26-30 railcard - peak travel & prosecution threat

[SWRtraveller]

Hi - I travelled with SWR during peak time (9am) using my 26-30 railcard with a ticket which cost under £12 (purchased via thetrainline). I was unaware of the T&Cs requiring a £12 minimum ticket price during peak times for this railcard, so was surprised when the ticket inspector at my destination told me my 'anytime day return' ticket was invalid and quickly moved to threaten me with prosecution and demanded my name and address to issue an MG11 (which I of course complied with).

Now I'm apparently facing a maximum of 3 months jail time, criminal record (=lost job) and £1000 fine for a purely accidental £1.70 saving on my journey and anxiously awaiting correspondence from SWR.

Is this normal behaviour for SWR revenue officers and I'd really appreciate if anybody could share experience with how to approach similar issues?

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

This is an unfortunate situation but the terms and conditions of the 26-30 railcard do state that it is only valid on weekdays before 10:00 if the value of the discounted fare is at least £12. Officially this means you travelled without a valid ticket.

Here's the advice I normally give to people who come here seeking our advice in circumstances similar to yours.

You are likely to receive a letter from the train company, or an investigation company acting on their behalf, stating that have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be a few hundred pounds plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Now I'm apparently facing a maximum of 3 months jail time, criminal record (=lost job) and £1000 fine for a purely accidental £1.70 saving on my journey and anxiously awaiting correspondence from SWR

To add to @Hadders’ good advice above, although the law allows jail for this offence, in practice this doesn’t happen. I understand that the sentencing guidelines that magistrates work under restrict the punishment to a fine of half a week’s income, although there would also be court costs, prosecution costs and compensation (the fare not paid) on top of that.

But on the basis of what you have told us, it is most likely that as long as you co-operate as suggested above, you will be able to settle this matter out of court. So hopefully you won’t need to worry about having a criminal record.

But while you haven’t told us what field you work in, there are comparatively few jobs where any criminal conviction will lead to dismissal, so it might be worth doing some research to see if your job is one where that is a risk. Start by looking at your contract and the terms of your employment to see what they say. If you are a member of a union then ask your union rep for advice. Think about whether there are any colleagues who you can ask in confidence (and who will give you a well-informed answer!).

If it turns out that your employer might let you go on the grounds of a criminal conviction, then you need to bear in mind that generally employers want to know about your current trustworthiness. A conviction on the facts that you have stated would suggest a past failure to have completely read the small print: but not mentioning a conviction would suggest a current failure to be open and honest with the employer. You could find yourself being dismissed for not telling your employer about a conviction rather than the conviction itself!

 

[gray1404]

Can you tell us more about the ticket you were travelling on and the ticket you purchased through the Trainline. Did you actually select the train you travelled on using their app yet it's still sold you a ticket for below £12

 

[Snow1964]

Can you tell us more about the ticket you were travelling on and the ticket you purchased through the Trainline. Did you actually select the train you travelled on using their app yet it's still sold you a ticket for below £12

This is important as a potential mitigating factor.

You had a ticket which wasn’t valid (which for the strict liability is same as having no ticket), but you clearly intended to have a ticket and were sold one for the journey you made.

As far as I’m aware, no websites or apps let you buy a ticket without asking for the journey (start & finish stations) and time of travel and if you are adult/child and if you hold any railcards. So if you selected these and it sold you a ticket that wasn’t valid (below the £12 peak hour railcard minimum) then the vendor has joint responsibility for your error.

However it gets rather legally messy because of terms and conditions of the websites. You were sold a dud, which means consumer law might help you, you cannot sell a useless item describing it as valid and at the very least not give money back.

So wait for a letter, take @Hadders advice, don’t panic. In meantime perhaps you can confirm where or who sold you the ticket that was inconsistent with your railcard. As clearly you shouldn’t have been able to buy an invalid ticket if you had chosen a train (did you actually click on a specific train on purchasing site). If you did there is clearly a gap in the machines fare tables and it invented a price (there is no peak fare under £12 for 26-30 railcard), so it seems it merged a price for a different ticket with your chosen route and time.

It is likely that a ticket selling error will be treated differently to someone deliberately fare evading. This is one of those where the railway has to choose if it wants to discourage use of machines and websites for purchasing tickets. Quite simply if you had been sold this at a manned ticket office at your local station it would have been dealt with differently as not your fault, but mistake of busy booking clerk, and an experienced inspector would have simply noted it to have a quiet word with the ticket office later.

 

[MotCO]

This is important as a potential mitigating factor.

You had a ticket which wasn’t valid (which for the strict liability is same as having no ticket), but you clearly intended to have a ticket and were sold one for the journey you made.

As far as I’m aware, no websites or apps let you buy a ticket without asking for the journey (start & finish stations) and time of travel and if you are adult/child and if you hold any railcards. So if you selected these and it sold you a ticket that wasn’t valid (below the £12 peak hour railcard minimum) then the vendor has joint responsibility for your error.

However it gets rather legally messy because of terms and conditions of the websites. You were sold a dud, which means consumer law might help you, you cannot sell a useless item describing it as valid and at the very least not give money back.

So wait for a letter, take @Hadders advice, don’t panic. In meantime perhaps you can confirm where or who sold you the ticket that was inconsistent with your railcard. As clearly you shouldn’t have been able to buy an invalid ticket if you had chosen a train (did you actually click on a specific train on purchasing site). If you did there is clearly a gap in the machines fare tables and it invented a price (there is no peak fare under £12 for 26-30 railcard), so it seems it merged a price for a different ticket with your chosen route and time.

It is likely that a ticket selling error will be treated differently to someone deliberately fare evading

The other thing to add is if you had to specify the time of a train, did you sctually catch the nominated train, or did you just turn up at the station and catch an earlier train?

 

[mikeg]

I do think this is a rather frivolous case being brought by the TOC. As it related in effect to a time restriction other than that for an advance surely an excess should have been issued as per the nrcot? Irrespective of whether a Railcard discount can normally be excessed away - or excessed to the minimum fare?

It's telling that a penalty fare probably could not be issued under these circumstances, this was designed to protect consumers not put them in jeopardy of prosecution.

In either case I do believe this case is overwhelmingly not in the public interest. Is there not a mechanism for the CPS to take over such cases and present no evidence?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I do think this is a rather frivolous case being brought by the TOC. As it related in effect to a time restriction other than that for an advance surely an excess should have been issued as per the nrcot? Irrespective of whether a Railcard discount can normally be excessed away - or excessed to the minimum fare?

It's telling that a penalty fare probably could not be issued under these circumstances, this was designed to protect consumers not put them in jeopardy of prosecution.

In either case I do believe this case is overwhelmingly not in the public interest. Is there not a mechanism for the CPS to take over such cases and present no evidence?

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. The OP appears to have had their details taken, and is waiting for the railway to get in touch with them:

Now I'm (...) anxiously awaiting correspondence from SWR.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi - I travelled with SWR during peak time (9am) using my 26-30 railcard with a ticket which cost under £12 (purchased via thetrainline). I was unaware of the T&Cs requiring a £12 minimum ticket price during peak times for this railcard, so was surprised when the ticket inspector at my destination told me my 'anytime day return' ticket was invalid and quickly moved to threaten me with prosecution and demanded my name and address to issue an MG11 (which I of course complied with).

Now I'm apparently facing a maximum of 3 months jail time, criminal record (=lost job) and £1000 fine for a purely accidental £1.70 saving on my journey and anxiously awaiting correspondence from SWR.

Is this normal behaviour for SWR revenue officers and I'd really appreciate if anybody could share experience with how to approach similar issues?

OK - whilst fresh in your mind make notes of exact ticket held, time bought, time of train caught etc (if only for your own records)

Then your reply to them when they write to you (make sure you watch out for the letter, take steps if you move house in future weeks or months to get post) needs to stress that you had no intention not to pay the fare owed, believed the ticket to be valid, was unaware of the time restriction on the railcard use for the journey concerned, offer to pay the balance owed in full and promptly.

You can post a draft of your reply here for comment in due course if you like.

Of note is that I think if you had tried to buy the ticket at the station from staff or a machine it would probably have refused to sell the ticket with the Railcard discount at the time of day before 9am or told you the fare was £12 (ie defaulted to the minimum fare) but I am not 100% sure of this as I don't use SWR ticket machines very often, not living in that area.

I don't use The Trainline preferring the train companies own website so as to avoid involving a 'third party' and for other reasons, so can't comment on how it handles transactions like this.

 

[Watershed]

In principle, it is not an offence to travel with a Railcard discounted ticket at a restricted time - the penalty is simply that you must pay the excess to the undiscounted price (see condition 9.5 of the NRCoT).

However, section 5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 makes it an offence if you

[travel] or [attempt] to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof

Since, without paying the excess, you have not paid your (correct) fare, this offence is capable of being made out if the TOC can show "intent to avoid payment" - e.g. that you hoped to avoid paying the excess.

Therefore, if you have been doing this on a regular basis, without paying the excess, it could be argued that this demonstrates intent to avoid payment.

It seems very unlikely that Trainline offered the Railcard discount on a pre-10am train, as this is a restriction built into industry data; if they did, your tickets would be contractually valid and it would be a matter for the TOC to take up with them.

However, in the more likely event that you simply selected a later service to get the discount, one of the questions which may be relevant to determine whether intent to avoid payment exists would be - why did you regularly select a later train (which just so happened to be cheaper) than that which you intended to catch?

You have told us that you were unaware of the existence of the minimum fare. Whilst you have to agree to the Railcard terms when buying a Railcard, I think most people would admit that they do not normally read Ts&Cs properly or at all, so as this is all about intent, that could be a plausible defence.

Obviously it is up to you how you wish to play this, but you do have a choice here as to whether you simply grovel and try to aim for a settlement, or whether you maintain your innocence and simply agree to repay the excess fares owed. You may wish to consider obtaining legal advice from a solicitor if you think this could be a serious matter, e.g. if there are potentially hundreds or thousands at stake.

 

[RPI]

In all cases I've personally seen of a 16-25/26-30 Discount for a fare under £12.00 before 10:00 M-F the customer had selected a later train to avoid the minimum fare, in several of those cases there had also been significant previous history of doing so (discovered when the trainline data was released).

I'm not suggesting this is the case here but countering the comments of it being a harsh or unfair course of action as a rule to report via an MG11.

 

[Dai Corner]

It's worth noting that the investigating organisation will be able to get details of your previous purchases from Trainline.

Edit: @RPI just beat me to it.

 

[30907]

You have told us that you were unaware of the existence of the minimum fare. Whilst you have to agree to the Railcard terms when buying a Railcard, I think most people would admit that they do not normally read Ts&Cs properly or at all, so as this is all about intent, that could be a plausible defence.

The minimum fare info is prominent on the 26-30 Railcard website home page, not hidden in the small print, sorry.

 

[Watershed]

The minimum fare info is prominent on the 26-30 Railcard website home page, not hidden in the small print, sorry.

The vast majority of people are nevertheless unaware of it. Of course the question that will be asked of the OP, if they try and raise ignorance as a defence, is why they thought a cheaper ticket only offered for departures after 10am would be valid when earlier departures were more expensive.

 

[WesternLancer]

Obviously it is up to you how you wish to play this, but you do have a choice here as to whether you simply grovel and try to aim for a settlement, or whether you maintain your innocence and simply agree to repay the excess fares owed.

Just on this point it is worth the OP considering that:
- aiming for a settlement might cost c£100 ish
- excess owed might be (depending on the journey) less than eg £5

But the OP may wish to consider if they have done this regularly (even in error and not understanding it was not permitted to use the railcard), which SWR may be able to see from patterns of times tickets bought from Trainline etc for this journey (I doubt they will start trawling CCTV before people raise that), and thus whether SWR are likely to believe the OP when they make their apology. Obv OP best placed to weigh that up and consider it in their response in due course.

If it were me and I had only done this once as a genuine mistake I'd be offering to pay the difference (not also offering in my first reply to pay SWR investigation / settlement costs and ask for out of court, but it would depend on the letter I got from SWR of course).

 

[realemil]

In all cases I've personally seen of a 16-25/26-30 Discount for a fare under £12.00 before 10:00 M-F the customer had selected a later train to avoid the minimum fare, in several of those cases there had also been significant previous history of doing so (discovered when the trainline data was released)

Interesting that it’s not valid.

Ive known about the restrictions, but never known that it’s not allowed, many times I’ve been sold tickets before 10:00 for less than £12 with my 16-25, both at ticket offices & on-board trains.

I’ve always thought that the £12 minimum fare is just there so people don’t travel peak for cheap, and not something that’s enforced.

 

[WesternLancer]

Interesting that it’s not valid.

Ive known about the restrictions, but never known that it’s not allowed, many times I’ve been sold tickets before 10:00 for less than £12 with my 16-25, both at ticket offices & on-board trains.

I’ve always thought that the £12 minimum fare is just there so people don’t travel peak for cheap, and not something that’s enforced.

v clearly stated - if you look of course - but it does not apply weekends and bank hols. Can't recall if it always existed.

wasn't it the case some time ago that it did not apply in July and August - and has that changed?

I have to say it's not without the ability to confuse people is it - esp when there are other railcard for young people with slightly differing conditions / restrictions....

Travel times & tickets - 26-30 Railcard

www.26-30railcard.co.uk

 

[miklcct]

v clearly stated - if you look of course - but it does not apply weekends and bank hols. Can't recall if it always existed.

wasn't it the case some time ago that it did not apply in July and August - and has that changed?

I have to say it's not without the ability to confuse people is it - esp when there are other railcard for young people with slightly differing conditions / restrictions....

Travel times & tickets - 26-30 Railcard

www.26-30railcard.co.uk

The 16-25 card has a July and August easement which the 26-30 card doesn't have. And no card has a restriction on weekends and holidays.

 

[Haywain]

many times I’ve been sold tickets before 10:00 for less than £12 with my 16-25, both at ticket offices & on-board trains.

The minimum fare doesn't apply in July and August or at any time for Advance fares for the 16-25 railcard. It applies all year round for the 26-30 railcard.

 

[RPI]

Interesting that it’s not valid.

Ive known about the restrictions, but never known that it’s not allowed, many times I’ve been sold tickets before 10:00 for less than £12 with my 16-25, both at ticket offices & on-board trains.

I’ve always thought that the £12 minimum fare is just there so people don’t travel peak for cheap, and not something that’s enforced.

Must have been weekends/July or August or advance tickets. The minimum fare has applied for 30 years or more, booking office issuing systems won't allow it to be sold without min fare and certainly the TTK machines that we have on board at GWR won't allow the discount before 10:00 where appropriate.

 

[WesternLancer]

The 16-25 card has a July and August easement which the 26-30 card doesn't have. And no card has a restriction on weekends and holidays.

Thanks. Of course not at all confusing to anyone....

Only on Britain's railways....

 

[Western Sunset]

Thanks. Of course not at all confusing to anyone....

Only on Britain's railways....

Surprised the easement (lovely word...) wasn't worded along the lines of: "excluding the two consecutive months of a calendar year comprising 31 days".

 

[jfollows]

I rarely interact with "social media" but a few months ago I saw a post along the lines of "warning: train fares from Wilmslow increased by 20%" which, on investigation, turned out to be from someone who was using a 16-25 railcard and had correctly been charged the discount in August but the minimum fare in September. She wasn't told why, so had concluded that the fare had increased significantly. I was happy to explain the real reason to her.

 

[island]

Surprised the easement (lovely word...) wasn't worded along the lines of: "excluding the two consecutive months of a calendar year comprising 31 days".

Someone here would probably say that this also includes December and January, and that it's "confusing" so by "consumer law" should be interpreted in the customer's favour

 

[Western Sunset]

Depends on how one interprets "calendar year"... Anyway, we're probably not helping the OP with this frivolity.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

In all cases I've personally seen of a 16-25/26-30 Discount for a fare under £12.00 before 10:00 M-F the customer had selected a later train to avoid the minimum fare, in several of those cases there had also been significant previous history of doing so (discovered when the trainline data was released).

I'm not suggesting this is the case here but countering the comments of it being a harsh or unfair course of action as a rule to report via an MG11.

This. Come across this pretty much every weekday, often same people every day.

Interesting that it’s not valid.

Ive known about the restrictions, but never known that it’s not allowed, many times I’ve been sold tickets before 10:00 for less than £12 with my 16-25, both at ticket offices & on-board trains.

I’ve always thought that the £12 minimum fare is just there so people don’t travel peak for cheap, and not something that’s enforced.

Vey odd, especially at ticket offices.

Often it can be overlooked on quick visual scans by guards, and potentially digital scans too as if the ticket type is valid and you produce a railcard, that's all the generally checked, not sure the min fare issue flags up on scans.

The fact that there's a minimum fare requires them to then additionally check the fare paid. Different when selling onboard as they should know not to apply the discount unless above the minimum fare.

 

[RPI]

This. Come across this pretty much every weekday, often same people every day.


Vey odd, especially at ticket offices.

Often it can be overlooked on quick visual scans by guards, and potentially digital scans too as if the ticket type is valid and you produce a railcard, that's all the generally checked, not sure the min fare issue flags up on scans.

The fact that there's a minimum fare requires them to then additionally check the fare paid. Different when selling onboard as they should know not to apply the discount unless above the minimum fare.

Depends on the ticket issuing system, previously we had fujitsu Star mobile which was absolutely awful, worst ticket issuing system I've ever used and that would happily let you issue an invalid ticket at the wrong time without warning, but TTK Avocet won't let you do it (there is a work around but you would only go out of your way to do it for a very good reason), not sure about Envoy (the Worldline system) we trialled that but cannot remember off hand whether time restrictions come in on it.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Depends on the ticket issuing system, previously we had fujitsu Star mobile which was absolutely awful, worst ticket issuing system I've ever used and that would happily let you issue an invalid ticket at the wrong time without warning, but TTK Avocet won't let you do it (there is a work around but you would only go out of your way to do it for a very good reason), not sure about Envoy (the Worldline system) we trialled that but cannot remember off hand whether time restrictions come in on it.

The issue with envoy would be not selecting the train for said ticket, you're generally just doing point A to point B sales so it will allow you to select any ticket type at any time.

I think this would be why min fare isn't picked up, it just isn't coded in correctly on ticketing machines, so it's a manual check currently. Maybe I can check when I'm next on early shifts

 

[Feuillesmortes]

Interesting that the Network Railcard has the time restrictions clearly shown on the front, whereas other Railcards don't.

Also digital Railcards don't seem show restrictions at all.

 

[some bloke]

the question that will be asked...is why they thought a cheaper ticket only offered for departures after 10am would be valid when earlier departures were more expensive.

@SWRtraveller, was it at least partly because of the name of the ticket - did you think you could use it at any time, so that the name overrode/distracted from the fact that higher fares were shown for earlier journeys?

Or did the name of the ticket lead you to buy for a random time without seeing more expensive earlier fares?

surprised when the ticket inspector at my destination told me my 'anytime day return' ticket was invalid