26-30 Railcard Minimum Fare

[train25]

Hi,

After seeing recently threads about minimum fare for railcard holders, I'm just trying to seek a clarification.
These are some of the terms mentioned on the 26-30 railcard.

Validity​

Valid from​

From 1st September 2022

Days & Times Valid​

£12 minimum fare applies 04:30 to 09:59 Mondays to Fridays

If your journey starts before 04:30 is the railcard discount valid? I see everyone mentioning that the discount is not valid before 10:00. West Midlands App/Trainline sell discounted tickets for trip that start before 04:30. Just to clarify i travel always on the booked time and not on any train after.

Thank you

 

[KittyBoat76]

Hi, is this the same with the 16-25 Railcard or does that one have different terms? Thanks

 

[RHolmes]

Hi, is this the same with the 16-25 Railcard or does that one have different terms? Thanks

It’s the same as the 26-30 EXCEPT during July and August where the minimum fare doesn’t apply

The minimum fare doesn’t apply in July and August for the 16-25 but does apply for 26-30

 

[train25]

It’s the same as the 16-25 EXCEPT during July and August where the minimum fare doesn’t apply


To be clear that should read as the 26-30.

The minimum fare doesn’t apply in July and August for the 16-25 but does apply for 26-30

Correct as per railcard terms:

When can I use a 16-25 Railcard? A 16-25 Railcard can be used at any time for Peak and Off-Peak travel. For journeys made between 04:30 and 10:00 Monday to Friday, a minimum fare of £12 is payable. There is no minimum fare when you travel at weekends, on Public Holidays, or during July and August.

Question is about 04:30, what if there are no barriers at destination station and no ticket scanned, will they "assume" the time?

 

[Watershed]

Correct as per railcard terms:

When can I use a 16-25 Railcard? A 16-25 Railcard can be used at any time for Peak and Off-Peak travel. For journeys made between 04:30 and 10:00 Monday to Friday, a minimum fare of £12 is payable. There is no minimum fare when you travel at weekends, on Public Holidays, or during July and August.

Question is about 04:30, what if there are no barriers at destination station and no ticket scanned, will they "assume" the time?

Most (if not all) barriers don't know about the minimum fare rule - the station operator in charge of the barriers can only choose to accept or reject Railcard discounted tickets on a blanket basis, not based on the fare, journey or time of day.

The wording is slightly ambiguous as to whether journeys must be completed before 04:30, but the way the restrictions are encoded in the data that booking sites use merely requires the departure to be before 04:30.

Therefore booking sites will sell you a Railcard discounted ticket of less than £12 for an itinerary beginning before 04:30 even if it arrives after 04:30. You're entitled to rely on that itinerary; it's contractually binding.

 

[MrJeeves]

The wording is slightly ambiguous as to whether journeys must be completed before 04:30, but the way the restrictions are encoded in the data that booking sites use merely requires the departure to be before 04:30.

I believe the data actually prevents the sale of tickets where you board any service at 04:30-09:59, so changes of train will also prevent the sale of a discounted fare.

At least BRFares presents the restriction as "Minimum fare applies departing any location between 0430-0959", and I think the points that would be validated for that are just boarding point. (Potentially alighting point if the train continues past your alighting point before 10am, too?).

I'm not really familiar with the electronic data behind railcard restrictions, though.

so changes of train will also prevent the sale of a discounted fare.

Can confirm that's how TrainSplit/FastJP will handle it, at least.

With a silly itinerary overnight Thameslink from Gatwick to Purley with a forced change at Horley, you can see the minimum fare kicks in for the itinerary that begins pre-0430 but has a change of train at 04:45:

Potentially alighting point if the train continues past your alighting point before 10am, too?

And I can also confirm that is wrong by looking at East Croydon to Blackfriars as the itinerary ending 04:36 does not have a minimum fare:

 

[Haywain]

Most (if not all) barriers don't know about the minimum fare rule - the station operator in charge of the barriers can only choose to accept or reject Railcard discounted tickets on a blanket basis, not based on the fare, journey or time of day.

When I programmed gate logic for both Cubic and S&B gates this (accept/reject according to minimum fare) wasn't an option and I have no reason to believe that has changed.

 

[train25]

Northampton-Bletchley Route with 26-30 Railcard Discount

Journey ends after 4:30.

Sometimes is hard to navigate through all railway “wording” and “meaning” .

 

[skyhigh]

Northampton-Bletchley Route with 26-30 Railcard Discount

Journey ends after 4:30.

Sometimes is hard to navigate through all railway “wording” and “meaning” .

If you were to buy that ticket with that itinerary it is valid as @Watershed says.

 

[158801]

Does the minimum fare apply to both outward and return journey?

So, if I use the return portion of an Anytime return (costing £11) at 0900. Is this valid ?

 

[Watershed]

Does the minimum fare apply to both outward and return journey?

So, if I use the return portion of an Anytime return (costing £11) at 0900. Is this valid ?

It applies to both portions of a ticket. The only exceptions are Advance tickets and travel during the months of July and August (with a counter-exception for 26-30 Railcards).

 

[fandroid]

When I programmed gate logic for both Cubic and S&B gates this (accept/reject according to minimum fare) wasn't an option and I have no reason to believe that has changed.

I am a Senior Railcard holder living in the southeast. There is a (quasi) time related restriction for use of my card on journeys wholly within the Network Southeast area.

The gates at my station are programmed to reject off-peak tickets before the last weekday morning train departure to Waterloo that requires an Anytime ticket.

The double discount (Offpeak+ Railcard) is a big incentive for me not to travel earlier. However, if I forget myself, the gates will stop me doing anything silly. They also stop us oldies from contemplating fraud by online selection of a later train but travelling earlier.

The railway really does need to find some similar way of detecting and stopping the minimum fare problem from arising.

It seems harsh, but maybe a simpler solution is to apply the minimum fare all day on weekdays, and reduce it a bit to compensate

 

[miklcct]

It seems harsh, but maybe a simpler solution is to apply the minimum fare all day on weekdays, and reduce it a bit to compensate

That's a sure way to kill off weekday travel and make the railcard effectively become weekend only, as in the case of Network Railcard.

 

[30907]

I am a Senior Railcard holder living in the southeast. There is a (quasi) time related restriction for use of my card on journeys wholly within the Network Southeast area.

The gates at my station are programmed to reject off-peak tickets before the last weekday morning train departure to Waterloo that requires an Anytime ticket.

The double discount (Offpeak+ Railcard) is a big incentive for me not to travel earlier. However, if I forget myself, the gates will stop me doing anything silly. They also stop us oldies from contemplating fraud by online selection of a later train but travelling earlier.

If you buy an NSE Anytime fare with senior railcard discount, will the barriers reject it before 0930 (or whenever)?

I suspect not, given their limitations - anyone know? Not asking you to test it, of course!

Two comments:
1. We have seen a rash of cases involving the 10am + Anytime workaround/misunderstanding/fraud. Is this:
a. random?
b. TOCs becoming better at spotting them when they trawl purchases?
c. word getting around that you can often get away with it?

2. We've previously had suggestions that all apps/websites should have a screen that asks you to confirm that you have a valid railcard - if it were introduced, should it now also ask you to confirm that you are aware of any time restrictions?
(Please can we not rerun the discussion about it being a good/bad idea, he says hopefully?)

 

[LJA]

Issue is that you can buy a railcard discounted anytime ticket which isn’t actually valid at all times, and this isn’t spelt out during the buying process (in fact it’s usually the opposite)

Theoretically railcard holders should be aware of the restrictions, but I’d wager that the vast majority aren’t. Certainly don’t think I was when I was younger.

It does leave a bit of a trap (or a loophole to be potentially exploited if the barrier/guard doesn’t pick it up). Whether it’s a big or common enough issue to require some no doubt complex fix I’m not sure.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

1. We have seen a rash of cases involving the 10am + Anytime workaround/misunderstanding/fraud. Is this:
a. random?
b. TOCs becoming better at spotting them when they trawl purchases?
c. word getting around that you can often get away with it?

It seems to me that specifically we've had a rash of TfW cases - which says to me that someone in TfW is doing a project and analysing/cross-referencing data already held.

Also, in one of the threads it was noted that the letter out was signed by a 'trainee conductor'. What customer facing organisation allows their staff to sign things off and state to the outside world that they're a trainee? To me, that's just asking for trouble ('Dear Big Organisation, thank you for your letter issued by A. Employee, a trainee widget maker. Before I respond, please could a fully qualified widget maker review the letter as I am concerned that A. Employee may not have fully understood the situation. You will of course extend the time limit for me to respond until a fully qualified member of your staff has considered matters and responded to me in appropriate detail...')

 

[JonathanH]

1. We have seen a rash of cases involving the 10am + Anytime workaround/misunderstanding/fraud. Is this:
a. random?
b. TOCs becoming better at spotting them when they trawl purchases?
c. word getting around that you can often get away with it?

A lot of them also seem to relate to people using e-tickets which may suggest some trawling.

It does seem that the minimum fare needs to be communicated more prominently.