D1537
Member
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- 11 Jul 2019
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I've not had this experience and I use LNER first a lot, mostly at weekends.
It's often busy, but I've not really noticed it being "noisy".
Perhaps I've just been lucky.
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it’s a fairly safe bet that standard class passengers and taxpayers will indeed be paying for 1st class refreshments.
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It's often busy, but I've not really noticed it being "noisy".
Perhaps I've just been lucky.
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andythebrave
Member
I may just have been unlucky and I should point out that my comment really only refers to Edinburgh services; on those occasions where I've been on the Leeds services things have been more pleasant.
However, to add to my displeasure, although the Avanti refurb has, in my opinion, made the seats less comfortable, they are still miles ahead of those in the 800 series which are, to be frank, not suitable for lengthy journeys.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'd agree that the First Class seats in the Avanti refurbs are a downgrade. For me the headrest sticks out a bit and is too low down. With Standard having been made so much better I'm much less likely to upgrade than before.
I think (bar the relative lack of single seats) the unrefurbished Pendolino 1st was the best 1st in the UK in my living memory.
I'd agree the 80x 1st isn't worth the money.
D1537
Member
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- 11 Jul 2019
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- 538
My usual journey is Newark to Edinburgh and return. Having said that our usual outbound service on a Saturday is quite early, so perhaps they get more boisterous later on.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It might simply be noisier because the coaches are longer so contain a lot more people (particularly if Pendolino Coach K is the OP's usual haunt - that's only about a third of a coach in reality).
About £20ph staff wage, add in time before to prep and tidy up on arrival I'd say £55 for staff wage them obviously employer contributions
Few easy wins...
Get rid of Seatfrog, it devalues first class that anyone paying an extra £20-40 can just sit in there and as mentioned earlier "I ate all the bacon rolls, sandwiches" etc mentality devalues the FC product
Bring back a decent plated meal even if it's chargeable. Sone chefs work to London and cook on that journey, on the way back they serve prepacked food. Why? Do a premium lunch and evening meal option.
No Railcard discounts on First Class. You get a third off in SC and you can upgrade to premium on Avanti but if you want the full First service then it's not discounted
Advance ticket holders pre-book food with tickets. In the event of disruption pre ordered food is split and sent to the train before and after. This reduces food waste. Open ticket holders can pre-book too, if it's turn up on day then a selection of products are loaded
Restrict the complimentary alcohol, it's a bar service not all inclusive. Again a small amount of people ruin the ambience
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Kite159
Veteran Member
Personally I would ditch the complimentary alcohol. Keep soft drinks & hot drinks as freebies but if someone wishes to drink alcohol they either have to bring it on board or buy on board.
Saves taxpayer money being used to fund drunks.
fishwomp
Member
The food and host (lower wage than safety critical role) compared to cost of an extra carriage (leasing and taxi charges) is probably insignificant.
If a first class carriage carries 3 seats for every 4 it would be in standard, then - if it had same occupancy rate as standard - you need to sell every seat at least 33% higher price.
But the reality is that first is rarely full, and only gets fuller if standard class is too busy to have "space" to work/stretch out.. so most of the time they carry a significant amount of air in first class - even if standard is 50-75% full... So you might be right.
However, if a service is rammed with standing in standard, standard can be making 50% more than that... That's why commuter lines are less likely to have.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
with or without your railcard? I am NOT trying to be difficult but the discount is reducing the profitability - I maintain: if not at least breaking even bin FC OR make it pay.
This kinda makes my point! If FC is full of people on railcards then remove it OR remove the discounts. A non rail card reduced standard class ticket is much more than the railcard reduced first class ticket. That doesn't seem right or sensible from a business point of view.
(OR give me a railcard so I can join the fun. Then it can stay. I have principles but can be bought!)
Virgin/Avanti FC provision was WAY over requirements - it needed changing. Personally, I would have preferred more standard class seating. Pre covid it was MADDENING to be wedged in a doorway with 7 people in 3 first class carriages lording it over us plebs with their space, seats and refreshments.
Come the revolution..........................
Are you paying full price for it? ( See above) If you are I bet you are the only poster here who is!
I think the railcard issue is separate and distinct from the First Class discussion. I do think that the approach to railcards is a little divisive and exclusionary.
mike57
Established Member
To be honest the railcard doesn't matter, there is an amount for a journey at which I will say no, then one of 3 things happen, travel standard class, use a different mode of transport, or dont make the journey.
If the amount I pay is profitable to the operator, which in the case of Hull Trains (a large proportion of my UK first class journeys) as an open access operator its likely to be then thats fine. If the ticket price goes up beyond my price point then something will change. HT must factor a proportion of railcard discounts into their calculations. Because its an advance ticket, bought direct from HT I assume the revenue goes straight to them rather than into a pot to be distributed as would be the case with an open ticket.
A large number of routes are subsidised by the taxpayer, how do you manage that subsidy wrt to first class, are you expecting the first class traveller to pay the full commercial cost of the journey whilst standard class is subsidised, or is it a subsidy per passenger mile, in which case first class pays for the extra space and any 'freebies'.
And if people decide to use another mode or not travel if first class is either unavailable or too expensive then thats revenue lost unless the train is at 100% capacity, in which case its only really the marginal costs of providing first class that should be added to a standard class fare.
At a simple level the uplift has been around 50% for a lot of journeys for many years, and that feels about right in my mind. I know there are outliers, both for more and less, but they are usually where some other effect is making a difference.
Interestingly in France its often possible to pick 'prem' tickets up for first class for a few euros more than the standard class, but of course there are no freebies, its just a nicer seat.
You guys have priv now I thought? Just do what the rest of us do, ask the guard, and travel in first for free! If they say no (rare) it’s no great loss.
I take the point London to Scotland, where airlines offer competitive overall journey times, but it’s hard to believe there are many people who are going to decide not to travel between London and Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds etc. or use another mode just because first is unavailable. The fact first class provisioning has been reduced tends to bear this out.
It matters in the sense that people assume high headline prices mean that first class is profitable, but in reality a significant number (most?) 1st tickets are bought at some sort of discount, so the true picture may be different.
This highlights how the market has changed. The only people who would ever generally pay anytime walk up prices, or open returns, in first would be those travelling on business. That’s become a lot less common over the last couple of decades (even before Covid), either because the trips don’t happen, or because they’re expected to travel in standard class.
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DarloRich
Veteran Member
I wouldn't even think to do that.
Mcr Warrior
Veteran Member
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Is that normally ever the case, unless you are perhaps comparing undiscounted walk up standard class tickets against railcard discounted first class advance tickets?
D1537
Member
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I'd be very surprised if anyone could get steaming drunk on the free alcohol on LNER. It's not like you can say "hi, I'll have five cans of lager please" ... you get one each time the hosts come round. The most beers I've ever had on a single journey is 3, and even that was on a heavily delayed service.
Also, "people that drink alcohol" are not equal to "drunks", thanks.
it doesn't take much planning or preparation to ditch the train and take the car.
Very much depends on the journey. Not many will do London to Leeds or Manchester and back in a day in the car. If I was staying for a few days in (say) Bath or York, I’d rather take the train.
My commute from zone 4/5 to zone 1 is circa. 45 mins by train, but up to 1:30 by car, driving through London traffic, and I’m part of the tiny minority who get free parking in central London. If I didn’t, it would cost £40 - £50 per day.
There are some journeys for which the train really is the only sensible method of transport. Hence whether first is available or not is unlikely to make much difference.
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mike57
Established Member
I suspect this situation is mainly a London and other big city situation, where journeys have to made and rail is quickest/easiest
If you look around our area then I suspect a much higher proportion of journeys are discretionary, with not making the journey at all (by any means, including non rail) as one of the options if the costs/difficulties are higher than the perceived value. I am thinking days out, visiting friends and relatives etc.
This is probably reflected in the quality of the 1st Class offering on say Thameslink or Southern, where to be quite honest it looks very little different from the standard class. I am assuming the only thing you may be buying with 1st on these services is a seat at busy times