1963 Holiday Excursion Route From Lancashire to Bridlington

[Andy873]

I was reading a book yesterday called "Lost Railways of Lancashire", and I was slightly surprised to read that in 1963 there were two holiday trains from Padiham to Bridlington. Now what route would this train have taken to Bridlington?

From Padiham (going east) you would run up to Rose Grove, but from here you have two choices:

1. Come off the East Lancs line at Gannow Junction and over the copy pit line to Hebden Bridge.
2. Carry on the East Lancs line and call at Burnley, Nelson, Colne and go on to Skipton.

Route 2 takes in more towns than route 1 - which route out of Lancashire do you think it took?

It's very unlikely the train started at Padiham, where do you think it originated from - Blackpool?, Preston?

Looking at a BR map from the 1963 public time table (coming back to Lancashire) from Leeds you have again two choices - straight up to Skipton or take in Bradford and the copy pit line.

Leeds - would the train going east to Bridlington have gone via Selby or to Scarborough first?

On a side note, there was also one train from Padiham going the other way to Llandudno. By the way, a 2nd class return ticket from Padiham to either Bridlington or Llandudno was 33 shillings.

 

[Gloster]

I can’t say which route they would take, but it is quite possible that if there were two trains they would take two routes. However, as the only major station on the Copy Pit route was Burnley Manchester Road, they could just as well serve Burnley by a call at Central. On the other hand the line beyond Colne did not have a very high capacity and so one train might go via Copy Pit because of this. A lot would depend on how much traffic was expected from Nelson, Colne, etc.

It might start at Blackburn or, to avoid it getting filled up with people from Blackburn, run empty to the first station on the Loop and start there. It also might start from further back: coming up from Bolton or across from Preston. In these cases it also might start at a minor station, for example Bamber Bridge on the Preston line.

These summer Saturday trains often didn’t make any public intermediate calls: a train might (hypothetical example) not call from Burnley to Seamer or Hessle. The train would be quite likely to avoid Bradford by either the north curve at Shipley or the Bowling Junction-Laisterdyke Junction line, pass around Leeds and also avoid Hull Paragon via the Anlaby Road-West Parade curve. It is also possible that one train got to Bridlington via a reversal at Scarborough, which would also serve Scarborough and Filey, including possibly the holiday camp which had its own station (see the .disused-stations.org.uk website).

 

[Magdalia]

The train could be one of two kinds. It could be a day excursion, or it could be an additional train running at the start or end of the local Wakes Week. Do you know when that was in the Padiham area?

Regarding route it is important to remember that old habits from the Big 4 and even pre grouping days had not died. I would expect the train to stick to the L&Y for as long as possible, following the main line over Copy Pit then Hebden Bridge, Mirfield and Wakefield Kirkgate to reach the NER at Altofts Junction. Once on the NER it would probably go via Selby and Market Weighton, with a loco change at Gascoigne Wood.

 

[Andy873]

Thanks for the replies.

The train could be one of two kinds. It could be a day excursion, or it could be an additional train running at the start or end of the local Wakes Week. Do you know when that was in the Padiham area?

Regarding route it is important to remember that old habits from the Big 4 and even pre grouping days had not died. I would expect the train to stick to the L&Y for as long as possible, following the main line over Copy Pit then Hebden Bridge, Mirfield and Wakefield Kirkgate to reach the NER at Altofts Junction. Once on the NER it would probably go via Selby and Market Weighton, with a loco change at Gascoigne Wood.

Unfortunately the book doesn't give even an approximate date, it's a summer one that's for sure. The most likely dates are the town's Wakes weeks holidays, back in 1963 (and say running SO) that would make 6th & 13th of July, that's only a guess - but it does tie in with just the two trains.

From what's being suggested, it could very well have gone the copy pit route. Padiham had the same town holidays as Burnley I believe, and so a stop at Burnley Manchester Road station would allow the people of Burnley to catch this one on the way.

As for carrying on the East Lancs to Colne and Skipton - old habits persisted, it was traditional for many trains to start / terminate at Colne as it was built by the L&Y. The route from Colne to Skipton was built by the L&NW.

Day out or holiday service? good question, but at 33 shillings per person in 1963 (not cheap) it was probably a holiday one.

The starting point - could indeed be Bolton running ECS to Padiham, the station there could cope with 9 non-corridor carriages. I know there were several ECS trains from Colne to Bolton from my 1963 (winter) WTT, so I can't see why one could not come up the other way.

I've had a look at a summer WTT covering an area from Hebden Bridge in the east, Bradford & Leeds in the north, and Hull & Goole in the west but there's no mention of this train to Bridlington, probably because it only ran twice or perhaps another WTT might show it? that said, my 1962 WTT summer one does show a different train that only ran twice...

EDIT: Just re-reading Stuart Taylor's book about the loop line, he does state that in 1962 despite the carriage shed at Great Harwood had lost its roof, during busy summer periods the carriage shed area at GH was still used to stable rolling stock for passenger services starting at Blackburn to places like Llandudno - why not coaching stock for this train starting at Padiham?

 

[30907]

Hope it was corridor stock by 1963 for a run to Brid

Selby to Driffield was still open for excursion traffic then (finally closed 1965) so Magdalia's route seems the most likely.

 

[Gloster]

Colne-Skipton was Midland, not L&NWR.

There were carriage sidings at Lostock Hall, which is why I mentioned Bamber Bridge as a possibility. Although I mentioned Bolton, it is just one of a number of possibilities.

I suspect that there were two types of holiday train. One was for those going away for the whole week to whichever resort or group of resorts were the habitual destination of those having Wakes Week(s) off: out one Saturday, back the next. These possibly ran on three consecutive weekends if the Wakes Week was a fortnight: out only one Saturday, both ways the next and back only on the third.

Alternatively, there would have been day excursions for those remaining at home. Bridlington sounds a bit far for one of these, even allowing that people accepted early starts and late returns, and has the disadvantage for the railway of involving another Region.

The Bridlington train might be in the working timetable, rather than being in weekly notices, if it ran every year. However, it could be that a pathway was indicated over a core section, say Gannow Junction-Copy Pit Regional Boundary, and this was used by trains from a number of locations with the timings to Gannow Junction provided in weekly notices. The same might apply to the ECS.

I would reckon that, at the least, any train would serve all stations on the Loop. It would only start at Padiham if going west.

 

[6Gman]

Okay, I have access to the Special Traffic Notice for Saturday 11 July 1953 for the Padiham Loop which offers the following:

A 1218 Halfex (Half day excursion) Colne-Blackpool C, calls included Padiham 1248, Gt Harwood 1257 returning as a 2005 Blackpool C-Colne, Gt Harwood 2109 and Padiham 21AE17 (the AE indicating the addition or detaching of an assisting engine).
A 1600 Evex (Evening Excursion) Padiham-Blackpool C, calling at Simonstone 1604, Gt Harwood 1612, returning as a 2245 from Blackpool, Gt Harwood 2354, Simonstone 0003, Padihmam 0006.

There were two westbound "Period" trains (period excursion? i.e. your ticket allows you travel out on this train on this date, return a week later on that train?). One from Colne to Fleetwood, calling Padiham at 0803 and "Return period" from Filey Camp - so not far from Bridlington - calling at Padiham 1432 and Simonstone 1436 en route to Blackburn and coming via Skipton.

In the other direction there were two booked Fleetwood-Accrington paths (1015 & 1310) diverted to Colne via Padiham (at 1126 and 1437), a Relief Llandudno-Colne (Padiham 1251), a Relief Morecambe-Colne (Padiham 1251), a Relief Southport-Colne (Padiham 1211), a Relief Blackpool-Colne (Padiham 1220), two Reliefs from Fleetwood to Colne (1130 & 1930) (Padiham 1241 and 2040), and a 1220 Wyre Dock-Colne Relief (Padiham 1342)!

So, proper busy! Given the balance of trains I assume this was the end of the Wakes.

Incidentally on the same date there were no fewer than 20 additional trains (from all manner of places) northbound between Bury and Accrington.

A different world.

 

[Andy873]

Colne-Skipton was Midland, not L&NWR.

Of course it was - not the first time I've got something simple wrong!

A 1218 Halfex (Half day excursion) Colne-Blackpool C, calls included Padiham 1248, Gt Harwood 1257 returning as a 2005 Blackpool C-Colne, Gt Harwood 2109 and Padiham 21AE17 (the AE indicating the addition or detaching of an assisting engine).
A 1600 Evex (Evening Excursion) Padiham-Blackpool C, calling at Simonstone 1604, Gt Harwood 1612, returning as a 2245 from Blackpool, Gt Harwood 2354, Simonstone 0003, Padihmam 0006.

There were two westbound "Period" trains (period excursion? i.e. your ticket allows you travel out on this train on this date, return a week later on that train?). One from Colne to Fleetwood, calling Padiham at 0803 and "Return period" from Filey Camp - so not far from Bridlington - calling at Padiham 1432 and Simonstone 1436 en route to Blackburn and coming via Skipton.

In the other direction there were two booked Fleetwood-Accrington paths (1015 & 1310) diverted to Colne via Padiham (at 1126 and 1437), a Relief Llandudno-Colne (Padiham 1251), a Relief Morecambe-Colne (Padiham 1251), a Relief Southport-Colne (Padiham 1211), a Relief Blackpool-Colne (Padiham 1220), two Reliefs from Fleetwood to Colne (1130 & 1930) (Padiham 1241 and 2040), and a 1220 Wyre Dock-Colne Relief (Padiham 1342)!

@6Gman thank you so much for the information, that's of value to me. It also confirms these trains "hidden" from my WTT's appeared in Special Traffic Notices which is what I've been told. It's a pity to me I don't have access to them, would love to see one for sure.

So, proper busy! Given the balance of trains I assume this was the end of the Wakes.

It was certainly busier than my WTT's suggested to me, especially in summer. The Wakes weeks holidays gets a little confusing - Great Harwood had the same weeks as Blackburn (the first two weeks of July), Padiham had the last two weeks of July.

11th July suggests a short cross over period from Great Harwood's holidays to Padiham's.

Halfex (Half day excursion)

I'm glad you explained Halfex, I was re-reading one of Stuart Taylor's books because and there is a photo of part of a timetable in it which mentions Halfex, I haven't seen that term in my WTT's so I am presuming these just appeared in Special Traffic Notices? presume you could only travel at a certain period? or day time only?

Llandudno is also mentioned. thanks again, that solves that one for me.

Incidentally on the same date there were no fewer than 20 additional trains (from all manner of places) northbound between Bury and Accrington.

Doesn't surprise me, one of the main reasons the loop line was built was as a diversion route avoiding Accrington for that very same reason.

 

[6Gman]

I'm glad you explained Halfex, I was re-reading one of Stuart Taylor's books because and there is a photo of part of a timetable in it which mentions Halfex, I haven't seen that term in my WTT's so I am presuming these just appeared in Special Traffic Notices? presume you could only travel at a certain period? or day time only?

You could travel only on that specific service, out and back. So the 1248 from Padiham, and back on the 2005. And if you missed either your ticket was invalid on any other service.

 

[Andy873]

You could travel only on that specific service, out and back. So the 1248 from Padiham, and back on the 2005. And if you missed either your ticket was invalid on any other service.

Interesting, so you had better make sure you caught the specific two trains.

 

[30907]

Interesting, so you had better make sure you caught the specific two trains.

That's the nature of excursion trains

 

[6Gman]

Interesting, so you had better make sure you caught the specific two trains.

When we used to travel on BR mystery excursions back in the 1970s it was striking how they always seemed to depart spot on time for the return journey. Given how cheap the fares were we reckoned BR made their money from the people who were late getting back to the station and had to buy new tickets to get home!

 

[Andy873]

Thanks everyone.

Question please:

Where on the journey from East Lancs to Bridlington would you suggest crew / engine changes took place in Yorkshire? it would of course depend on the route taken, could you list a few likely candidates for me?

I'm writing an article about wakes week holiday excursion trains and would like to mention crew / engine changes (possible locations of).

Mirfield perhaps? Normanton? etc.

I know the Rose Grove crews knew the route to Mirfield well as it was the location for coal going into Lancashire.

 

[Bevan Price]

Thanks everyone.

Question please:

Where on the journey from East Lancs to Bridlington would you suggest crew / engine changes took place in Yorkshire? it would of course depend on the route taken, could you list a few likely candidates for me?

I'm writing an article about wakes week holiday excursion trains and would like to mention crew / engine changes (possible locations of).

Mirfield perhaps? Normanton? etc.

I know the Rose Grove crews knew the route to Mirfield well as it was the location for coal going into Lancashire.

Locos would quite probably run throughout, with crew changes at or near places with a steam loco depot, e.g. Wakefield Kirkgate, Normanton, Leeds or York for anything routed that way. In the opposite direction, Eastern Class B1s reached both the Lancashire & North Wales coasts. "Traction Knowledge" of individual classes did not normally apply to steam locos.

 

[Magdalia]

Locos would quite probably run throughout, with crew changes at or near places with a steam loco depot, e.g. Wakefield Kirkgate, Normanton, Leeds or York for anything routed that way. In the opposite direction, Eastern Class B1s reached both the Lancashire & North Wales coasts. "Traction Knowledge" of individual classes did not normally apply to steam locos.

Eastern B1s did reach the Lancashire and North Wales coasts, but mainly on trains from the Sheffield area. My research suggests that these were nearer to being the exceptions, with many inter-regional trains changing locos at or near to regional boundaries. For example, trains from the Midlands to Bridlington or Scarborough usually changed engines somewhere in South Yorkshire such as Rotherham, Doncaster or Gascoigne Wood.

 

[Andy873]

Thanks, that's very interesting what you both tell me.

Realistically, how far in miles would a crew normally go, 30 miles, 40?

I guess it would depend on several things such as:
Route knowledge, rest periods, and on top of all of this of course is the fact some routes that might have been taken no longer exist.

And if a crew changes over at say station X, how do they get back to their MPD? was this factored in? surely?

 

[6Gman]

Thanks, that's very interesting what you both tell me.

Realistically, how far in miles would a crew normally go, 30 miles, 40?

I guess it would depend on several things such as:
Route knowledge, rest periods, and on top of all of this of course is the fact some routes that might have been taken no longer exist.

And if a crew changes over at say station X, how do they get back to their MPD? was this factored in? surely?

To start to answer your questions.

How far in miles would depend on speed! There were also lodging turns where traincrew worked a full shift on a single journey; slept overnight generally in a railway hostel; and then worked back the following day (but not on excursions and the like). The longest, hardest of these was probably the Crewe jobs that worked through overnight to Perth. Tough for the driver, tougher still on the fireman! On more conventional work 100 miles in each direction would not be unusual.

Traincrew working excursions would normally return as passengers (known informally as "on the cushions") unless there happened to be an unbalanced return working they could cover.

 

[Magdalia]

Realistically, how far in miles would a crew normally go, 30 miles, 40?

On more conventional work 100 miles in each direction would not be unusual.

On express passenger trains 100 miles there and 100 miles back is a good rough guide. Long after the end of steam traincrew were paid mileage if they drove more than 200 miles.

One of the reasons why Sheffield area locos and crews tended to work through to/from the seaside destinations was that they were mostly roughly 100 miles away.

Given the distance from Blackburn/Burnley to Scarborough/Bridlington I think it is unlikely that traincrews would have worked throughout, especially as going over a Pennine summit would be involved.

 

[30907]

Traincrew working excursions would normally return as passengers (known informally as "on the cushions") unless there happened to be an unbalanced return working they could cover.

Alternatively, they might earn a fair bit in overtime by working out and back, with several hours at destination (as was tragically the case at Eltham WH).

On express passenger trains 100 miles there and 100 miles back is a good rough guide. Long after the end of steam traincrew were paid mileage if they drove more than 200 miles.

Given the distance from Blackburn/Burnley to Scarborough/Bridlington I think it is unlikely that traincrews would have worked throughout

I agree a crew change would have been likely if not a fresh loco.

 

[Andy873]

Thanks again for that.

I agree a crew change would have been likely if not a fresh loco.

Okay, if we work on the premiss that this does take place at station X and the new engine/crew carry on to say Scarborough or Bridlington, when they get there what would happen with the coaching stock (let me explain)...

If we take the 8.05 Blackburn - Scarborough, an unadvertised SO wakes week holiday train for example, it ran (from various starting points - not always Blackburn) one time only from that starting point. The return journey was the following Saturday.

Would the carriages be stabled at say Scarborough for a week? or run ECS back to East Lancs?

 

[6Gman]

They would normally stable at Scarborough then work back the following week if there was no other back working.

The "if" is because carriage diagrams could be complicated things and stock didn't necessarily work in the way you might expect. So the Blackburn-Scarborough might then work a Saturday evening Scarborough-Manchester and the following week's Scarborough-Blackburn might be worked by a Liverpool-Scarborough the following Friday!

Unless the carriage diagrams - and any amendments for those weeks - have survived (which is very unlikely) we will never know for certain.

 

[Gloster]

Thanks again for that.


Okay, if we work on the premiss that this does take place at station X and the new engine/crew carry on to say Scarborough or Bridlington, when they get there what would happen with the coaching stock (let me explain)...

If we take the 8.05 Blackburn - Scarborough, an unadvertised SO wakes week holiday train for example, it ran (from various starting points - not always Blackburn) one time only from that starting point. The return journey was the following Saturday.

Would the carriages be stabled at say Scarborough for a week? or run ECS back to East Lancs?

Normally coaches would be stabled at the destination or at least a station nearby: as mentioned above, the Cleethorpes-Exmouth coaches were stabled at Littleham. Some sets would be used for return workings later in the day to roughly the same area as they arrived from, although this was really only practical for early arrivals: hypothetical example, an arrival from Blackburn might work back to Stockport. Local or suburban sets might need to be worked back to cover their Monday to Friday duties, although if weekday loadings were reduced due to the holidays they might be spared by creative use of the remaining sets and spend a week at the seaside.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Some sets would be used for return workings later in the day to roughly the same area as they arrived from...

That makes some sense. Presumably if one mill town was just about to start its Wakes Week, another, nearby in the locality, town, might well have been finishing theirs.

 

[Andy873]

Thanks everyone for all your help on this!

I'm now in the process of finishing my writeup regarding Wakes week holiday excursion from East Lancs in the early 1960's.

Once again, many thanks, I now have a much clearer picture of it all.