Sheffield and the North West: how could services be improved?

gerryuk · Thursday at 19:47

As one of the country's largest cities, why has Sheffield got no direct services to the North West, apart from Manchester?

I see there is one direct passenger train a week from Sheffield to Carlisle, and apart from that, nothing. No direct trains to places like Preston or Blackpool or further north towards Glasgow. There are no direct trains from Sheffield to places like Chester and North Wales.

Has it always been like this?

I know that all stations cannot have direct services to everywhere, but Sheffield is not some backwater in the middle of now ware, it's one of the largest cities in the country, and people want direct services, not changing everywhere.

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Donny Dave · Thursday at 19:57

Quite possibly down to capacity, as the route to Manchester is full, along with the Cadtlefueld corridor. Also, you don't have to change everywhere to get to the North West from Sheffield. A simple same platform change at either Piccadilly or Oxford Road from either of the 2 trains an hour from Sheffield, and your able to reach Preston, Blackpool, Lancaster and Carlisle, even Scotland with the need for further changes.

Iskra · Thursday at 19:58

Because it’s an easy same platform interchange at Manchester for such services.

You are also ignoring Sheffields regular service to Liverpool, which is definitely in the North West.

A S Leib · Thursday at 19:59

gerryuk said:
As one of the country's largest cities, why has Sheffield got no direct services to the North West apart from Manchester

I think the other places in North West England which have a population of over 200,000 are in Greater Manchester (Stockport, Bolton), served directly from Sheffield (Warrington, Liverpool – twice per hour now) or with too little demand from Sheffield compared to Manchester (or Leeds, in some cases), which in theory should be a simple change.

Newcastle and Hull don't have any services to the North West apart from via Huddersfield and the Tyne Valley, and Glasgow's and Edinburgh's poor service to Liverpool has been brought up at least in one thread on here before; the focus, as with Sheffield, should be on frequent and reliable connections.

fishwomp · Thursday at 20:08

Donny Dave said:
Quite possibly down to capacity, as the route to Manchester is full, along with the Cadtlefueld corridor. Also, you don't have to change everywhere to get to the North West from Sheffield. A simple same platform change at either Piccadilly or Oxford Road from either of the 2 trains an hour from Sheffield, and your able to reach Preston, Blackpool, Lancaster and Carlisle, even Scotland with the need for further changes.

There was historically the Harwich to Blackpool until 1988 ish, and London St Pancras / Nottingham to Glasgow services - which went via S&C.

Harwich - Blackpool went to Victoria - no need for Castlefield when Victoria was a properly sized station - turned right before Ashburys and in at Philips Park Jct and down to Miles Platting.

A S Leib · Thursday at 20:19

gerryuk said:
people want direct services, not changing every ware.

People also generally want reliable services, which is difficult when there's calls to run trains to half a dozen different destinations over the same line.

Killingworth · Thursday at 22:05

There's chicken and egg. If there aren't many/any services they can't be used and that lack also exists on the Trans-Pennine road system viewed from Sheffield. It goes back to the pack horse routes and poor turnpikes. No canals attempted to cross the South Pennines. Lancashire was very much more apart from South Yorkshire and Sheffield than the mileage would suggest.

But hang on, that may no longer be true? ORR statistics taken from the Railway Data website show that very quietly Manchester is now the most booked rail destination from Sheffield, and by quite a big margin (although the stats for London look a bit weird) see; https://www.railwaydata.co.uk/odm/gbr/?dest=all&string_out=Sheffield%20[6691] Other North-West destinations? Manchester Airport and Liverpool.

Destination Region Group 2018/19 2019/20 2020/21 2021/22 2022/23 2023/24
Manchester Piccadilly North West MANCHESTER BR 398,327 437,986 94,905 424,611 441,562 443,018
London St Pancras International London LONDON BR 83,375 60,038 7,361 29,358 341,889 383,253
Leeds Yorkshire and The Humber 390,237 390,721 64,754 262,847 318,293 320,722
Doncaster Yorkshire and The Humber 227,595 241,697 61,866 237,530 246,758 276,460
Chesterfield East Midlands 285,761 267,339 47,313 172,385 196,989 207,912
Nottingham East Midlands 170,240 187,869 50,684 187,691 176,840 190,858
Barnsley Yorkshire and The Humber 186,269 201,701 46,669 141,140 165,896 186,525
Meadowhall Yorkshire and The Humber 183,809 183,051 39,015 133,130 158,032 180,289
Derby East Midlands 174,088 213,034 50,251 197,310 166,902 157,787
York Yorkshire and The Humber 175,765 192,175 28,016 130,545 126,476 120,065
Manchester Airport North West 161,469 137,552 6,751 25,525 76,138 94,085
Worksop East Midlands 79,725 90,231 18,444 66,510 79,843 90,907
Leicester East Midlands 55,995 55,984 12,219 58,717 85,541 90,537
Birmingham New Street West Midlands BIRMINGHAM BR 72,167 64,519 9,537 29,655 80,877 80,528
London Kings Cross London LONDON BR 369,590 373,310 48,328 188,481 70,110 79,249
Liverpool Lime Street North West LIVERPOOL BR 59,336 59,735 4,289 35,564 58,505 70,296

The original 1894 Midland Railway timetable for the current Hope Valley route has few passenger trains but suggests a greater consideration of those other destinations. Is there substantial demand today for direct services to other destinations? I'd suggest not enough to justify adding a few direct services when connections at Piccadilly (and Stockport for Chester) from the existing half hourly fairly fast services are of more use to more people.

Add to that the increasing reliability risks of any extended services through the Manchester maze!

30907 · Thursday at 22:15

fishwomp said:
There was historically the Harwich to Blackpool until 1988 ish, and London St Pancras / Nottingham to Glasgow services - which went via S&C.

Harwich - Blackpool went to Victoria - no need for Castlefield when Victoria was a properly sized station - turned right before Ashburys and in at Philips Park Jct and down to Miles Platting.

Harwich-Scotland rather than Blackpool for a couple of years in the early 80s.
Before the regular Norwich-Liverpool and Cleethorpes-Manchester were introduced, Sheffield-Manchester trains in the 80s had a whole raft of origins and destinations, cleverly cobbling together various shorter distance services to make through trains at minimal extra cost (class 31 plus 4 mostly).

sheff1 · Thursday at 22:19

Apart from Manchester and Liverpool, which are both well served by direct trains, I doubt there is anywhere in the NW that hoards of people from Sheffield want to travel to, other than Manchester Airport.

Why go to Chester when you can go to York, or Blackpool when you can go to Cleethorpes ?

Back in the day there did used to be direct summer Saturday trains to Blackpool and North Wales but that sort of thing has long since disappeared countrywide.

Llandudno · Thursday at 23:02

sheff1 said:
Apart from Manchester and Liverpool, which are both well served by direct trains, I doubt there is anywhere in the NW that hoards of people from Sheffield want to travel to, other than Manchester Airport.

Why go to Chester when you can go to York, or Blackpool when you can go to Cleethorpes ?

Back in the day there did used to be direct summer Saturday trains to Blackpool and North Wales but that sort of thing has long since disappeared countrywide.

Cleethorpes……!!!

Bridlington or Scarborough maybe…?

Class15 · Thursday at 23:07

A S Leib said:
People also generally want reliable services, which is difficult when there's calls to run trains to half a dozen different destinations over the same line.

The issue is that connections are frequently not held and passengers often find a direct service more reliable.

BeijingDave · Thursday at 23:18

sheff1 said:
Apart from Manchester and Liverpool, which are both well served by direct trains, I doubt there is anywhere in the NW that hoards of people from Sheffield want to travel to, other than Manchester Airport.

Why go to Chester when you can go to York, or Blackpool when you can go to Cleethorpes ?

Back in the day there did used to be direct summer Saturday trains to Blackpool and North Wales but that sort of thing has long since disappeared countrywide.

In the opposite direction, there was good reason for someone from Warrington and surrounding towns to want to travel to Sheffield, especially in the 1980s and 90s:
Sheffield Wednesday were usually in the top flight. Sheffield United were sometimes in the top flight. (huge football crowds coming from Liverpool and Manchester)
Rugby league crowds from Warrington, Wigan, Widnes, St Helens, Salford when Sheffield were a well-supported top flight team.
Before the opening of the Trafford Centre, Meadowhall was a top shopping destination for a lot of people from the North West (I remember it well).
"Why go to Chester when you can go to York?" is to me a bit like asking "Why go to Tenerife when you can go to Mallorca every year?" Leisure travellers do like variety.

In short, Sheffield has always been a pain to get to due to geographical reasons. From Warrington, it is just as easy to take the M62 all the way up to the edge of Leeds and go back down the M1 as it is to use the Woodhead Pass or Snake Pass. Railways have been equally difficult to build over that terrain, I believe.

But the main problem is probably paths through Manchester Piccadilly, which would have been less of a problem if there had never been the short-sighted decision to demolish most of Victoria and concentrate services through Piccadilly (now being unwound somewhat).

gerryuk · Thursday at 23:28

sheff1 said:
Apart from Manchester and Liverpool, which are both well served by direct trains, I doubt there is anywhere in the NW that hoards of people from Sheffield want to travel to, other than Manchester Airport.

Why go to Chester when you can go to York, or Blackpool when you can go to Cleethorpes ?

Back in the day there did used to be direct summer Saturday trains to Blackpool and North Wales but that sort of thing has long since disappeared countrywide.

According to railway data https://www.railwaydata.co.uk/flows/gbr/ the number of people who travelled from Leeds to Blackpool last year was 26,885 only 4,426 travelled from Sheffield. The numbers from Leeds to Preston was 27,093 and Sheffield was 7.119. The numbers for Chester was Leeds 20,758 and Sheffield was 5,295.
Those figures suggest to me that people cannot be bothered travelling from Sheffield by rail to the North West due to the hassle of changing trains, even York which is a lot smaller than Sheffield gets more pax to places like Preston and Blackpool.
You could also argue that Leeds has a bigger population than Sheffield and yet more people travel to Birmingham New St from Sheffield than Leeds or even Nottingham.

Cross Fell · Thursday at 23:38

Killingworth said:
The original 1894 Midland Railway timetable for the current Hope Valley route has few passenger trains but suggests a greater consideration of those other destinations. Is there substantial demand today for direct services to other destinations? I'd suggest not enough to justify adding a few direct services when connections at Piccadilly (and Stockport for Chester) from the existing half hourly fairly fast services are of more use to more people.

Add to that the increasing reliability risks of any extended services through the Manchester maze!

View attachment 178541

What an excellent poster, thankyou.

Note the Midland's use of Through Carriages to provide extra destinations, I suppose we'd call it Portion working nowadays!

Mat17 · Friday at 05:18

I totally agree with the points made about changing trains being a hassle. It is. I've seen too many people miss connections, even ones that weren't particularly tight, and then there's the advance ticketing issues and TOC specific tickets etc. A minefield.

So, I try and go on direct services wherever possible, even if it means driving to a different station so I can take a direct service from there. The Hope Valley line isn't renowned for its punctuality or reliability. I avoid it as much as possible.

fishwomp · Friday at 07:36

gerryuk said:
.. people cannot be bothered travelling from Sheffield by rail to the North West due to the hassle of changing trains, even York which is a lot smaller than Sheffield gets more pax to places like Preston and Blackpool.

The other aspect is that because it is a through train, from York to Blackpool, it therefore likely has special offers, pools of advanced tickets etc.

faltskog36abba · Friday at 16:52

30907 said:
Harwich-Scotland rather than Blackpool for a couple of years in the early 80s.
Before the regular Norwich-Liverpool and Cleethorpes-Manchester were introduced, Sheffield-Manchester trains in the 80s had a whole raft of origins and destinations, cleverly cobbling together various shorter distance services to make through trains at minimal extra cost (class 31 plus 4 mostly).

The Harwich Blackpool used to run on Saturday's in the 86/7 timetable, As well as Scotland.

JonathanH · Friday at 18:06

If you go back to the introduction of 156s in the late 1980s, trains from East Anglia (Cambridge, Ipswich, Norwich) systematically went to various destinations in the Midlands and North West (Birmingham, Liverpool, Blackpool, Barrow) with the North West Trains going via Sheffield and the Hope Valley, but Blackpool has now been electrified and not many of the trains went to Barrow. Concentrating the service on Liverpool is operationally far more appropriate and in many ways easier for passengers to understand. Manchester Airport is clearly a factor because that is where Blackpool and Barrow services go, but anywhere in the North West can be reached changing in Manchester.

Killingworth · Friday at 18:10

Mat17 said:
I totally agree with the points made about changing trains being a hassle. It is. I've seen too many people miss connections, even ones that weren't particularly tight, and then there's the advance ticketing issues and TOC specific tickets etc. A minefield.

So, I try and go on direct services wherever possible, even if it means driving to a different station so I can take a direct service from there. The Hope Valley line isn't renowned for its punctuality or reliability. I avoid it as much as possible.

Therein lies the problem. Reliability and frequency of long distance services. 2 semi-fast trains per hour between Sheffield and Piccadilly. Both pick up delays between Liverpool and Piccadilly coming east. EMR pick up delays from Norwich to Sheffield and TPE picks up delays from Cleethorpes running west. Every day Northern's westbound stopping services are liable to delay by late running TPE trains - 3 so far today.

Result? Potentially unreliable connections in both Sheffield and Manchester.

Would that be helped by adding a third fast service going to different Lancahire destination? That won't happen any time soon because there are no available paths through Manchester but if there were a major recast of multiple timetables across the country would be required

Would it be helped by diverting one of the fast paths to different destinations in some hours? Surely regular connections at clock face timings help more users than a scattergun approach to allow a few to enjoy a direct train at times that may not suit them anyway?

Iskra · Friday at 18:22

Killingworth said:
Therein lies the problem. Reliability and frequency of long distance services. 2 semi-fast trains per hour between Sheffield and Piccadilly. Both pick up delays between Liverpool and Piccadilly coming east. EMR pick up delays from Norwich to Sheffield and TPE picks up delays from Cleethorpes running west. Every day Northern's westbound stopping services are liable to delay by late running TPE trains - 3 so far today.

Result? Potentially unreliable connections in both Sheffield and Manchester.

Would that be helped by adding a third fast service going to different Lancahire destination? That won't happen any time soon because there are no available paths through Manchester but if there were a major recast of multiple timetables across the country would be required

Would it be helped by diverting one of the fast paths to different destinations in some hours? Surely regular connections at clock face timings help more users than a scattergun approach to allow a few to enjoy a direct train at times that may not suit them anyway?

How are you fitting another service down Castlefield?

Adding unnecessary additional direct trains to random places is the last thing the Hope Valley line or Castlefield corridor need. As you observe, they already can’t cope.

Apart from the odd short train, there is (at last) nothing wrong for the majority of rail users travelling from Sheffield to the North West.

The only obvious scope for improvement would be using a bi-mode unit in the future to extend Hazel Grove terminators towards Sheffield if it was felt necessary. Assuming you can get them through Dore and into Sheffield that is…

Killingworth · Friday at 18:45

Iskra said:
How are you fitting another service down Castlefield?

Adding unnecessary additional direct trains to random places is the last thing the Hope Valley line or Castlefield corridor need. As you observe, they already can’t cope.

Apart from the odd short train, there is (at last) nothing wrong for the majority of rail users travelling from Sheffield to the North West.

The only obvious scope for improvement would be using a bi-mode unit in the future to extend Hazel Grove terminators towards Sheffield if it was felt necessary. Assuming you can get them through Dore and into Sheffield that is…

Exactly!

Although extending the New Mills diesel terminator would be slightly easier.

GreenFlag · Friday at 19:44

This feels like one of those situations where you can't please everyone by having a direct service to everywhere. You could redirect one of the Liverpool services to Preston etc, but then you're just reducing capacity between Liverpool and Manchester.

In reality, Sheffield has direct services to every corner of the country and multiple trains per hour to Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Birmingham, Derby, Nottingham and York which between them give one stop connections to hundreds of destinations. Compare that to the counties of North Yorkshire, East Yorkshire and Lincolnshire which have a combined population of 2.8m and just one station between them with a direct service to Birmingham, and I'd argue that Sheffield isn't that badly served.

Iskra · Friday at 19:51

GreenFlag said:
This feels like one of those situations where you can't please everyone by having a direct service to everywhere. You could redirect one of the Liverpool services to Preston etc, but then you're just reducing capacity between Liverpool and Manchester.

In reality, Sheffield has direct services to every corner of the country and multiple trains per hour to Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Birmingham, Derby, Nottingham and York which between them give one stop connections to hundreds of destinations. Compare that to the counties of North Yorkshire, East Yorkshire and Lincolnshire which have a combined population of 2.8m and just one station between them with a direct service to Birmingham, and I'd argue that Sheffield isn't that badly served.

By diverting to Preston, all that you would be doing is changing the point at which people change from Manchester (same platform) to Preston (probably not same platform), so you’d make the experience worse for most passengers. You’d also be reducing capacity to Liverpool as you point out, and downgrading the service to by far the biggest two cities in the North West that people of Sheffield (and beyond) wish to travel to.

Pretty much every major place in the North West is connected to Sheffield via one change at Manchester P or Leeds, so it’s hardly a priority.

fishwomp · Friday at 22:26

GreenFlag said:
In reality, Sheffield has direct services to every corner of the country and multiple trains per hour to Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Birmingham, Derby, Nottingham and York which between them give one stop connections to hundreds of destinations.

Well, Cross Country have been trying their darndest to not have two per hour to Birmingham. The May timetable still doesn't restore them all IIRC. Same would be the case for Sheffield - York, but there is an occasional parliamentary train to York via Pontefract.

BeijingDave · Saturday at 02:56

Sheffield-Huddersfield-Manchester Victoria and onwards?

Mat17 · Saturday at 09:28

Before I drove, I used to travel via Huddersfield to Manchester rather than via the Hope Valley. The Standedge route is much quicker from North Sheffield, especially for the communities near one of the Penistone line stations. Totally prefer it.

That said, since I started driving I tend to use Dinting as my railhead for the North West, which cuts another half hour from my journey time.

gerryuk · Saturday at 10:47

Iskra said:
By diverting to Preston, all that you would be doing is changing the point at which people change from Manchester (same platform) to Preston (probably not same platform), so you’d make the experience worse for most passengers. You’d also be reducing capacity to Liverpool as you point out, and downgrading the service to by far the biggest two cities in the North West that people of Sheffield (and beyond) wish to travel to.

Pretty much every major place in the North West is connected to Sheffield via one change at Manchester P or Leeds, so it’s hardly a priority.

What about sending the Cleethorpes to Preston / Blackpool via Barnsley and Huddersfield? Those services only recently went from Manchester Picc to Liverpool, so it would hardly be a downgrade. Cleethorpes, Grimsby and Doncaster would get direct trains to Barnsley, Huddersfield and towns in the North West and visa versa, and still call at Manchester, seems like a win, win to me.

Killingworth · Saturday at 10:59

Mat17 said:
Before I drove, I used to travel via Huddersfield to Manchester rather than via the Hope Valley. The Standedge route is much quicker from North Sheffield, especially for the communities near one of the Penistone line stations. Totally prefer it.

In similar fashion, living in South Sheffield for over 40 years, I've never taken a train to London or the South-West from Sheffield. Chesterfield every time. Going North I've sometimes used Doncaster. Getting into Sheffield centre takes longer than Chesterfield and Doncaster isn't very much longer. However parking is extortionate in Sheffield to swing the decision!

gerryuk said:
What about sending the Cleethorpes to Preston / Blackpool via Barnsley and Huddersfield? Those services only recently went from Manchester Picc to Liverpool, so it would hardly be a downgrade. Cleethorpes, Grimsby and Doncaster would get direct trains to Barnsley, Huddersfield and towns in the North West and visa versa, and still call at Manchester, seems like a win, win to me.

Seems like a lose, lose to to me, and most of those using the current TPE service!

nr758123 · Saturday at 13:11

gerryuk said:
What about sending the Cleethorpes to Preston / Blackpool via Barnsley and Huddersfield? Those services only recently went from Manchester Picc to Liverpool, so it would hardly be a downgrade. Cleethorpes, Grimsby and Doncaster would get direct trains to Barnsley, Huddersfield and towns in the North West and visa versa, and still call at Manchester, seems like a win, win to me.

Huddersfield to Stalybridge is full. The same could be said about Victoria to Bolton & beyond. Which of the existing services would you remove in order to make way for your proposed Cleethorpes to Blackpool via a circuitous route with at least two reversals.

Killingworth said:
Seems like a lose, lose to to me, and most of those using the current TPE service!

Agree.

Iskra · Saturday at 13:52

gerryuk said:
What about sending the Cleethorpes to Preston / Blackpool via Barnsley and Huddersfield? Those services only recently went from Manchester Picc to Liverpool, so it would hardly be a downgrade. Cleethorpes, Grimsby and Doncaster would get direct trains to Barnsley, Huddersfield and towns in the North West and visa versa, and still call at Manchester, seems like a win, win to me.

Such a service would be an unmitigated disaster; combining the Castlefield Corridor, Transpennine Core, Huddersfield station throat, single line sections on the Penistone Line, an already congested Southern Hallam line, crossing Wincobank junction, the busy Meadowhall-Sheffield corridor, the already congested Sheffield Station, the busy Meadowhall-Sheffield corridor again, Swinton junction, crossing the ECML at Doncaster and the single track section East of Grimsby. That would probably be a strong contender for the most unreliable service ever. All that to deliver a slow journey, with many time-consuming reversals to places that there’s no obvious demand to/from. Probably the worst idea I’ve ever seen on these forums. It might make for a nice railtour though

Destination	Region	Group	2018/19	2019/20	2020/21	2021/22	2022/23	2023/24
Manchester Piccadilly	North West	MANCHESTER BR	398,327	437,986	94,905	424,611	441,562	443,018
London St Pancras International	London	LONDON BR	83,375	60,038	7,361	29,358	341,889	383,253
Leeds	Yorkshire and The Humber		390,237	390,721	64,754	262,847	318,293	320,722
Doncaster	Yorkshire and The Humber		227,595	241,697	61,866	237,530	246,758	276,460
Chesterfield	East Midlands		285,761	267,339	47,313	172,385	196,989	207,912
Nottingham	East Midlands		170,240	187,869	50,684	187,691	176,840	190,858
Barnsley	Yorkshire and The Humber		186,269	201,701	46,669	141,140	165,896	186,525
Meadowhall	Yorkshire and The Humber		183,809	183,051	39,015	133,130	158,032	180,289
Derby	East Midlands		174,088	213,034	50,251	197,310	166,902	157,787
York	Yorkshire and The Humber		175,765	192,175	28,016	130,545	126,476	120,065
Manchester Airport	North West		161,469	137,552	6,751	25,525	76,138	94,085
Worksop	East Midlands		79,725	90,231	18,444	66,510	79,843	90,907
Leicester	East Midlands		55,995	55,984	12,219	58,717	85,541	90,537
Birmingham New Street	West Midlands	BIRMINGHAM BR	72,167	64,519	9,537	29,655	80,877	80,528
London Kings Cross	London	LONDON BR	369,590	373,310	48,328	188,481	70,110	79,249
Liverpool Lime Street	North West	LIVERPOOL BR	59,336	59,735	4,289	35,564	58,505	70,296

Sheffield and the North West: how could services be improved?

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