it’s a fairly safe bet that standard class passengers and taxpayers will indeed be paying for 1st class refreshments.

43066 · 21 Apr 2024

Moderator note: split from
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/crosscountry-trains-advert-banned-over-‘insufficient’-free-food-and-drink-claims….266299/

Watershed said:
And I'd be rather alarmed if standard class passengers or taxpayers are alleged to be paying for first class refreshments.

As you’ve said yourself, the railway as a whole is paid for by farepayers and taxpayers, and first class passengers are a tiny minority, so it’s a fairly safe bet that standard class passengers and taxpayers will indeed be paying for their refreshments.

RailUK Forums

Falcon1200 · 22 Apr 2024

43066 said:
so it’s a fairly safe bet that standard class passengers and taxpayers will indeed be paying for their refreshments.

No, surely, because First Class fares are higher than Standard fares, and as the First Cass seating areas have long since been bought and paid for.... what else are the higher fares actually for?!!

800Travel · 22 Apr 2024

Falcon1200 said:
No, surely, because First Class fares are higher than Standard fares, and as the First Cass seating areas have long since been bought and paid for.... what else are the higher fares actually for?!!

Probably the additional staff in first class tbh. But wait, what do they do? Serve the refreshments!

43066 · 22 Apr 2024

Falcon1200 said:
No, surely, because First Class fares are higher than Standard fares, and as the First Cass seating areas have long since been bought and paid for.... what else are the higher fares actually for?!!

It would be interesting to know whether the fare premium paid by first class passengers actually covers the cost of catering these days. I would guess not, or at least not consistently. It’s amazing how much unused stock gets thrown away, and the cost of providing it must be significant when you take into account Rail Gourmet staff, storage facilities, the food itself, employing customer hosts and so on.

Then of course you could still charge more for first class seating without any catering whatsoever (as GTR, SWR etc. do). I’m not advocating for that, but you only have to look at the reduction in catering offering at many operators to see the direction this is all going.

Bletchleyite · 22 Apr 2024

43066 said:
Then of course you could still charge more for first class seating without any catering whatsoever (as GTR, SWR etc. do). I’m not advocating for that, but you only have to look at the reduction in catering offering at many operators to see the direction this is all going.

Replied here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...rst-and-standard-classes.266411/#post-6736414

PyrahnaRanger · 22 Apr 2024

Falcon1200 said:
No, surely, because First Class fares are higher than Standard fares, and as the First Cass seating areas have long since been bought and paid for.... what else are the higher fares actually for?!!

To put some context into this point: I occasionally do XC Manchester to Oxford. An off peak return is available for £98, first class jumps to £230ish. If all I’m paying for is the space, am I really getting two and a bit times more room in first? I think there definitely should be tea, and possibly biscuits, for that level of difference.

Mind you, others are worse than XC - Carlisle - Euston return can be done off peak for £117, no off peak first, so it’s £330 advance singles each way or £589…think I’ve just bought a whole carriage! TPE Carlisle - Manchester is £66 for two advance singles, or £198 for the same in first.

The last few times I’ve bought seatfrogs, first hasn’t been that busy - is the premium really justified?

LiftFan · 23 Apr 2024

I find with SeatFrog it's definitely worth the money. Did the HST Plymouth - Glasgow run last year for an extra £20, got lucky with the catering so I had as many bacon rolls, sandwiches and cups of tea as I could eat! Far better value for money than what GWR provide at least...

Djgr · 23 Apr 2024

43066 said:
As you’ve said yourself, the railway as a whole is paid for by farepayers and taxpayers, and first class passengers are a tiny minority, so it’s a fairly safe bet that standard class passengers and taxpayers will indeed be paying for their refreshments.

This argument is so logically flawed!!!

43066 · 23 Apr 2024

Djgr said:
This argument is so logically flawed!!

How so?

The post I responded to in the other thread made it clear that the only income is from farepayers or taxpayers. Therefore the cost of providing first class refreshments can only be paid for out of these, to the extent the premium paid by first class passengers doesn’t cover them.

Tazi Hupefi · 23 Apr 2024

43066 said:
How so?

The post I responded to in the other thread made it clear that the only income is from farepayers or taxpayers. Therefore the cost of providing first class refreshments can only be paid for out of these, to the extent the premium paid by first class passengers doesn’t cover them.

Some passengers wouldn't even contemplate travelling by train (aside, perhaps from local metro style journeys) without first class accomodation available.

Post-covid with the boom in leisure travel, first class is actually performing far better than expected.

As people have explained, the additional farebox revenue from first class ticket holders generally covers the refreshments (and on the likes of GWR Pullman Dining, TfW and Caledonian Sleeper, you pay £20-£50 extra for food and drink anyway).

When Avanti and LNER offer their small cooked breakfast options, these trains tend to be when Advance 1st tickets are only available at the higher tiers, or an Anytime 1st ticket is required.

Broadly, the regular first class customer demographic also tends to spend more on other services, such as station car parking, buys a coffee whilst waiting etc.

A lot of these customers would be lost to their cars completely without an attractive first class option, so you're not just losing the difference between first and standard.

Standard Premium on Avanti is, on the whole, extremely over subscribed on weekdays, some people are physically unable to upgrade. No refreshments or snacks provided there - but the point is that the 1.5 coaches of First Class are still turning a decent profit - otherwise they'd have all have been made Standard Premium to accommodate the very clear demand.

AndrewP · 23 Apr 2024

I can't agree with you on this one as a general rule - the aim of the fare should be to cover costs and make a profit at a given percentage so there should be no cross subsidy.

With Cross Country and TPE where the same staff member also does the catering offer for standard class there is no extra staff therefore the marginal cost is the drink and food which will be very little.

On Cross Country where the fares for first are often 2 - 3x that of standard class (unfortunately) then it is more likely that first is subsidising standard class but this will vary by train and also with other TOCs - pricing any service is a complicated matter!

Also just to point out that whereas Cross Country does have some of the worst catering in both classes they do seem to have some of the nicest friendliest staff - not a job I could do!

AlterEgo · 23 Apr 2024

43066 said:
How so?

The post I responded to in the other thread made it clear that the only income is from farepayers or taxpayers. Therefore the cost of providing first class refreshments can only be paid for out of these, to the extent the premium paid by first class passengers doesn’t cover them.

This is the first time I have ever come across the argument that standard class passengers subsidise first class ones. First class refreshments cost a pittance as they are delivered at scale on most operators. A first class host on an Avanti service London to Manchester is probably costing the company £100 at most by being there for two hours. That cost is covered by one or two ticket holders alone.

First Class is quite profitable for long distance TOCs.

Tazi Hupefi · 23 Apr 2024

AlterEgo said:
This is the first time I have ever come across the argument that standard class passengers subsidise first class ones. First class refreshments cost a pittance as they are delivered at scale on most operators. A first class host on an Avanti service London to Manchester is probably costing the company £100 at most by being there for two hours. That cost is covered by one or two ticket holders alone.

First Class is quite profitable for long distance TOCs.

A host is even required on some trains to act as an additional competent person in the event of an incident, particularly on trains formed of multiple units like 22x. Therefore even if the train was standard class only, the train wouldn't run without the staff cost being incurred!

Toby268 · 23 Apr 2024

I don’t agree with this - and know for certain that on one intercity TOC first class operates at a surplus, after staffing in first and food is taken into account. And this is even on lightly loaded services with 2 hosts in first.

43066 · 23 Apr 2024

Tazi Hupefi said:
As people have explained, the additional farebox revenue from first class ticket holders generally covers the refreshments (and on the likes of GWR Pullman Dining, TfW and Caledonian Sleeper, you pay £20-£50 extra for food and drink anyway).

That’s the theory, but my question is whether it covers the overall cost when first often has few passengers travelling, yet still has a host and catering facilities rostered.

AndrewP said:
I can't agree with you on this one as a general rule - the aim of the fare should be to cover costs and make a profit at a given percentage so there should be no cross subsidy.

I’m not necessarily disputing that, I’m just not convinced there isn’t cross subsidy - does anyone have any actual figures?

AlterEgo said:
This is the first time I have ever come across the argument that standard class passengers subsidise first class ones. First class refreshments cost a pittance as they are delivered at scale on most operators. A first class host on an Avanti service London to Manchester is probably costing the company £100 at most by being there for two hours. That cost is covered by one or two ticket holders alone.

First Class is quite profitable for long distance TOCs.

I’m just interested to know if that’s still the case - there are a lot of deals available these days - Seatfrog as mentioned above, weekend first upgrades etc., virtually nobody pays for open first returns any more, and we have quite a few services where there are hardly any first class passengers, yet catering/host is still provided.

Tazi Hupefi said:
A host is even required on some trains to act as an additional competent person in the event of an incident, particularly on trains formed of multiple units like 22x. Therefore even if the train was standard class only, the train wouldn't run without the staff cost being incurred!

Where I am hosts aren’t safety critical, or even PTS trained, so generally you need two TMs for ten car 22Xs. Trains will regularly run in service without hosts during disruption, but generally cannot run without TMs (there are one or two exceptions to this).

Bletchleyite · 23 Apr 2024

Tazi Hupefi said:
A host is even required on some trains to act as an additional competent person in the event of an incident, particularly on trains formed of multiple units like 22x. Therefore even if the train was standard class only, the train wouldn't run without the staff cost being incurred!

This bizarre policy applies only to some TOCs. Other TOCs are quite happy to run trains formed of as many as three ungangwayed units DOO.

But even ignoring that, where required it can be a Standard class trolley pusher or buffet steward (and indeed is on GWR and I think Avanti). It does not have to be a First Class host alone.

DarloRich · 23 Apr 2024

I would just ban first class. All passengers should get the same good service.

43066 said:
I’m just not convinced there isn’t cross subsidy

I have long felt that - especially when you consider the number of railcard discounts or split tickets people here rely on!

EDIT - I better add this: OBVIOUSLY other people use railcard discounts/split ticket but I bet not at a the scale of posters here.

Bletchleyite · 23 Apr 2024

DarloRich said:
I would just ban first class. All passengers should get the same good service.

I think being able to pay a reasonable amount extra (about 50% on top) for about 50% more space is a good option to have if you're a bigger person. That's how First Class is in the Germanic countries at least, indeed other than on work travel where work won't pay it I travel First Class in other countries pretty much by default.

What I'm not interested in is paying a fortune for gimmickry like free food I don't want.

DarloRich · 23 Apr 2024

Bletchleyite said:
I think being able to pay a reasonable amount extra (about 50% on top) for about 50% more space is a good option to have if you're a bigger person. That's how First Class is in the Germanic countries at least.

I would charge more. I would remove railcard discounts. Make it a truly premium service that one pays a premium price for.

All Line Rover · 23 Apr 2024

DarloRich said:
I would just ban first class. All passengers should get the same good service.

I have long felt that - especially when you consider the number of railcard discounts or split tickets people here rely on!

EDIT - I better add this: OBVIOUSLY other people use railcard discounts/split ticket but I bet not at a the scale of posters here.

That's a good idea!

To that end, I propose the elimination of all standard class fares and only offering first class fares (under the new name of "one class"), to ensure that all passengers benefit from the highest possible standards.

Bletchleyite · 23 Apr 2024

All Line Rover said:
That's a good idea!

To that end, I propose the elimination of all standard class fares and only offering first class fares (under the new name of "one class"), to ensure that all passengers benefit from the highest possible standards.

Don't give LNER ideas.

DarloRich said:
I would charge more. I would remove railcard discounts. Make it a truly premium service that one pays a premium price for.

Then hardly anybody would use it - or would that be to prove low demand so as to abolish it?

The future of premium classes is leisure and self-upgrade - businesses pretty much universally won't pay it any more except for very senior management. Avanti Standard Premium seems a good (and very popular) model.

DarloRich · 23 Apr 2024

All Line Rover said:
That's a good idea!

To that end, I propose the elimination of all standard class fares and only offering first class fares (under the new name of "one class"), to ensure that all passengers benefit from the highest possible standards.

TBH paying a first class fare cant be that much more than having to buy tickets without a railcard!

Bletchleyite said:
Then hardly anybody would use it - or would that be to prove low demand so as to abolish it?

I couldn't possibly confirm or deny

deltic · 23 Apr 2024

Tazi Hupefi said:
Post-covid with the boom in leisure travel, first class is actually performing far better than expected.

First class revenue is way way down on pre-COVID, far more than revenue as a whole. Those peak first class ticket sales have gone and while first advance sales may be doing okay they don't make up more than a small share of the revenue lost.

Kite159 · 23 Apr 2024

.

DarloRich said:
I would charge more. I would remove railcard discounts. Make it a truly premium service that one pays a premium price for.

Including PRIV discounts for those staff entitled to 75% off 1st class fares?

Afterall can't have one rule for staff and one rule for the general public.

DarloRich · 23 Apr 2024

Kite159 said:
.

Including PRIV discounts for those staff entitled to 75% off 1st class fares?

Afterall can't have one rule for staff and one rule for the general public.

Obviously. You cant have one rule for one after all. Of course, they will still get the discount on the only class.

deltic said:
First class revenue is way way down on pre-COVID, far more than revenue as a whole. Those peak first class ticket sales have gone and while first advance sales may be doing okay they don't make up more than a small share of the revenue lost.

And while I am being slightly fatuous above this is something that has to be looked at. Business travel has gone for a burton. First class business travel seems to have become almost mythical.

Can/should first class survive if it is almost entirely reliant on leisure travel and then often on cheaper advances - if it doesn't bring in the money should it survive?

43066 · 23 Apr 2024

Kite159 said:
Afterall can't have one rule for staff and one rule for the general public.

I think you’ll find you can!

Staff members often ask for and are given permission to travel completely for free in first, even where not strictly entitled to. It’s entirely down to TM’s discretion, and certainly isn’t guaranteed, but when allowed it’s a perk of the job (albeit more of a custom than a rule).

Kite159 said:
Afterall can't have one rule for staff and one rule for the general public.

Most Priv holders only get it for standard fares. AIUI only management get it for 1st.

Bletchleyite · 23 Apr 2024

DarloRich said:
Can/should first class survive if it is almost entirely reliant on leisure travel and then often on cheaper advances - if it doesn't bring in the money should it survive?

If it isn't profitable (when compared to having the same number of Standard seats) I can't see any reason to have it, no. I think it should be possible for it to be profitable on a basis like Standard Premium, but probably only just and not on regional services.

2+2 First Class should be abolished, though, it serves no purpose.

43066 · 23 Apr 2024

Bletchleyite said:
If it isn't profitable (when compared to having the same number of Standard seats) I can't see any reason to have it, no. I think it should be possible for it to be profitable on a basis like Standard Premium, but probably only just and not on regional services.

I think I’m right in saying there’s no complimentary catering in Standard Premium?

mike57 · 23 Apr 2024

DarloRich said:
I would just ban first class. All passengers should get the same good service.

DarloRich said:
I would charge more. I would remove railcard discounts. Make it a truly premium service that one pays a premium price for.

I will happily pay a premium for first class. Nowadays most of my rail travel is for leisure, I like the extra space, food and drink. I have a bad knee and my wife has a bad back, and first class is more comfortable. On a typical journey to say London, 3+ hours from home this makes a big difference. Currently that premium typically may be £50 standard v £90 first each return using advance tickets with a rail card. Its a leisure journey and I want it to be pleasant. If the premium becomes too big however then I may not make the journey at all or may use another mode of transport.

3+ hours in standard class on ironing board airline seats with no window view is fine if I have to make the journey for work but its not acceptable to me for a leisure journey.

If you either do away with 1st class or price ordainary people off it then revenue will fall, and I suspect it will fall quicker than costs.

I know labels these days are not popular so to put it in perspective we have sufficent 'spare' money to do things, and dont have to watch every penny, but neither are we 'super rich' where money is no object at all, and judging by recent trips I would say a large proportion of our fellow 1st class travellers probably fall into the same category.

So do you abandon this group, and hope that they still use the railways. Personally I would rather there is a range of options to suit all budgets and needs.

Bletchleyite · 23 Apr 2024

43066 said:
I think I’m right in saying there’s no complimentary catering in Standard Premium?

Correct. With the upgrade prices it's basically Euro-1st - about 50% on top of the fare for a seat that provides about 50% more space.

it’s a fairly safe bet that standard class passengers and taxpayers will indeed be paying for 1st class refreshments.

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