24-Hour London Services

[wnr1990]

Do you think we will ever see more 24-hour services around ondon? It's always struck me as odd that the only "true" 24-hour service we have in the UK (as far as I know) is on Thameslink and Paddington-Reading, and that's with quite big gaps between.

A lot of towns and districts around London get their last evening trains pitifully early (e.g. the last train to Weybridge, which is always very busy, departs London at 23:48).

Now I know since Covid there have been big problems with lack of staff, so is this just a pipe dream or are there plans to add more all-night services?

 

[JonathanH]

The railway takes a fairly reasonable view that there isn't a lot of demand for 24 hour railway services. Even the trains on Thameslink aren't really that busy overnight.

A lot of towns and districts around London get their last evening trains pitifully early (e.g. the last train to Weybridge, which is always very busy, departs London at 23:48).

There is a 00:09 from Waterloo to Weybridge on weekdays, and a 00:20 on Saturdays. Is that pitifully early? Those haven't run this week due to industrial action.

The first train from Waterloo is five hours later.

It is interesting to observe how much less busy the handful of post midnight trains are from London, relative to those between 23:00 and midnight.

The question back is what is the demand for overnight trains?

 

[FlyingPotato]

I was once on a half midnight train from paddington, I was standing

There is demand from people seeing concerts, shows, nights out and more

If there are more trains, people will be inclined to have more nights out

 

[Hadders]

Historically not unusual to find the last trains out of Euston and Kings Cross standing room only on Fridays and Saturdays.

I’ve not travelled that late recently but between 23:00 and midnight departing London outer suburban trains can be very busy. The last train to Stevenage is 01:36 which is probably late enough in the vast majority of cases, although I did wonder if they’d consider an 02:xx and 03:xx via the Thameslink core from Brighton when through running started.

 

[islandmonkey]

Funnily enough, I have just awoken at stupid o clock in the night, checked Twitter, and SWR are authorising taxis due to overcrowding at Waterloo...at 1am!

 

[dub]

Even stopping the all night thameslink services in Z2/3 stations in London would be a great start. Plenty of late night folks want to get home from a night in the Railway Tavern at Tulse Hill or the Pineapple in Kentish Town! The Brighton trains drag themselves slowly through south London via Herne Hill it seems like such a waste!

 

[crablab]

24-hour service we have in the UK (as far as I know) is on Thameslink and Paddington-Reading,

The last fast-ish services are usually busy. That's the last train to Bristol (2330ish), then the selective stopper just after midnight. Those can be full and standing.

It looks like some of the later services have been reintroduced, as I don't remember a 0031 to Oxford which apparently ran on Friday.

 

[2192]

Do you think we will ever see more 24-hour services around ondon? It's always struck me as odd that the only "true" 24-hour service we have in the UK (as far as I know) is on Thameslink and Paddington-Reading, and that's with quite big gaps between.

A lot of towns and districts around London get their last evening trains pitifully early (e.g. the last train to Weybridge, which is always very busy, departs London at 23:48).

Now I know since Covid there have been big problems with lack of staff, so is this just a pipe dream or are there plans to add more all-night services?

When will you repair the track?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

When will you repair the track?

Depending on what exactly needs doing, perhaps all day blockades (maybe at weekends) would be more efficient than the limited track access that is often available if the section of line is only closed for a few hours overnight.

 

[Trainguy34]

Even just Friday and Saturday overnight services would work, especially for concerts finishing extremely late (as I've experienced) and nights out.

 

[Magdalia]

Putting on my economist's hat, this is a matter of demand and supply.

Most of the anecdotes here are from people making late night journeys out of London to get home after an evening out. The railway has put on special services a few times, for example the 2012 Olympics and New Year's Eve. But, on their own that isn't going to make an all night service worthwhile as demand is very erratic and mostly in one direction.

On the demand side what matters is people going to and from work on anti-social hours or shifts. With no night services it is virtually impossible for workers to use the train if they are in the hospitality industry or on shifts that start at 0600. In London it is the night bus network that does most to keep this part of the economy going.

On the supply side, the railway ran all night until the 1980s because of mail and news trains, many of these carrying passenger accommodation. Until sectorisation this allowed other all night services to run too. For example there was an all night service to Welwyn and Hertford from electrification in 1976 until the mid 1980s.

Another big change is when it is possible to do engineering work. Until the 1980s there was very little Sunday travel before around 1600. Engineering work that used to be done on Sundays now gets done on weekday nights. The railway has to have some downtime and overnight is probably still the least disruptive time for that.

 

[RobShipway]

I can understand having late night/early morning services on a Friday and Saturday with perhaps doing the same any other day should be a concert or an even going to the early hours of the morning adhoc where required. But as @2192 stated, when do you repair the track if you make it 24-hour, 7 days a week?

Depending on what exactly needs doing, perhaps all day blockades (maybe at weekends) would be more efficient than the limited track access that is often available if the section of line is only closed for a few hours overnight.

Issues to the tracks can happen on a daily basis, where rubbish as an example has blown into the rails due to strong to heavy gale force winds that have happened during the day. The problem you have with doing that work at weekends is that is likely when you will have more people travelling through the hours of day than you do Monday - Friday, after peak hour travelling periods. You also have to remember that you have the most people traveling on the network between 5am - 10am and between 3pm - 7pm on a Monday to Friday basis. There is still quite a few of those people that may also need to be travelling at similar hours on a Saturday, if they working in a store shop as an example. If you have all day blockade each weekend say on a Saturday, how is that store worker suppose to get to work?

Putting on my economist's hat, this is a matter of demand and supply.

Most of the anecdotes here are from people making late night journeys out of London to get home after an evening out. The railway has put on special services a few times, for example the 2012 Olympics and New Year's Eve. But, on their own that isn't going to make an all night service worthwhile as demand is very erratic and mostly in one direction.

On the demand side what matters is people going to and from work on anti-social hours or shifts. With no night services it is virtually impossible for workers to use the train if they are in the hospitality industry or on shifts that start at 0600. In London it is the night bus network that does most to keep this part of the economy going.

On the supply side, the railway ran all night until the 1980s because of mail and news trains, many of these carrying passenger accommodation. Until sectorisation this allowed other all night services to run too. For example there was an all night service to Welwyn and Hertford from electrification in 1976 until the mid 1980s.

Another big change is when it is possible to do engineering work. Until the 1980s there was very little Sunday travel before around 1600. Engineering work that used to be done on Sundays now gets done on weekday nights. The railway has to have some downtime and overnight is probably still the least disruptive time for that.

I have to agree with what @Magdalia has said 100%.

 

[baz962]

EMR used to have a 00.15 to Derby during the week which stopped at Luton Airport and Luton and Bedford. Had more staff than punters. Thameslink are busy during night on Weekends and the occasional weekday after a concert etc.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Depending on what exactly needs doing, perhaps all day blockades (maybe at weekends) would be more efficient than the limited track access that is often available if the section of line is only closed for a few hours overnight.

But as @2192 stated, when do you repair the track if you make it 24-hour, 7 days a week?

Issues to the tracks can happen on a daily basis, where rubbish as an example has blown into the rails due to strong to heavy gale force winds that have happened during the day.

Indeed, but as I said, depends on what exactly needs doing.

The problem you have with doing that work at weekends is that is likely when you will have more people travelling through the hours of day than you do Monday - Friday, after peak hour travelling periods.

You also have to remember that you have the most people traveling on the network between 5am - 10am and between 3pm - 7pm on a Monday to Friday basis.

Fair argument. So maybe any all day blockade would need to be on a Sunday.

There is still quite a few of those people that may also need to be travelling at similar hours on a Saturday, if they working in a store shop as an example. If you have all day blockade each weekend say on a Saturday, how is that store worker suppose to get to work?

Rail replacement buses might then be necessary. They're never ideal, but the job needing doing might be more extensive than just removing some wind blown debris.

 

[The Planner]

Remember that the "white" periods are free as nothing is timetabled into them. Make it 24 hours and then a disruptive Sunday and the cost goes up as you pay compensation to operators.

 

[PeterC]

Remember that the "white" periods are free as nothing is timetabled into them. Make it 24 hours and then a disruptive Sunday and the cost goes up as you pay compensation to operators.

Easy, switch from franchises to operating contracts. No revenue risk so no compensation.

 

[The Planner]

Easy, switch from franchises to operating contracts. No revenue risk so no compensation.

Doesn't work like that, Schedule 4 compensation gets paid even now with no revenue risk.

 

[Mikey C]

Not 24 hour, but out of Euston there are pretty late LNWR services, e.g. the 01:39 to Milton Keynes, and return trains to London departing MKC at 03:30 and 04:32

 

[fgwrich]

I'm not sure what's been re-instated as it's been a few months since my last late evening in London, but the 23 - 01:05 period on the SWML out of Waterloo always used to be very busy. Quite often, and even post covid, an 8 car 450 would be very very busy if not full and standing. I've even had 10 444 or 12 450 that's been rather well loaded despite the time, and occasionally lengthy*, journeys back from London to Basingstoke.

*I've had diversions via Chobham and Guildford, East Putney, Richmond, and even East Putney, Wimbledon, Epsom, Guildford (reverse), Woking (reverse) then up slow to Basingstoke (bi-di).

 

[Horizon22]

I don't think truly 24h is needed. Honestly the demand is almost nothing from 0130-0430.

But could there be a little bit extra in the 2330-0100 timescale? Definitely especially with late night gigs (although many have noise curfews anyway). The last trains are always busy because they are the last trains and so people have a target to aim for. I was on a ~2330 service after a gig the other night and that was pretty tight and it was an 8-car. Also I'd like better Sunday morning provision (as I'm sure would lots of 0600-0700 shift workers!) but appreciate that demand overall is quite low.

One issue is whether they are cost-effective though with revenue protection / gatelines normally open at such hours. And of course the big one; track access. It can be somewhat solved where there's a four-track railway and just reducing to two-track and alternating (so long as there's full platforms on all lines which is not always the case) but it's still tricky.

Depending on what exactly needs doing, perhaps all day blockades (maybe at weekends) would be more efficient than the limited track access that is often available if the section of line is only closed for a few hours overnight.

And people already complain there are too many weekend closures in the new leisure-driven demand for the railway...

 

[LLivery]

I see overnight Thameslink trains pass my window, they're certainly not empty around 1-2am. I've used one around 2am from East Croydon to Gatwick and again, it was quite popular. A half hourly Thameslink service would be welcome. For selfish reasons, I'd love it to call at stations along the Sydenham corridor on at least Friday and Saturday nights. Understand it's useful to have diversions via Elephant, but being able to achieve two nights per week would be great. A well timed Interchange at New Cross Gate for the Overground and it'd be perfect.

100% understand there needs to be works overnight, but the Fri - Sat compromise TfL have chosen on the main routes would be a big help to South London in particular.

 

[FlyingPotato]

I was at a gig at the O2 last night, it took close to an hour to get on the tube following.
I got to Ealing close to one and saw the last GWR out of paddington and it was standing.

A train at midnight might not support an 11 o'clock concert finish due to transfer times.

So more trains should be had between 12 and 1 as there is demand

 

[Jimini]

If they could ditch the two track railway restrictions out of Euston it would open up plenty of options as well, rather than crawling along the relief lines and being sent on a sojourn to Northampton after half-nine each evening.

 

[The Planner]

If they could ditch the two track railway restrictions out of Euston it would open up plenty of options as well, rather than crawling along the relief lines and being sent on a sojourn to Northampton after half-nine each evening.

Replace them with what though? The two track allows late services, if that trade off is making them slower then so be it.