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Labour promises rail nationalisation within five years of coming to power

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Scanderina

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There is no reason though why on day 1, they can’t merge Network Rail with DOHL
There's good reason why they can't do this on day 1: it would break the current law which requires separation of infrastructure and services - they can't be in the same entity with a combined P&L. This is why it's significant there's a commitment to legislation in the first parliament, but this won't happen on day 1 (and, frankly, there will be higher priorities for a new government), and until this becomes law there can't be a true merger of NR & OLR.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Labour will have to get GBR legislation through parliament to set up its intended ownership structure, which will take at least a year.
In the meantime several TOC contracts will have to be extended, or transferred to OLR.
OLR TOCs will inevitably be the guinea pigs for the GBR type of operation, and how they integrate with Network Rail will be a complex business.
Today, even the OLR TOCs have different ticketing systems and operational policies.
How quickly will a single brand emerge from all this (if indeed it does)?
Meanwhile the TOC/NR/DfT management will be on tenterhooks worrying about their place in the new structure.

Has anybody located the official Labour Party detailed announcement on rail reform?
 

156421

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I'm listening to Louise Haig, the shadow minister being interviewed on Radio 4. All passenger services would be branded GBR and be state-run from 2027, when the last of the current contracts ends.

The politicisation of the railways sounds pretty miserable to me.
Despite East Midlands Railway current contract expiring in 2030. Textbook accuracy from the Labor Party (ironically on BBC as well).
 

Clarence Yard

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The savings are in the back office, where only one set of central functions are needed. However, many of those staff may not be employed in railway specialisms.

The saving that people have always had their eyes on is from people like lawyers and other professional service providers who would no longer need to extract money from the railways because there would be fewer contracts to negotiate within the industry.

A common viewpoint appears to be that the railway hemorrhages too much money outside the industry in profit for suppliers.

The lawyers thing is a bit of a myth, perpetuated by the unions. There isn’t too much lawyering involved in the day to day railway. The key savings here are cutting out 14 TOCS having to team up their functions to transact with 1 NR.

A good example of this is in train planning, which could easily be done at GBR regional level. An important way to success is to get these easy savings in first and then work towards the more tricky ones, such as combining train crew depots and harmonising pay and conditions, which will have to be tackled to avoid equal pay claims.

Another example of saving will be that GBR is going to be big enough to run its own specialist functions. Some Owning Groups make money through HQ consulting fees with their own TOCs so presumably that will also end.
 

43066

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The savings are in the back office, where only one set of central functions are needed. However, many of those staff may not be employed in railway specialisms.

The saving that people have always had their eyes on is from people like lawyers and other professional service providers who would no longer need to extract money from the railways because there would be fewer contracts to negotiate within the industry.

A common viewpoint appears to be that the railway hemorrhages too much money outside the industry in profit for suppliers.

I suppose things like HR, payroll, IT departments etc. might be vulnerable, albeit these tend to be run on something of a shoe string. Depending on the nature of the nationalisation they will presumably either be transferred over via the entity they work for being “purchased” by the nationalised body, TUPEd over to a new employing entity, or potentially moved to other non-rail areas of their owning groups’ businesses.

There will be presumably be a massive amount of work required to integrate all of these areas, after thirty years of divergence, enough to keep plenty of people busy for a very long time. I wonder whether the implications have really been thought through (or costed up).

such as combining train crew depots and harmonising pay and conditions, which will have to be tackled to avoid equal pay claims.

That’s a good point, and perhaps points to entirely separate employing entities being retained.
 

Danfilm007

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A good example of this is in train planning, which could easily be done at GBR regional level. An important way to success is to get these easy savings in first and then work towards the more tricky ones, such as combining train crew depots and harmonising pay and conditions, which will have to be tackled to avoid equal pay claims.

Does it reduce cost? Sure, you might save on a couple of people doing it but by and large most train planners are rather busy? For example
 

Goldfish62

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There's a lot of negativity on this thread about these proposals. I never realised that so many people were satisfied with the current state of the railways.

Or maybe it's just negativity without any counter-proposals.
 

Howardh

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It will be interesting to see the public's take on this; I'm sure it will be popular, as a mere passenger we've had delays, cancellations (especially last trains which for me has made nights out on the Fylde, Lancaster etc impossible) and a bewildering array of ticketing options which you need an advanced degree in to work out sometimes, maybe the general feeling will be "it can't get any worse under renationalisation, so let's do it and hope it's better"?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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It will be interesting to see the public's take on this; I'm sure it will be popular, as a mere passenger we've had delays, cancellations (especially last trains which for me has made nights out on the Fylde, Lancaster etc impossible) and a bewildering array of ticketing options which you need an advanced degree in to work out sometimes, maybe the general feeling will be "it can't get any worse under renationalisation, so let's do it and hope it's better"?
It's worth mentioning that when privatisation was on the stocks in the early 90s, the general public consensus was that "it can't be any worse than BR".
 

Goldfish62

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It's worth mentioning that when privatisation was on the stocks in the early 90s, the general public consensus was that "it can't be any worse than BR".
That was the case with all privatisations in the 80s and early 90s.
 

BostonGeorge

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There's a lot of negativity on this thread about these proposals. I never realised that so many people were satisfied with the current state of the railways.

Or maybe it's just negativity without any counter-proposals.
Does this not just sum up the current state of the country as a whole? Every single day in my line of work I meet members of the public who are content with things being crap because even rock bottom is quite a distance from crap. In essence, we know where we stand with crap. It's the kind of apathy one would expect in Tory Britain.
 

Falcon1200

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Neutralises competition for labour within the industry.

However freight and open access operators will remain, so there will still be some competition, for Drivers for example.

Nationalisation of Rail wasn't in Labour's 1997 manifesto.

I'm sure I recall John Prescott, at a Labour Party conference pre-1997, promising a 'publicly-owned and accountable' railway, which sounds like nationalisation to me!

It's worth mentioning that when privatisation was on the stocks in the early 90s, the general public consensus was that "it can't be any worse than BR".

Indeed, and given that privatisation happened 30 years ago, many people have no experience of BR at all; Which is not to say that BR was anything like as poor as it was often portrayed, but nationalisation did not, and will not, put an end to delays, cancellations and overcrowding.

Something I have not seen mentioned (sorry if I have missed such posts) is whether and how Labour propose to harmonise rates of pay and conditions of service across the industry; That will mean interesting discussions with the Unions!
 

Magdalia

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The franchise model is 30 years old, going back to privatisation. Since then there has only been one significant attempt to rearrange the franchise boundaries, about 10 years after privatisation.

The railway is now stuck with pieces of franchise jigsaw puzzle that are unfit for purpose because of the subsequent changes to the UK economy generally and transport use in particular. The strains this poses are exemplified by the long running saga of the East Coast Timetable revision. Another example is the capacity constraints at Ely, where 4 different TOCs defend their existing rights instead of devising a timetable fit for now, not fit for 20-30 years ago.

The franchise model is now an obstacle that is hindering the railway's ability to adapt to change. The Great British Railways model will facilitate the reallocation of resources to where they are most needed in a way that can't be done now because those resources are ringfenced in franchise silos.

I went through lots of reorganisations in my working career, most of them more trouble than they were worth, but this is a reorganisation that I think is necessary.
 
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Mike Machin

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People always think that change will produce noticeably different outcomes, but that’s often not the case. I remember hearing a vintage radio interview where an old chap was moaning about the service from the GWR and was looking forward to nationalisation. I have also recently heard an old radio interview from the 1960s, and the woman was adamant that she was fed up with filthy, dirty late trains provided by British Railways and that the services should return to the private sector.

Today on Radio4 people being interviewed are generally disconnected with their train operating companies.

People will always moan about railways, it’s as British as complaining about the weather!
 

m0ffy

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I’m struggling to see the problem here. Taxpayers are already subsidising (or at least underwriting) the TOCs and the infrastructure is mostly in public ownership anyway.
 

physics34

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Safety has been one positive about Privatisation... (eventually after Hatfield and Ladbroke Grove!), because privatisation created a point of accountability.. a person to point the finger at, and a loss of profits as a result. Another is the replacement of slam door stock...

Most other things are worse than BR. I look forward to togetherness, money staying in the railway and a sense of pride.... hopefully.
 

Carlisle

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That was the case with all privatisations in the 80s and early 90s.
Surely not quite all, I don’t seem to recall privatisation of the gas & electricity supply industries happening under the ‘can’t get any worse’ cloud .
 

Kite159

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The specific wording on Open Access Operators, as on Page 6 of Labour’s full document (linked below):
So an excuse to rip up their access agreements as they will be deemed as not adding 'value' as labour don't like competition.

Those pesky open access operators limiting what the glorious LNER can charge for Doncaster to London, get rid of them and get rid of the competition. Hello fare hikes in the name of simplicity
 

MarlowDonkey

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Safety has been one positive about Privatisation... (eventually after Hatfield and Ladbroke Grove!), because privatisation created a point of accountability.
It went the other way for a while when Railtrack lost sight of the state of its infrstructure. Also the ToCs were allowed to adopt arguably unsafe working practices. I'm think of the Southall crash, where a single manned HST was allowed to run at full speed without an operational warning system. For that matter did the signalling a freight train to cross in the path of the HST have anyting to do with it?
 

The Planner

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Does it reduce cost? Sure, you might save on a couple of people doing it but by and large most train planners are rather busy? For example
Yes, I think it would. The TOC expertise would outweigh that of NR as they have the knowledge of diagrams and inner workings. It would remove a lot of transactional processes.
 

Taunton

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It went the other way for a while when Railtrack lost sight of the state of its infrstructure. Also the ToCs were allowed to adopt arguably unsafe working practices. I'm think of the Southall crash, where a single manned HST was allowed to run at full speed without an operational warning system. For that matter did the signalling a freight train to cross in the path of the HST have anyting to do with it?
That was indeed a stupidity, but nothing to do with privatisation. Some years earlier there was a fatal collision at Bridgwater when it had been decided to end the practice of changing locos at Bristol to ensure only those with GWR-pattern AWS were used on the lines so equipped. Off went an LMR loco now working through, no compatible AWS, ran through signals at speed, accident ensued. Just the same. That was all under nationalised managers who decided to start running like this. Deciding AWS was "optional" was in place both before and after privatisation.
 
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Devonian

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It's worth mentioning that when privatisation was on the stocks in the early 90s, the general public consensus was that "it can't be any worse than BR".
There was not a uniform assumption that "anything would be better" in the '90s: there was also a feeling that BR was being shaped to make it attractive to buyers rather than focussed on the passenger customer.

Safety has been one positive about Privatisation...
It has been one positive of the period since privatisation, but only after a number of accidents attributed to defective infrastructure caused maintenance to be brought back 'in house' by state-owned Network Rail after the failings and failure of shareholder-owned Railtrack.

The lack of investment in infrastructure and risk of failures today very much echoes concerns in the 1990s before privatisation: when, by coincidence, a crisis-riven Conservative government was dealing with a decline in railway revenue from business travel after an economic shock, rolling stock orders were in doubt, investment in rail was cut and a reorganisation of the railways was on the cards... plus ça change.
 

Howardh

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Surely not quite all, I don’t seem to recall privatisation of the gas & electricity supply industries happening under the ‘can’t get any worse’ cloud .
When that happened, we joined nPower and they were diabolical. We moved to OVO, a much smaller and customer-friendly company and they were brilliant. Then they took over SSE and are now just as poor as nPower were.

Thinking I wonder if it's not privatisation that's the problem per se, but the actual size and accountability of the companies?? Although I can't link that to BR, I couldn't imagine, say, 20/30 smaller TOC's running on the same infrastructure, just doesn't make sense. The Island Line might be the exception that proves the rule! Point being, BR would end up being one huge TOC rather than the dozen(?) we have now?
 

Gigabit

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The pledge of internet connections is reasonable but basically meaningless.

They should as part of this, allow wholesale access to the entire network for MNOs to deliver 5G. That includes all of Network Rail’s existing assets.
 

Dr Hoo

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Hopefully it’ll put an end to the nonsense of situations like the other day when the driver of a XC service was taken ill at Gloucester, causing much disruption as the train blocked a platform, despite the fact a depot full of drivers is right there who could’ve shunted it out the way, but none of them sign 170s.

But I highly doubt it.
Taking this nugget as a case study of possible ‘quick wins’/‘low hanging fruit’ that might be available for GBR; how many drivers are based at Gloucester? How much effort would it take to get Class 170s on all of their traction cards and keep that competence up to date?
 
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