Advance Tickets - The Connecting Service "Bit"

[JamesM]

So, the journey is Maidstone East to Bristol Temple Meads on an advance ticket.

In the olden days, from memory, with these sort of long distance advance tickets (and I am thinking on Virgin Trains for instance) you were allowed to get any service for the unreserved 'connecting' bit, in this case being Maidstone East to London Victoria. Sure, you'd have a named service on the reservation, but you could get any you liked and that was fine. Given the connections were generous with time, you could save half an hour, especially on the way home, and get an earlier service for the 'connecting' part.

I've just asked a guard whether I can do that tonight, and he said no, that I had to take the named service on the ticket (ie London to Maidstone).

It's no problem, but I wondered what the policy was on that connecting service with these inter city services.

Hope that makes sense. To be clear, I am well aware I have to hit the specific London to Bristol service and vice versa. it's the bit before and after I am interested in. I wondered if things have changed since, say, 10 years ago.

Many thanks.

 

[Wallsendmag]

If you have a specific train on your ticket for either leg you should be on that service

 

[yorkie]

This is one of the negative changes we've seen in recent years unfortunately.

In your case of wanting to get an earlier local service after your main journey leg, most staff would be OK with it, but a few won't be (I am not a fan of the term but they are technically 'jobsworths' i.e. people who follow the rules to the letter without applying any common sense; they are a minority!)

 

[island]

Most Southeastern guards will be fine with this, but there's always the chance you'll get one who's a stickler. A paper ticket (that is to say, credit card size ticket) is more likely to be accepted than an e-ticket, as guards tend to just glance at the former whereas they will scan the latter and their app will come up red stating you're on the wrong train.

 

[redreni]

Relatedly, has anyone else noticed a lot of the better value advances are no longer available as through tickets from their local station?

When I'm travelling a long distance it often means travelling from zone 6 in SE London by train and tube to a London Terminal and then taking an intercity train from there. I would try and book this as a maltese cross ticket either as a through ticket to my final destination or, if using split tickets, with the first ticket to include, as a minimum, the journey from home to the London Terminal and the first bit of the journey on the intercity train. I would want to do this even if it was a little dearer than using PAYG to get to the London Terminal. This was mainly in case disruption on the way to the London Terminal prevented me catching the booked intercity train despite me turning up at my local station on time according to my itinerary. I wanted my rights to delay repay and, where applicable, rerouting under PRO to be preserved in that case. If I've only booked a journey that starts at the London Terminal and have no ticket or itinerary for my journey from home to there, then I have no protection at all against not being at the London Terminal on time. As a side benefit if I'm delayed en route after leaving London, the delay repay reflects the cost of the through ticket, so I get part of the whole fare back, whereas if I used PAYG then I obviously wouldn't get any of that back in the event of a delay to my overall journey.

But every time I've bagged a cheap advance single recently (examples include to Birmingham International on Avanti and to Doncaster on Hull Trains) when I've queried an itinerary originating at my local station the advance fare simply hasn't been offered. They seem to be valid on the TOC's services only, rather than on the TOC plus connections, at least at the London end.

These petty and, from an industry point of view, patently self-defeating time restrictions on local connections are very annoying, anyway. I wonder if there's any way of adding an advanced option to journey planners to help defeat this nonsense?

What would be really helpful is a journey planner that will give me an itinerary where I specify the stations where I start and end my intercity journey as split points for ticketing and I specify that I am happy with fixed-time tickets between those two points but I want flexible tickets for the rest of the journey, and I want a single itinerary for the whole journey.

 

[mangyiscute]

Yeah my rule is typically to ask the train manager for permission before boarding the train, at least that's what i've done on a Canterbury to Oxford ticket (which is perhaps slightly different as you wouldn't say there's a clear "main" service for that ticket) but I made it to Paddington in time for the oxford train 30 mins before my scheduled one and i was allowed to take the earlier train. I often do advances to Reading, and on these I have always just taken the first train from Paddington (which is very rarely the train on the ticket) and I've never had an issue. Often though, I find that there are cheaper advance tickets through to Reading which route you onto a slower train from Paddington to Reading (one that stops at Slough and Maidenhead etc) but since these trains are unreservable, it doesn't show on the ticket, and I think you'd have to get super unlucky to get someone who told you you can't take a fast gwr train on a, for example, lner & connections ticket where no gwr train is specified on the ticket.

 

[redreni]

Yeah my rule is typically to ask the train manager for permission before boarding the train, at least that's what i've done on a Canterbury to Oxford ticket (which is perhaps slightly different as you wouldn't say there's a clear "main" service for that ticket) but I made it to Paddington in time for the oxford train 30 mins before my scheduled one and i was allowed to take the earlier train. I often do advances to Reading, and on these I have always just taken the first train from Paddington (which is very rarely the train on the ticket) and I've never had an issue. Often though, I find that there are cheaper advance tickets through to Reading which route you onto a slower train from Paddington to Reading (one that stops at Slough and Maidenhead etc) but since these trains are unreservable, it doesn't show on the ticket, and I think you'd have to get super unlucky to get someone who told you you can't take a fast gwr train on a, for example, lner & connections ticket where no gwr train is specified on the ticket.

Sounds like the problem is worse up North.

I did have the issue when engineering works meant LNER trains were terminating at St Neots and my itinerary was rail replacement bus to Bedford then Thameslink to Farringdon.

The bus transfer took much less time than had been allowed for and I asked the guard on an EMR fast train to St Pancras if he would accept my ticket. He essentially told me to get lost (understandably perhaps as my itinerary said Thameslink) but then there were also two earlier Thameslink departures than the specified one and no guard to ask.

Probably nobody would have checked but given the itinerary was actually printed on my ticket which said "booked train(s) only) across the top, I didn't want to chance an encounter with a revenue protection person so I waited quite a long time.

This is where the industry doesn't cover itself in glory - the East Coast Mainline was closed and I, the fare paying passenger, have had to take a bus. Is that not enough of an inconvenience already without BS time restrictions on a high-frequency suburban train?

 

[181]

Can we clarify things? This thread gives the impression that all travel on an Advance has to be on the specified trains, unless you ask the guard nicely and he/she lets you on.

However, another recent thread gives the impression that this isn't a universal rule, just one that applies to trains designated as 'reservable', and the problem is that more trains are now so designated, including ones that you wouldn't expect.

Is the latter correct? Andd if so, is there an easy way of finding out which trains are 'reservable'?

 

[AlterEgo]

Can we clarify things? This thread gives the impression that all travel on an Advance has to be on the specified trains, unless you ask the guard nicely and he/she lets you on.

However, another recent thread gives the impression that this isn't a universal rule, just one that applies to trains designated as 'reservable', and the problem is that more trains are now so designated, including ones that you wouldn't expect.

Is the latter correct? Andd if so, is there an easy way of finding out which trains are 'reservable'?

The answer is in the second post. If you are reserved onto a train and have a reservation or counted place, you must be on that train.

 

[181]

If you are reserved onto a train and have a reservation or counted place, you must be on that train.

But if you have an itinerary that lists a train without a reservation or counted place, you can take a different train?

(I have a printed e-ticket in front of me that has a 'main' intercity train with a seat reservation, and a connecting local train against which it says 'no reservation').

 

[Gaelan]

But if you have an itinerary that lists a train without a reservation or counted place, you can take a different train?

(I have a printed e-ticket in front of me that has a 'main' intercity train with a seat reservation, and a connecting local train against which it says 'no reservation').

My understanding (from prior forum threads) is that:

* Officially, you are required to travel on exactly the itinerary as booked, regardless of what appears on your ticket.
* On paper tickets, this is essentially unenforceable, as unreserved services aren't printed on the ticket.
* On e-tickets, it's unlikely to be enforced: unreservable services aren't encoded into the barcode, so the staff would have to manually read the itinerary shown alongside your ticket (or, depending on the app used, click to a separate screen showing the itinerary); and, in any case, staff on unreservable routes are unlikely to care.

 

[Watershed]

My understanding (from prior forum threads) is that:

* Officially, you are required to travel on exactly the itinerary as booked, regardless of what appears on your ticket.
* On paper tickets, this is essentially unenforceable, as unreserved services aren't printed on the ticket.
* On e-tickets, it's unlikely to be enforced: unreservable services aren't encoded into the barcode, so the staff would have to manually read the itinerary shown alongside your ticket (or, depending on the app used, click to a separate screen showing the itinerary); and, in any case, staff on unreservable routes are unlikely to care.

Nearly right - some paper tickets do show the full itinerary (including unreserved services). It depends on the manufacturer and configuration of the machine used to print your ticket.

Also for e-tickets, my understanding is that the full itinerary is encoded into the barcode but I'm happy to be corrected on that.

 

[crablab]

Also for e-tickets, my understanding is that the full itinerary is encoded into the barcode but I'm happy to be corrected on that.

Yeah there is a field for reservations. I don't know what the maximum amount of data you can put in it is, however.

 

[Snow1964]

Generally if you do ticket prior to departure (credit size ones from machines) then you can use any connecting service because it only ever seems to list the main train, and then just says "and connections".

The ticket is too small to show whole itinerary (which you will have on a separate email). So although not technically allowed, guard can't tell if you are on wrong connecting train when they look at ticket.

Not sure if it will print separate itinerary if you have specific seat allocated on the connection, but most local trains don't have a numbered seat

 

[Watershed]

Generally if you do ticket prior to departure (credit size ones from machines) then you can use any connecting service because it only ever seems to list the main train, and then just says "and connections".

The ticket is too small to show whole itinerary (which you will have on a separate email). So although not technically allowed, guard can't tell if you are on wrong connecting train when they look at ticket.

Not sure if it will print separate itinerary if you have specific seat allocated on the connection, but most local trains don't have a numbered seat

Again this depends on the machine in question and how it's been configured. Some print a second ticket to show the reservation(s) and itinerary.

 

[Snow1964]

Again this depends on the machine in question and how it's been configured. Some print a second ticket to show the reservation(s) and itinerary.

Yes, some do, not all, and I am not sure the extras that come out are actually tickets, and like the one that is a receipt, don't actually have to be shown to a ticket inspector.

I think you only have to show tickets, railcards, etc. Not receipts and itineraries on separate bits of paper (including separate credit card sized ticket stock)

 

[crablab]

Some may be mandatory reservation coupons, which are required for your ticket to be valid.

As Watershed says, "it depends".

 

[Snow1964]

Some may be mandatory reservation coupons, which are required for your ticket to be valid.

As Watershed says, "it depends".

I will accept that, but I personally have never seen a mandatory reservation coupon for a connection without allocated seat, even if it exists on the main train. And never come anyone asking to see one on a train without seat allocations either if already offered just the ticket.

 

[JonathanH]

Again this depends on the machine in question and how it's been configured. Some print a second ticket to show the reservation(s) and itinerary.

Out of interest, which machines do you know to now print unreserveable trains on paper tickets?

 

[JBuchananGB]

This is an interesting discussion. My next trip is Southport to Sidcup. Advance tickets already in my possession each single issued as 3 CCST coupons. No splits, Maltese cross just visible for cross-London transfer. Route +AWC &CONNECTIONS.
Counted place booking on Southport to Wigan. Printed ticket for Mandatory reservation without reserved seat.
Reserved seat on Wigan to Euston. Printed ticket for Mandatory reservation with reserved seat.
Itinerary issued by Greater Anglia (from whom I bought the tickets) says go to Victoria for train to Sidcup, but no reservations. Other journey planners say go to London Bridge and join the Sidcup train there. How close do I have to follow the itinerary that came with the ticket, as regards getting from Euston to Sidcup? Same question for the return journey really. I know I have to be on the booked train from Euston to Wigan, but if I am ready to leave Sidcup earlier than the train on the itinerary, will that be a problem?

 

[Gaelan]

Itinerary issued by Greater Anglia (from whom I bought the tickets) says go to Victoria for train to Sidcup, but no reservations. Other journey planners say go to London Bridge and join the Sidcup train there. How close do I have to follow the itinerary that came with the ticket, as regards getting from Euston to Sidcup? Same question for the return journey really. I know I have to be on the booked train from Euston to Wigan, but if I am ready to leave Sidcup earlier than the train on the itinerary, will that be a problem?

Officially you have to follow the GA-issued itinerary, but anything not printed on your tickets is extremely unlikely to be enforced.

 

[Haywain]

I will accept that, but I personally have never seen a mandatory reservation coupon for a connection without allocated seat, even if it exists on the main train. And never come anyone asking to see one on a train without seat allocations either if already offered just the ticket.

I have several such coupons on the desk in front of me, and have regularly been asked to show them to show that I am on the right train (this is for 'counted place' reservations).

Officially you have to follow the GA-issued itinerary, but anything not printed on your tickets is extremely unlikely to be enforced.

Where card (CCST) tickets are concerned, I am not aware of anything that says that you have to follow the itinerary provided at the time of booking for non-reserved trains, and I would be astonished if there was an attempt to enforce it. There is no requirement to carry or show a completely separate itinerary with you when travelling with CCST tickets, so it is difficult to see how it could be enforced. However, you should always ensure that you do not travel on a later or slower (arriving later) service than that shown at the time of booking when connections to booked trains are being made subsequently, as to do so would remove any protection against delays en route.

 

[Gaelan]

Where card (CCST) tickets are concerned, I am not aware of anything that says that you have to follow the itinerary provided at the time of booking for non-reserved trains, and I would be astonished if there was an attempt to enforce it.

From the advance ticket terms:

4.1 Tickets are valid ONLY on the date and train service(s) shown on the ticket(s).
4.4 If the ‘Route’ also states ‘and Connections’, travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

Emphasis mine.

I, too, would be absolutely shocked if this were ever enforced.

 

[xotGD]

I have a couple of paper advances for next week. The ticket says "Mandatory reservations detailed on coupon xyz" and on coupon xyz the local Airedale services are listed, along with the LNER. Gives the clear impression that the full itinerary is mandatory.

I find this a bit of a pain when it is something like a +10 at Leeds. I would rather catch an earlier service to be sure of making the connection, having time to buy a coffee too.

Also on the return when a +8 or +9 isn't the valid connection but you have time to make it. However, often the guard says OK.

I don't want to select "Allow longer for connections" as then I would be stuffed for a +10 on the return journey.

 

[Gaelan]

I don't want to select "Allow longer for connections" as then I would be stuffed for a +10 on the return journey.

TrainSplit (or this forum's booking site, which has the same underlying system) has an option to specify different options for the outbound and return.

 

[Adam Williams]

Also for e-tickets, my understanding is that the full itinerary is encoded into the barcode but I'm happy to be corrected on that.

Basically, yes.

The format has the capability for encoding up to 4 journey legs. This covers the retail service ID, the coach identifier and the seat number (with provisions for encoding legs without any reservation at all, too) for each leg. I've not seen a concrete statement specifying which legs must be encoded and in the absence of that I believe most implementers will just pick the first 4 chronologically which actually have an RSID. Trainline and the implementers I've seen will definitely do this, including the unreserved legs.

In theory you could issue an E-Ticket without encoding any legs at all, though due to the way RCS works it would be problematic to allow customers to buy products as E-Tickets without an actual planned journey (particularly for those products which are defined to group stations, because the E-Ticketability can vary based on where the customer actually intends to travel).

 

[xotGD]

TrainSplit (or this forum's booking site, which has the same underlying system) has an option to specify different options for the outbound and return.

Thanks. That's useful to know.

 

[crablab]

This covers the retail service ID, the coach identifier

Thanks! It's good to confirm the maximum length of the data field.

Where do the RSIDs come from? I feel like someone's answered this before, but it's not something usually displayed, well, anywhere. I think some booking engines do display an identifier which looks similar, but I don't know if that's the RSID or something internal to that site.

 

[Adam Williams]

Thanks! It's good to confirm the maximum length of the data field.

Where do the RSIDs come from? I feel like someone's answered this before, but it's not something usually displayed, well, anywhere. I think some booking engines do display an identifier which looks similar, but I don't know if that's the RSID or something internal to that site.

timetables.trainsplit.com/TTH displays it in the footer.

RTT won't display it because it comes from RDG.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

timetables.trainsplit.com/TTH displays it in the footer.

I seem to be getting a 404 error when trying to view that site.

Server Error​

404 - File or directory not found.​

The resource you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.​