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Hulley's of Baslow

Teapot42

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12 Jan 2022
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677
From my experiences of using the service at least, it was largely used by ENCTS pass holders, the low reimbursement rates are often cited as reasons for cuts/failures to a service,
Unfortunately that applies to a lot of the Hulleys network much of the year, as well as to the Stagecoach services in the west of Chesterfield discussed further up the thread.

It's not that demand isn't there, it's that it is hard to meet commercially as what the operator gets isn't realistic.

Regarding the Snake, I believe ENCTS was a double-whammy to them. I never got the full story, but it seems Manchester wasn't reimbursing for cross-border passengers for some administrative reason.

it was only really largely picking up within Sheffield, Glossop and Manchester City Centre
They later added stops at Hyde and Denton which seemed to help.

To be honest, I think this sort of service falls between a bus service and a coach service. A bit like the Red Arrow, it doesn't really need coaches, but needs something better than a bus, both in terms of comfort and capability of higher speed running. While they were much less commercially viable services, one reason I avoided the X98 and X99 was simply that I didn't fancy several hours cramped in to an Evora. The vehicle itself is probably one of the better on the market for that sort of service, but the interior needs an inter-urban spec with fewer and more comfortable seats.

I'm confused by the above. At present the 170 is hourly. To make it viable Hulleys have included the Holymoorside service in to the 170 via a detour off the main route as presumably the 170 needs that income to be viable and an out and back service to Holymoorside can't stand on its own viably.
That is a very recent change, linked with the retrenchment when the MMCs went back. Prior to that they operated the 84 and 170 separately giving 2x hourly up Chatsworth Road. Indeed, going back in time there was the 84 to Holymoorside and X70 to Bakewell serving Chatsworth Road and the 170 going up Old Road and via Old Brampton and the Farm Shop to Bakewell.

While I don't know the reason for the recent change, it feels more like they were trying to strip as much mileage as possible as they knew vehicles would be in short supply, rather than it being a commercial decision because the routes weren't viable.

The usual rule of thumb... if it made money, people would run it. Stagecoach are presumably happy that the level of service matches the demand.
As mentioned above, I fear it's more that while the demographic would support a more intensive service due to poor ENCTS rates they don't cover it financially.

Again, this makes the best use of resources and matches demand to provision. If the demand was there for all trips to run that way they would.
My understanding was that to divert via Bradwell in both directions left the round trip too long to have a reasonable recovery margin. This compromise kept a roughly hourly provision, but with roughly half having to go via and out and back to Castleton.
 
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R

RailUK Forums

Man of Kent

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5 Jul 2018
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There have been a couple of recent FOI requests for details of tendered services in Derbyshire

The response suggests contract values are considered commercially sensitive and won't be divulged. There is an interesting comment that vehicle age is to be no more than 10 years as of the contract start date - not clear if this applied to all contracts, but certainly would be one area where Hulleys would have fallen down.

The (rather badly formatted) list is here.
I've seen similar responses from other Local Transport Authorities refusing to give tender prices. But they are required to do so, under The Service Subsidy Agreements (Tendering) (England) Regulations 2002, which requires (with some minor exceptions) that they must provide:
- The amount of the successful tender (further specified as the value for the first 12 months).
- The number of tenders received.
- The amounts of the highest and lowest tenders received.

Ignorance of the law seems rather widespread these days.
 

tocguard

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16 Nov 2014
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Derbyshire
I've seen similar responses from other Local Transport Authorities refusing to give tender prices. But they are required to do so, under The Service Subsidy Agreements (Tendering) (England) Regulations 2002, which requires (with some minor exceptions) that they must provide:
- The amount of the successful tender (further specified as the value for the first 12 months).
- The number of tenders received.
- The amounts of the highest and lowest tenders received.

Ignorance of the law seems rather widespread these days.
Quite!

My FOI (despite being questioned here) was successful, but I think it helps to be more specific rather then generic in what you're asking for. The examples above are quite general/broad in what is being asked. I'm not sure if when that is the case, it gives DCC some grey area of legislation to refuse divulging such amount of info in one request?
 

Russel

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I have no idea, I heard from someone that apparently drivers were striking this morning, that’s why I asked if anyone had heard anything.

Given the state of the company at the moment, that doesn't seem like the best of ideas...
 

AWK

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6 Jan 2009
Messages
196
My understanding was that to divert via Bradwell in both directions left the round trip too long to have a reasonable recovery margin. This compromise kept a roughly hourly provision, but with roughly half having to go via and out and back to Castleton.
Indeed, hence my comment of the best compromise between demand and resources. To go via Bradwell both ways would require additional resource to maintain the current frequency, or a drop in frequency to allow for the additional running time. Out of those options the current position was viewed as the best option

Has anyone heard anything about drivers striking this morning? Noticed about half of the PVR is currently missing too…
Doubt it is a formal strike as I doubt there's a Union presence at Hulleys?

However, some drivers may have voted with their feet already... any of the other local operators running a recruitment event today?!?

Given the state of the company at the moment, that doesn't seem like the best of ideas...
Striking against what exactly?

Surely their grievance would be with DCC for cancelling the tenders?
 

Russel

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Striking against what exactly?

Surely their grievance would be with DCC for cancelling the tenders?

You're asking the wrong person, my post was simply me suggesting that striking as suggested in the posts above mine, may not be a brilliant idea at the moment, if you value job security.
 

ALEMASTER

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18 Aug 2011
Messages
402
Hulleys have failed to operate the last 173 of the day to Castleton today, I can see why they are being stripped of their contract for poor performance!
 

zkyx02

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Derby, Derbyshire
Hulleys have failed to operate the last 173 of the day to Castleton today, I can see why they are being stripped of their contract for poor performance!
Not a shock, heard many things & it seems that people don’t think they’ll last until next week.

Checking the tracking too, it seems to have ran between 5-8 mins early… good job it’s up for tender, hopefully a more reliable operator due.
 
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Teapot42

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12 Jan 2022
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677
Hulleys have failed to operate the last 173 of the day to Castleton today, I can see why they are being stripped of their contract for poor performance!
It ran as far as Tideswell.

Did you use their promise to pay for a taxi if the last bus of the day fails to turn up?
 

duncombec

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3 Sep 2014
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936
I believe these were all incorporated in to the 173 and 257 rather than remaining as stand-alone services. The data just hasn't been cleaned up. If you look at the tracking during the time these services should be running nothing is tracking under these numbers, and enough services are running that there wouldn't be buses available if they were running untracked. [...]
These routes are not from Hulleys open data (it's too buggy for bustimes to use), this data is from the Traveline database with the entries inputted by Derbyshire County Council. For some unknown reason, Derbyshire council never removed the entries and has just left them there to misinform the public. Hulleys isn't the only operator to suffer with this.
Derbyshire County Council were made aware of this 6 months ago via email, but buried their heads in the sand, then in November they were checking with the relevant teams, and I believe no one has ever heard from them since (I hope everyone is safe)
Thanks both - interestingly, the errant school services in question have disappeared in today's data update!
 

CBlue

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East Angular
It ran as far as Tideswell.

Did you use their promise to pay for a taxi if the last bus of the day fails to turn up?

Only running part of the route isn't good enough regardless, especially on the last service of the day and regardless of any other cover in place like taxis.

As mentioned several pages back in the thread, the taxi fare refund is thanks to BSIP policy from Derbyshire County Council, it doesn't appear to be something Hulleys are offering out of good will.
 

liamf656

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Derby
As mentioned several pages back in the thread, the taxi fare refund is thanks to BSIP policy from Derbyshire County Council, it doesn't appear to be something Hulleys are offering out of good will.
Which is great considering they've closed all forms of communication! I wonder how many people have got taxis then decided it's too much hassle to bother contacting the company...
 

Teapot42

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12 Jan 2022
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677
Only running part of the route isn't good enough regardless, especially on the last service of the day and regardless of any other cover in place like taxis.
Well, in this case the bus developed a fault. As there was no-one on at the time he returned to the depot.

I imagine a decision was made based on how long it would take to get another bus out, balanced against experience of whether there would be any passengers on the unaffected section without an alternative option.
 

ALEMASTER

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18 Aug 2011
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402
It ran as far as Tideswell.

Did you use their promise to pay for a taxi if the last bus of the day fails to turn up?
I saw on the tracker it ran early as far as Tideswell then just vanished. I got to the bus stop in case it turned up early and waited until well after it was scheduled and it was a no show.

No idea about taxis - how does that work? Do you phone Hulleys depot for them to arrange? It isn't clearly advertised anywhere. I was forced to change my plans as Hulleys let me down.
 

AWK

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6 Jan 2009
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Well, in this case the bus developed a fault. As there was no-one on at the time he returned to the depot.

I imagine a decision was made based on how long it would take to get another bus out, balanced against experience of whether there would be any passengers on the unaffected section without an alternative option.
A fault on the bus which allowed it to run early and return straight to the depot (rather than requiring a tow in) but which meant it couldn't continue in service...?
 

Teapot42

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No idea about taxis - how does that work? Do you phone Hulleys depot for them to arrange? It isn't clearly advertised anywhere. I was forced to change my plans as Hulleys let me down.
I'm not totally clear. The Derbyshire Bus Passengers Charter just says you will be reimbursed. Maybe worth asking Travel Derbyshire as they seem to be coordinating things.

A fault on the bus which allowed it to run early and return straight to the depot (rather than requiring a tow in) but which meant it couldn't continue in service...?
I'm told a door issue. Presumably this would be considered unsafe to continue in passenger service, yet wouldn't prevent it being driven.
 
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Flange Squeal

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I saw on the tracker it ran early as far as Tideswell then just vanished. I got to the bus stop in case it turned up early and waited until well after it was scheduled and it was a no show.

No idea about taxis - how does that work? Do you phone Hulleys depot for them to arrange? It isn't clearly advertised anywhere. I was forced to change my plans as Hulleys let me down.
According to the Hulleys of Baslow website's 'Tickets & Fares' page, under the 'Don't be Stranded' section, it says:

Don't Be Stranded

We do our very best to run our buses as advertised, but sometimes due to circumstances outside our control we’re unable to run some journeys. In line with Derbyshire County Council’s BSIP Policy, if we fail to operate the last bus of the day on any route then you can claim for a refund for a taxi fare between any two points on that route. Just email to us a copy of the taxi receipt showing the exact start and finish points of your journey, along with your name, bank sort codes and bank account number. Please allow 5 working days for your refund to be processed.
Source: https://hulleys-of-baslow.co.uk/tickets/
 

Russel

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Not a shock, heard many things & it seems that people don’t think they’ll last until next week.

It would be a shame, not seeing Hulleys around Bakewell, they've been part of the furniture for years!

But, the passengers do deserve a reliable service.
 

AWK

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6 Jan 2009
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I'm told a door issue. Presumably this would be considered unsafe to continue in passenger service, yet wouldn't prevent it being driven.
A bus running early with no passengers on suddenly develops a door fault just as it approaches the main A road that leads back to the depot. How unfortunate.

Out of interest I monitored the last 173 today through its timing points. Remember the tolerance set by the TC for timetable compliance is between 1 minute early and 5 mins late at timing points. In timing point order today's last 173 was...

1 late
4 early
5 early
6 early
4 early
5 early
2 early
3 early
7 early
7 early

It then finished at Hope, missing the last 4 stops in to Castleton.

By contrast, the last 172 from Bakewell to Matlock left Bakewell 30 late and ran up to 33 late all the way.

The last 63 from Chesterfield appears not to have run, the inbound working arriving in Chesterfield 10 late, the bus then tracking back to the depot where it arrived at 17.47, at which time it should have been on the outskirts of Clay Cross heading in service to Kelstedge.

And for completeness in terms of the DCC contracts they're losing, the last Ashbourne bound trip on the 110 left Matlock 13 late, got as much as 19 late and arrived 17 late.
 

Teapot42

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A bus running early with no passengers on suddenly develops a door fault just as it approaches the main A road that leads back to the depot. How unfortunate.
I mean, he could have just turned right rather than left at Wardlow Mires if he was that keen to get back home. There are a couple of tracking points at the last stop which I find can be a sign a bus has been at the same location for a period of time. Maybe they dropped the last passenger off in Tideswell, tried to get the doors closed and they wouldn't? The affected vehicle wasn't out today and considering how short they are at the moment I would suggest that indicates a fault.
It then finished at Hope, missing the last 4 stops in to Castleton.
Not necessarily - might just have logged the ticket machine out as the run was almost finished. Seen that plenty of times on other operators, or starting the next duty early.
By contrast, the last 172 from Bakewell to Matlock left Bakewell 30 late and ran up to 33 late all the way.
Looks like this bus meant to operate this turn broke down near Wensley and the one that ended up running it was pulled off a 272 to cover. It's a school run so positive that they did their best to get the kids moving again.
The last 63 from Chesterfield appears not to have run
Due to the amount of shuffling that happened today it's not impossible the driver was in danger of going over hours?
And for completeness in terms of the DCC contracts they're losing, the last Ashbourne bound trip on the 110 left Matlock 13 late, got as much as 19 late and arrived 17 late.
Looks like a delay on an earlier run around Matlock Bath was never fully recovered. One.network shows roadworks and the local facebook group mentions bad traffic. X17s to Wirksworth were also delayed, so likely outside their control.

Being short on spares isn't helping at the moment, but when you look at how much buses have been moved around between services you can see a lot of effort is going in to trying to keep as much running as possible.
 

m79900

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Being short on spares isn't helping at the moment, but when you look at how much buses have been moved around between services you can see a lot of effort is going in to trying to keep as much running as possible.
Will this help now? Could they retain the contracts? I doubt it.
 

Teapot42

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Will this help now? Could they retain the contracts? I doubt it.
Might be as simple as the money they get paid for the tendered services is more than they'd expect to earn from the commercial ones.

Of course this impacts reliability of the services they will be keeping which in turn puts current (and future) passengers off.

Probably a lose-lose situation at the moment.
 

liamf656

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The recent retendering is being reported on by Derbyshire Live


The council says this comes “after a long period of reliability and service issues from the current operator”.
Cllr Peter O’Brien said this was a “daily” issue and said services in the area were “dire”, with “as many buses are cancelled each day as actually run”. He said this left people “left abandoned in Sheffield, in Bakewell, in Chesterfield, in Eyam, in Hathersage, in Bradwell, in Stoney Middleton, in Baslow… the list goes on”.
Cllr Charlotte Cupit, the council’s cabinet member for highways assets and transport, said: “This is not a decision we have taken lightly and we have tried very hard to proactively support the existing operator to improve – and we know residents have been frustrated with this. However, it is not acceptable for passengers to be left at bus stops missing vital appointments, unable to get updates on services, and then missing parts of routes, which has been the case.
 

Russel

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I mean, he could have just turned right rather than left at Wardlow Mires if he was that keen to get back home. There are a couple of tracking points at the last stop which I find can be a sign a bus has been at the same location for a period of time. Maybe they dropped the last passenger off in Tideswell, tried to get the doors closed and they wouldn't? The affected vehicle wasn't out today and considering how short they are at the moment I would suggest that indicates a fault.

Not necessarily - might just have logged the ticket machine out as the run was almost finished. Seen that plenty of times on other operators, or starting the next duty early.

Looks like this bus meant to operate this turn broke down near Wensley and the one that ended up running it was pulled off a 272 to cover. It's a school run so positive that they did their best to get the kids moving again.

Due to the amount of shuffling that happened today it's not impossible the driver was in danger of going over hours?

Looks like a delay on an earlier run around Matlock Bath was never fully recovered. One.network shows roadworks and the local facebook group mentions bad traffic. X17s to Wirksworth were also delayed, so likely outside their control.

Being short on spares isn't helping at the moment, but when you look at how much buses have been moved around between services you can see a lot of effort is going in to trying to keep as much running as possible.

With respect, you're making excuses for Hulleys, DCC won't be going to the trouble and expense of retendering work for no reason.

Yes roadworks can't be helped, but having a rag-tag fleet of buses averaging over 10 years old with the exception of the two Evoras will lead to breakdowns and general unreliability...

If Hulleys are not in a position to deliver the service they are contracted to, why should the customers suffer?
 

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