to the bus stop randomly and wait in the majority of cases. For 5bph Transport for London don't even provide a proper timetable, and TfGM themselves don't for Metrolink!

That is the case on a few (36, 37, 471) but the vast majority of services affected are low frequency (lower than every 15 mins) - mainly the Diamond small franchise, it looks

markymark2000 · 22 Apr 2024

mangad said:
Transport for Greater Manchester publicised that they planned to make changes in April, back in January.

Changes to deliver improvements to Bee Network buses

news.tfgm.com

They didn't give any details though.

mangad said:
And given most of the general public aren't checking out the TfGM bus service changes web page on a weekly basis, how much is the "right" amount of notice to provide?

People should be given around 2 weeks notice really of timetable changes as often it can mean people having to replan their journeys and sometimes, even just amending the times of the first bus by 2 minutes can be the difference in someone needing to find alternative transport (the trip may no longer connect with another service or transport mode, the 2 minutes difference may mean someone deems it too risky to get to work at the right time).

mangad said:
In Greater Manchester, major timetable changes have long been coordinated to happen in New Year, Easter and September. But I strongly suspect the general public aren't even aware of this.

Easter has been and gone 3 weeks ago!

mangad · 22 Apr 2024

markymark2000 said:
They didn't give any details though.

Of course they didn't. They probably hadn't finalised the changes. And there's no real point in promoting changes three months in advance anyway. It would just cause confusion for the three people who even noticed.

markymark2000 said:
Easter has been and gone 3 weeks ago!

That's not the point I was making. The point is that we normally have fixed points when timetables change and even so, most people won't even be aware of that happening.

Hey, let's be blunt. The point most people will know the timetable has changed is the first day they go to catch a bus when the timetable has changed. People aren't glued to the TfGM website waiting to see what happens. They're not staring at the posters on the buses. In the real world this doesn't happen. You can tell people until you are blue in the face that there's a change comming and they'll still moan and complain that they haven't been told. You could put a big banner outside their front door saying "BUS CHANGES TOMORROW!" and people would still miss it. This is the real world.

Reality is for many regular bus users, the first they will know there's been a timetable change will be on the first day they try to get the bus after it has changed. Two months notice of changes, or two days notice. It doesn't matter. The result is still the same.

markymark2000 · 22 Apr 2024

mangad said:
Hey, let's be blunt. The point most people will know the timetable has changed is the first day they go to catch a bus when the timetable has changed. People aren't glued to the TfGM website waiting to see what happens. They're not staring at the posters on the buses. In the real world this doesn't happen. You can tell people until you are blue in the face that there's a change comming and they'll still moan and complain that they haven't been told. You could put a big banner outside their front door saying "BUS CHANGES TOMORROW!" and people would still miss it. This is the real world.

I agree but attempts should still be made to publicise this with enough notice for some people to be made aware. It was one of the 'issues with the deregulated bus network' that often got brought up when bus routes changed (operators make changes and give little notice to pax) and it's always been made a big thing that the Bee Network will be different and put passengers first. And here we are seeing the same thing from Bee Network as what was happening with the deregulated bus operators.

johncrossley · 22 Apr 2024

markymark2000 said:
And here we are seeing the same thing from Bee Network as what was happening with the deregulated bus operators.

Yes, but are frequent timetable changes likely once the Bee Network settles down? In London we don't get frequent timetable changes on low frequency routes. Obviously high frequency routes are not comparable because of the policy of keeping buses at even intervals.

158756 · 22 Apr 2024

Bletchleyite said:
I suspect on these more frequent routes people just show up to the bus stop randomly and wait in the majority of cases. For 5bph Transport for London don't even provide a proper timetable, and TfGM themselves don't for Metrolink!

I don't really get this - if you are just going to the shops sure, but if you need to be anywhere at a specific time or to make a connection surely you would want to know what time you need to get on the bus to get there in time?

But anyway, only a handful of the routes affected by these timetable changes ever achieve that frequency, and even those have 20 minute gaps on parts of the route at peak times. And evening services, which are also retimed on some routes, are certainly not that frequent.

To the point about most people being unaware anyway, the app is a big missed opportunity to highlight the changes to more people.

The other thing I would criticise is the fact there are two rounds of timetable changes just three weeks apart. Frequent timetable changes were a criticism often levelled at private operators. Sure, no route is affected twice, but they're all in the same areas, anyone who uses more than one route could be hit twice.

johncrossley · 22 Apr 2024

158756 said:
I don't really get this - if you are just going to the shops sure, but if you need to be anywhere at a specific time or to make a connection surely you would want to know what time you need to get on the bus to get there in time?

You can't have that kind of certainty when travelling on buses in congested conditions.

Xenophon PCDGS · 22 Apr 2024

mangad said:
Absolutely. I lived in London for nearly two decades and when everything's frequent enough, you absolutely don't plan. Who cares about timetables when the next bus is likely to be at most 10 minutes away?

You want to explain that to the people who use the 378/379 Stockport-Bramhall-Heald Green circular bi-directional services which run every hour.

158756 · 22 Apr 2024

johncrossley said:
You can't have that kind of certainty when travelling on buses in congested conditions.

TfGM must disagree, because the whole point of these changes is to get more buses running on time, and that is the performance measure they're publishing to show the Bee Network is better than the old operators.

Even on the most frequent routes in London, people surely don't set off without knowing in some way how much time they should allow for their journey.

Bee Network Service Improvements (Existing services)

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Moses Gate, Bolton - Roadworks

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