350/2s to Northern - Feasible?

[biggerisbetter]

I accept likely overkill in terms of capacity for all to be used but wondered if Northern could take on the soon to be off-lease 350/2s (assuming they could be obtained cheaply) to:

- Provide additional capacity on electric services
- Allow a rationalisation of electric fleets with say 323s based at Allerton, 350s at Ardwick (is there room?) and 331s at Neville Hill - obviously with stabling elsewhere on the network as required
- Allow replacement of 333s reducing overall fleet age slightly.

Some questions that if answered would help to answer the overall question as to whether it were feasible:

- Could 8 carriage 350s work on Manchester Airport to Blackpool North services using unit de-select at shorter platforms?
- Given the slightly higher top speed compared to existing Northern EMUs, could paths be found for an extension of the Morpeth/Chathill services either further south from Newcastle to Leeds (once electrification is complete) or Doncaster or further north to Berwick or Edinburgh using the 350s to provide a stopping service on the northern part of the ECML?
- When is electrification due to be completed between Neville Hill and Church Fenton? - Had a search for this but couldn't find anything. Once complete, would there be paths / capacity for an electric Leeds to York stopper serving Cross Gates, Garforth, East Garforth, Micklefield, Church Fenton and Ulleskelf?
- Could the 81m 350s be squeezed onto the 74m platforms at Flowery Field and Godley given that there are no signals located at the end of these platforms and that the doors are at 1/3rd and 2/3rds?

Thanks in advance!

 

[skyhigh]

Allow a rationalisation of electric fleets with say 323s based at Allerton, 350s at Ardwick (is there room?) and 331s at Neville Hill

For a start, Neville Hill only has capacity for 7 EMUs at any one time.

Not sure how you're going to fit 43 into the plan. Not to mention they currently only have 25 units so you're practically doubling workload and capacity.

 

[biggerisbetter]

For a start, Neville Hill only has capacity for 7 EMUs at any one time.

Not sure how you're going to fit 43 into the plan. Not to mention they currently only have 25 units so you're practically doubling workload and capacity.

Is the 25 unit allocation sufficient to cover all of the 11 services per hour of Doncaster-Leeds, Leeds-Skipton, Leeds-Ilkley, Leeds-Bradford, Bradford-Ilkley and Bradford Skipton including 2 x 3-carriage units on the Leeds-Ilkley, Leeds-Skipton and Leeds-Bradford services? My estimation is that more than 25 units would be needed to run these services with obviously a further need for units being maintained and a potential future requirement for Leeds-York services once electrification of Neville Hill to Church Fenton is complete.

 

[Neptune]

You ask if they are feasible for Northern. The answer is no I’m afraid.

Ardwick couldn’t cope with 37 additional electric units and Neville Hill certainly couldn’t cope with 43 EMU’s. This will become especially apparent when NL is closed for several weeks and the electric fleet is transferred to the new Shipley EMUD.

The current electric fleet situation is stable and there are excess units for the current work with an ability to stand a small uplift in work to accommodate them such as reinstatement of the 2tph Bradford - Ilkley/Skipton in December.

The only physical movements within the fleet are additional 331/0’s coming across the Pennines planned for December when 2x3 car working commences on the Leeds - Skipton/Ilkley routes and the completion of the transfer of 17 x 323’s from WMT for the west. Training of Doncaster crews on 333’s will commence in the summer with paths in the system for this purpose.

Furthermore you may have seen that Northern are currently in the process of acquiring a fleet of bi-modes to replace the 15x fleet. This fleet will fulfil future expansion of the electric network as lines are electrified as well as allowing services to run on electric when partially under the wires such as Carlisle - Morpeth or Leeds - Sheffield via Dearne. They will have the ability to be converted to full electric if necessary.

Replacement of any of the current electric fleet will be most likely with full electric versions of these types of units but not until full 15x replacement is complete.

 

[swt_passenger]

- Given the slightly higher top speed compared to existing Northern EMUs, could paths be found for an extension of the Morpeth/Chathill services either further south from Newcastle to Leeds (once electrification is complete) or Doncaster or further north to Berwick or Edinburgh using the 350s to provide a stopping service on the northern part of the ECML?

No, Morpeth turnback sidings are not electrified hence being DMU operated now. This is been pointed out every time it’s suggested Northern use EMUs to Morpeth. Chathill might be theoretically capable of EMU operation by reversing in Belford? loops, but it’s not exactly a regular service.

But in any case it’s also apparently been agreed for TPE to run an all day 2 hourly Edinburgh to Newcastle using 802s. There’ll also be no track capacity for extending a slower train south of Newcastle, that’s why attempts to run additional Northern services to/from Middlesbrough recently failed and they still have to go via Sunderland. The few Northern services that do use the ECML in the early mornings run before the main ex-Kings Cross service has arrived on the scene.

 

[Halifaxlad]

For a start, Neville Hill only has capacity for 7 EMUs at any one time.

Not sure how you're going to fit 43 into the plan. Not to mention they currently only have 25 units so you're practically doubling workload and capacity.

Does it really matter ?

Considering new depots are being built so Neville Hill doesn't have to be used, to facilitate TRU!

 

[Kite159]

As replacements for 323s then maybe it's a good idea.

 

[Neptune]

Does it really matter ?

Considering new depots are being built so Neville Hill doesn't have to be used, to facilitate TRU!

Yes it does matter as there is still only finite space when NL is shut for a few weeks and not all the temporary stabling locations will be available for use afterwards. There is a hell of a lot of work going on behind the scenes regarding the fleet both current and future (well documented) none of which includes a huge over resource of spare units that nobody else wants and for which we have no use.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Yes it does matter as there is still only finite space when NL is shut for a few weeks and not all the temporary stabling locations will be available for use afterwards. There is a hell of a lot of work going on behind the scenes regarding the fleet both current and future (well documented) none of which includes a huge over resource of spare units that nobody else wants and for which we have no use.

"Temporary"

I highly doubt the new Shipley depot is

"Temporary"

 

[Neptune]

"Temporary"

I highly doubt the new Shipley depot is

"Temporary"

No Shipley isn’t. Many other places are though such as Cobra Sidings so where do they go when everywhere is full?

 

[Halifaxlad]

No Shipley isn’t. Many other places are though such as Cobra Sidings so where do they go when everywhere is full?

Perhaps you should re read post 1

- Provide additional capacity on electric services
- Allow a rationalisation of electric fleets with say 323s based at Allerton, 350s at Ardwick (is there room?) and 331s at Neville Hill - obviously with stabling elsewhere on the network as required
- Allow replacement of 333s reducing overall fleet age slightly.

 

[Neptune]

So where are 43 under utilised EMU’s going then? In the space where the DMU’s that were at the various temporary locations are supposed to be stabled? I’m sure my colleagues in fleet planning could really use your help on this please as they must be missing something.

 

[deltic08]

I accept likely overkill in terms of capacity for all to be used but wondered if Northern could take on the soon to be off-lease 350/2s (assuming they could be obtained cheaply) to:

- Provide additional capacity on electric services
- Allow a rationalisation of electric fleets with say 323s based at Allerton, 350s at Ardwick (is there room?) and 331s at Neville Hill - obviously with stabling elsewhere on the network as required
- Allow replacement of 333s reducing overall fleet age slightly.

Some questions that if answered would help to answer the overall question as to whether it were feasible:

- Could 8 carriage 350s work on Manchester Airport to Blackpool North services using unit de-select at shorter platforms?
- Given the slightly higher top speed compared to existing Northern EMUs, could paths be found for an extension of the Morpeth/Chathill services either further south from Newcastle to Leeds (once electrification is complete) or Doncaster or further north to Berwick or Edinburgh using the 350s to provide a stopping service on the northern part of the ECML?
- When is electrification due to be completed between Neville Hill and Church Fenton? - Had a search for this but couldn't find anything. Once complete, would there be paths / capacity for an electric Leeds to York stopper serving Cross Gates, Garforth, East Garforth, Micklefield, Church Fenton and Ulleskelf?
- Could the 81m 350s be squeezed onto the 74m platforms at Flowery Field and Godley given that there are no signals located at the end of these platforms and that the doors are at 1/3rd and 2/3rds?

Thanks in advance!

Northern have all the EMUs its needs at the moment. If it wanted more it would have taken all 26 323s from the West Midland instead of only 17.
350/2s are only 4 years younger than 333s. Not worth Northern taking them on just for a younger average age.
What Northern needs are bimodes. If 350/2s are converted to bimodes, then they would be more useful to Northern cascading 195s and 158s to replace 156s. Manchester-Barrow/Windermere is an obvious one, Metro Centre-Morpeth/Chathill, Leeds-Lancaster/Morecambe, Manchester-Buxton and Manchester-Chester via Stockport and via Warrington would be useful where off-wires routes on diesel are slower routes and less taxing on diesal engines. There are many others both sides on the Pennines.
110mph would really help on WCML and ECML.

 

[Neptune]

Yes this is exactly why the new order will be for bi-modes. All future electric needs will be catered for with these units as I mentioned upthread.

 

[Halifaxlad]

So where are 43 under utilised EMU’s going then? In the space where the DMU’s that were at the various temporary locations are supposed to be stabled? I’m sure my colleagues in fleet planning could really use your help on this please as they must be missing something.

If you want to know the actual plans I suggest you go and speak to your colleagues rather than asking questions in this speculative thread on 350'!

 

[Neptune]

If you want to know the actual plans I suggest you go and speak to your colleagues rather than asking questions in this speculative thread on 350'!

I know the plans but I’m asking you what you’d do as you’re suggesting alternative plans including stabling excess units in the east and that that isn’t a problem. You really shouldn’t make bold statements like that and then get defensive and try and turn it back on the person asking the question when you can’t back your statements up with any form of facts or claim that it’s going off thread when you can’t answer the question asked of your statement which was nothing to do with 350’s in the first place. See post 6 if you’ve forgotten what you boldly stated.

There are many temporary solutions for when the NL closure occurs (some known, some not yet in the public domain) but then you focused on the permanent one and told us that it’s no problem.

So back to what I asked, where would the DMU’s go that will no longer use the temporary stabling once NL is back open again? I can tell you it’ll be Neville Hill but you seem to think that there’ll be a magical space for 18 extra and unnecessary EMU’s which certainly won’t fit at Shipley EMUD. If you have the magic solution for additional units with no work that we’ve all missed then we’re all ears.

 

[deltic08]

I assumed in my post yesterday that 350/2s are being converted to bimodes using diesel engines. They could be converted to bimodes using battery. Does anyone know for sure?

 

[Neptune]

I assumed in my post yesterday that 350/2s are being converted to bimodes using diesel engines. They could be converted to bimodes using battery. Does anyone know for sure?

I don’t think anything has been confirmed about them. I seem to recall that there was once talk about batteries but that’s all gone quiet.

We certainly aren’t taking them at Northern as our fleet plan is in place.

 

[D365]

We certainly aren’t taking them at Northern as our fleet plan is in place.

Given that the Class 319, 323, 350/2 fleets are all owned by Porterbrook, I don’t see why - with respect to acquiring additional EMUs - Northern would have plans for anything other than Class 323s.