Advance tickets and travelling on earlier trains.

[19Gnasher69]

My wife and I were travelling from Crossflatts to Torquay via London last Saturday morning.
We wanted to catch the 07:15 LNER service from Leeds but the Split Ticketing booking system would only allow us to buy tickets for the 06:35 from Crossflatts within the single transaction. This would have given a notional 13 minutes connection which is fine but, given Northern’s recent performance I wasn’t confident that the train would even turn up, never mind run on time. Therefore we decided that it would be sensible to travel on the 06:03 and explain to the guard our rationale.
Needless to say he made us pay again for that leg of the journey.
Clearly he was technically correct but there are two mitigations here. There’s the moral element in such circumstances - Northern is incapable of delivering a reliable service so passengers either run the gauntlet when making connections or travel earlier. Secondly, seat bookings aren’t available on Northern’s Aire Valley trains, so it makes no difference to them whether we use one service or the other. The guard kept saying that, because we had advance tickets, they were cheaper but was unable to grasp the point that, if ticket booking systems were more flexible, we’d have paid the exact same price for either train.
Aside from highlighting Northern’s lack of customer care (actually a form of racketeering in my view which is backed by a Post Office-esque mechanism of prosecutions and fixed penalty notices), this seems to show a weakness in on-line ticketing systems. I couldn’t adjust it to include the earlier departure whilst retaining the booking on the LNER train. Am I simply a Luddite - is there a way of achieving this without booking two distinct journeys? And, by extension, what would be rail companies’ policies for missed connections when not travelling on a single ticket?

 

[Flying Snail]

You can use the extra options on some ticket retailers to add extra interchange time to (hopefully) get the booking engine to give you the connection you want.

Once Advance tickets have fixed trains listed you are risking worse than just a new ticket on a commuter line by using trains you are not booked on.

 

[AlterEgo]

My wife and I were travelling from Crossflatts to Torquay via London last Saturday morning.
We wanted to catch the 07:15 LNER service from Leeds but the Split Ticketing booking system would only allow us to buy tickets for the 06:35 from Crossflatts within the single transaction. This would have given a notional 13 minutes connection which is fine but, given Northern’s recent performance I wasn’t confident that the train would even turn up, never mind run on time. Therefore we decided that it would be sensible to travel on the 06:03 and explain to the guard our rationale.
Needless to say he made us pay again for that leg of the journey.
Clearly he was technically correct but there are two mitigations here. There’s the moral element in such circumstances - Northern is incapable of delivering a reliable service so passengers either run the gauntlet when making connections or travel earlier. Secondly, seat bookings aren’t available on Northern’s Aire Valley trains, so it makes no difference to them whether we use one service or the other. The guard kept saying that, because we had advance tickets, they were cheaper but was unable to grasp the point that, if ticket booking systems were more flexible, we’d have paid the exact same price for either train.
Aside from highlighting Northern’s lack of customer care (actually a form of racketeering in my view which is backed by a Post Office-esque mechanism of prosecutions and fixed penalty notices), this seems to show a weakness in on-line ticketing systems. I couldn’t adjust it to include the earlier departure whilst retaining the booking on the LNER train. Am I simply a Luddite - is there a way of achieving this without booking two distinct journeys? And, by extension, what would be rail companies’ policies for missed connections when not travelling on a single ticket?

Did you have a seat reservation or counted place for the train from Crossflatts to Leeds?

Use the forum's website to specify a longer connection time - I always do.

 

[19Gnasher69]

Thanks both. I’ll look at the longer connection time facility in future.
Seat reservations aren’t available on the Northern trains we used, so we must have had counted places.

 

[jamiearmley]

Another option is to book from Leeds to Torquay, and then book separately crossflatts to Leeds. It's what I always do now.

Unfortunately, Advance single tickets are heavily discounted and totally inflexible. You agreed to the stringent conditions when you made your purchase by ticking the box that states as such.Had the crossflatts train run late, you would have been entitled to take the next service from Leeds with the same operator : (the 0745, I would guess?). The same would follow for all the connections en route.

The other option is to buy a flexible ticket, which is more expensive but gives you the flexibility you desire.

Unfortunately, you cannot in this situation have your cake and eat it. You either accept the heavily restricted tickets conditions, or you pay more for flexibility, - or as said above, you book the crossflatts to Leeds leg separately, or specify a longer connection time at Leeds to force an earlier departure from crossflatts.

You were lucky to only be charged for a new ticket. Had you encountered a revenue officer, you would have been charged a penalty fare. There is some discussion on this forum at times as to the validity of this : but the fact remains that it would have cast a cloud over your journey and required time and effort to resolve.

I hope that you had a good journey! Torquay is a lovely part of the country at any time of year.

 

[robbeech]

Needless to say he made us pay again for that leg of the journey.

I must say, despite not being a fan of Northern's attitude to using our money to not run an acceptable service, I think this is likely bad luck. I've never had an issue with a Northern guard allowing earlier travel on a short connecting run.

Seat reservations aren’t available on the Northern trains we used, so we must have had counted places.

Don't be so sure, many of the routes are indeed counted place but some may not be. If you didn't have a counted place reservation then i would strongly consider (infact i would do so anyway) writing to Northern and asking if they will refund you (or perhaps offer you one of their complimentary travel passes so as not to cost them anything) for that additional ticket.

 

[30907]

Don't be so sure, many of the routes are indeed counted place but some may not be.

On a quick check, the Aire Valley service has (CP) reservations - any line where Northern does Advances will be the same.

 

[JonathanH]

When I last looked, I'm pretty sure all Northern trains are reservable on a counted place basis now.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

When I last looked, I'm pretty sure all Northern trains are reservable on a counted place basis now.

Even the weekly (Saturdays Only) "Denton Flyer"?

 

[yorkie]

My wife and I were travelling from Crossflatts to Torquay via London last Saturday morning.
We wanted to catch the 07:15 LNER service from Leeds but the Split Ticketing booking system would only allow us to buy tickets for the 06:35 from Crossflatts within the single transaction. This would have given a notional 13 minutes connection which is fine but, given Northern’s recent performance I wasn’t confident that the train would even turn up, never mind run on time.

For future reference, if your arrival time is absolutely crucial (and Delay Repay compensation won't cut the mustard), go to advanced options and specify change at Leeds: then specify extra minutes. For example if you say an extra 10 minutes, you would get at least 30 minutes between trains.

Therefore we decided that it would be sensible to travel on the 06:03 and explain to the guard our rationale.
Needless to say he made us pay again for that leg of the journey.

Unfortunately a minority of rail staff lack pragamatism and common sense. There are insufficient safeguards in place, so such people are able to behave in a manner that deters people from travelling by rail in future.

Clearly he was technically correct but there are two mitigations here. There’s the moral element in such circumstances - Northern is incapable of delivering a reliable service so passengers either run the gauntlet when making connections or travel earlier.

As I said above if anyone is desperate to minimise the chance of a delay, extra interchange time can be requested.

Secondly, seat bookings aren’t available on Northern’s Aire Valley trains, so it makes no difference to them whether we use one service or the other. The guard kept saying that, because we had advance tickets, they were cheaper but was unable to grasp the point that, if ticket booking systems were more flexible, we’d have paid the exact same price for either train.

Without knowing exactly what ticket(s) were held, it's difficult to say. If the ticket(s) were LNER & Connections then I'd say you have reasonable grounds to complain to Northern; I'd point out that by travelling earlier you were reducing Northern's liabilities in respect of delay compensation. However if the first ticket was a Northern Only advance, only valid on that train, then I'd just chalk it up to experience and you know what to do next time.

Aside from highlighting Northern’s lack of customer care (actually a form of racketeering in my view which is backed by a Post Office-esque mechanism of prosecutions and fixed penalty notices)

The similarities regarding the post office scandal are well founded but covered by a dedicated thread.

, this seems to show a weakness in on-line ticketing systems.

Not our system! Northern and LNER have that limitation, yes. Perhaps you could ask Northern what people should do, but I doubt you'd get a sensible answer out of them as I bet the people answering such emails aren't particularly knowledgeable.

I couldn’t adjust it to include the earlier departure whilst retaining the booking on the LNER train. Am I simply a Luddite - is there a way of achieving this without booking two distinct journeys?

If you are using our website, just go to advanced options, choose change at Leeds, and specify extra time (which will be added to the 10 min minimum)

And, by extension, what would be rail companies’ policies for missed connections when not travelling on a single ticket?

If the LNER is missed due to a Northern delay, you can either:

• take the next available LNER and claim compensation for the whole journey from Northern; or
• choose not to travel and obtain a full refund

Even the weekly (Saturdays Only) "Denton Flyer"?

Yes it does have counted place reservations. Maybe some don't but it's not relevant to this dispute.

Don't be so sure, many of the routes are indeed counted place but some may not be. If you didn't have a counted place reservation then i would strongly consider (infact i would do so anyway) writing to Northern and asking if they will refund you (or perhaps offer you one of their complimentary travel passes so as not to cost them anything) for that additional ticket.

Yes it's worth challenging Northern on this. If a proposed letter is posted here, we can collectively proof read it.

 

[JonathanH]

Even the weekly (Saturdays Only) "Denton Flyer"?

As it happens, yes - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W32404/2024-01-27/detailed - it is a reservable train with counted places.

To some extent it is fairly simple. If you have an advance ticket and it involves travel with Northern, it is only valid on that train, no matter who is the primary leg.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Options as I see them:

1: As suggested - book elsewhere if the advisable margins are not offered
or
2: Book it anyway and approach the guard BEFORE boarding the earlier service and ask. It's human nature to be more sympathetic if asked in advance rather that after the event (i.e. of boarding the train). No guarantees, of course. If they refuse then see 3.
or
3: Start your journey exactly on the booked itinerary. Complete it as booked. And if that isn't possible due to non- or late- running of your first service, then travel forward as permitted later, and claim delay repay. At worst you get (some of) your money back; at best it costs Northern who, if faced with enough such claims may begin to see a profit impact and either fix their service, or fix their staff attitudes, or fix their terms or any or all of these.

 

[yorkie]

Another option is to book from Leeds to Torquay, and then book separately crossflatts to Leeds. It's what I always do now.

I advise against this; although you still have the same rights in respect of compensation etc if you book it as separate journeys, it makes things much easier if you book it as one journey. Trains can be retimed, cancelled etc and if you have a through itinerary this makes it easier to deal with any potential problems.

Unfortunately, Advance single tickets are heavily discounted and totally inflexible.

In railway terminology, Advance fares are not "discounted" per se; the term discounted in railway ticketing has a very precise meaning. They are not "totally" inflexible for connections in all cases, for example if you book a Stevenage to Penzance ticket, on a specified GWR service, you may take any appropriate train between Stevenage and London, including an LNER even if not the "booked" train. I don't know if it still applies, but it certainly was TPE's policy to allow any appropriate train to be used for a connection into a longer distance service.

You agreed to the stringent conditions when you made your purchase by ticking the box that states as such.

True; this is where pragmatism comes into it.

Had the crossflatts train run late, you would have been entitled to take the next service from Leeds with the same operator : (the 0745, I would guess?). The same would follow for all the connections en route.

Agreed.

The other option is to buy a flexible ticket, which is more expensive but gives you the flexibility you desire.

True, but the desired level of flexibility is only on the connecting train, and that is difficult to achieve in one booking.

Unfortunately, you cannot in this situation have your cake and eat it.

I don't think the customer was actually trying to do that! They were not attempting to arrive early; they just wanted more interchange time.

If you go back 10 years, what the customer did would have not been questioned in the slightest and would have simply been seen as a simple case of taking an appropriate connecting train. That changed without proper consoltation or consideration and is an example of a change made b the rail industry which is very much to the detriment of customers.

You either accept the heavily restricted tickets conditions, or you pay more for flexibility, - or as said above, you book the crossflatts to Leeds leg separately, or specify a longer connection time at Leeds to force an earlier departure from crossflatts.

They are not asking for flexibility. Yes the solution is to specify a longer connection time, if it is considered crucial that they make the LNER service (e.g. if the customer has an appointment/event to make and is very keen to avoid a delay and where Delay Repay would be seen to be less benefitial than being on time).

You were lucky to only be charged for a new ticket.

No; they were unlucky not to encounter a pragmatic Guard. Most are pragmatic, in my experience.

Had you encountered a revenue officer, you would have been charged a penalty fare.

Again only if they lacked pragmatism and common sense; this also demonstrates how ridiculous the rail industry has become.