Advice re invalid refunds etc

[Ica]

Hi guys

I have been following a lot of your brilliant advice on here before drafting a response to my letter attached.
I unfortunately do not have much in the case of defence for their findings and as such have followed your advice of apologising, not admitting too much and asking for an out of court settlement.
Can you kindly review the letter and my response with any changes I could make?

My reply-

Please accept my most sincere apology for not travelling with a valid ticket when stopped for questioning on the 16th April.

On the 15th April 2023 I purchased a valid day return ticket from Haddenham & Thame Parkway to London Marylebone, however ensued to miss the last train home. Subsequently, on the 16th April 2023, I bought a ticket to Wembley Stadium due to a total lack of judgement and financial pressure, and boarded the train to Haddenham & Thame parkway.
This was a hugely irresponsible decision which I wholly regret. I understand that Chiltern Railways can only function when fees are paid my passengers to cover the true distance travelled.
As I am a regular customer on the trains, I have purchased a variety of valid railcards over the years, from 16-25, 25-30 and in more recent years, annual Network railcards. My most recent of these Network railcard was accidentally duplicated therefore I paid for 2 cards within the same year.
Any train ticket used before 10am with an associated invalid railcard discount would have been genuine mistake. I do not use the trains for early morning commuting and as such am not familiar with adjusting my railcard discount around timings.
However, I understand this is entirely my responsibility to double check at what time my railcard is valid to start and end every time I book a ticket.
I am extremely sorry for my mistake and any disruption that this has brought upon Chiltern Railways which I consider to be a brilliant train company that I have used and will continue to use for many years.
I would greatly appreciate the opportunity for an out of court settlement and would be willing to pay a fee to cover your costs.

Thank you

 

[AlterEgo]

Quick question before we start offering advice...

When did you receive the letter and what is the date on it?

The company has six months to commence proceedings in court and are very close to being out of time.

 

[Ica]

Quick question before we start offering advice...

When did you receive the letter and what is the date on it?

The company has six months to commence proceedings in court and are very close to being out of time.

I did wonder about that. It was sent 18th sept.

 

[AlterEgo]

So they're just in time then, as the 21 days takes them up to 9th October. Is there any reason you have left it until now to respond to them? Your deadline is Monday!

Exactly where were you stopped? I note you had a Marylebone to Wembley ticket.

 

[Ica]

So they're just in time then, as the 21 days takes them up to 9th October. Is there any reason you have left it until now to respond to them? Your deadline is Monday!

Exactly where were you stopped? I note you had a Marylebone to Wembley ticket.

I’ve been putting it off as have been stressing me to start a draft!

I was stopped at Marylebone.
I haven’t mentioned anything to do with the invalid refunds so far as don’t have anything to defend myself.

 

[AlterEgo]

I’ve been putting it off as have been stressing me to start a draft!

I was stopped at Marylebone.
I haven’t mentioned anything to do with the invalid refunds so far as don’t have anything to defend myself.

Where do "invalid refunds" come into this? Are these unrelated offences?

Can you lay out exactly what has happened, from the beginning? This is important. You were stopped at Marylebone - BEFORE you got on any train?

 

[Ica]

On the Trainline app you can request refunds for tickets you bought but didn’t use. So by invalid refunds I mean receiving a refund on a ticket that had in fact already been used.

And yes I was on the train when stopped. I had gone to the ticket office to enquire if I could exchange my day return ticket (which had expired the day before). They said no. We then stupidly and obviously bought a short ticket to Wembley instead but boarded a train for haddenham and Thame parkway. That’s when we were followed and stopped on the train.

Perhaps actually worth mentioning that I had already paid for the full journey (valid day return) the day before but had just not used it.

 

[Haywain]

Perhaps actually worth mentioning that I had already paid for the full journey (valid day return) the day before but had just not used it.

That is of no help to you at all.

 

[30907]

Could I suggest that you label the different topics in your letter 1, 2, 3... as I was a bit confused.
1 would be the short-fare
2 the misuse of railcard discount.
3 refunded tickets

Delete the bit about having 2 railcards at once - tough luck I'm afraid.

On 2, you need to explain convincingly how you got railcard-discounted tickets for when they weren't valid - one common way to do this is to choose a time of day when they ARE valid and use them earlier, which is obviously fraudulent.

On 3, you need to look at your accounts and decide whether to challenge their allegation that you refunded tickets that had been used but not scanned.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Time is of the essence here, you need to reply very quickly. If you don't then it's likely they will lay papers before the court just before the six months deadline from the date of the offence. If it ends up in court you would be convicted because all Chiltern/TIL have to show is that you didn't possess a ticket for the journey you made.

Assuming you wish to keep this out of court then I would keep things simple and suggest you research your own Trainline ticket purchasing history (which you can do through your account) and make a list of the journeys you made where:

- You travelled with a short fare
- You made journeys with a railcard at invalid times
- You incorrectly requested and received a refund

Set these out in your reply to TIL. I would also mention the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Cut out the bits about missing the last train home, being a regular customer, history of purchasing railcards, Chiltern being a brilliant company - none of it's relevent.

We can't guarantee that you'll be offered an out of court settlement. Often with TIL you have to work hard to get a settlement and send a couple of replies to them but if you are offered a settlement I expect it will cost around £150 plus the cost of the fares avoided at full Anytime prices with no credit given for the tickets you used incorrectly.

Given time is tight you'll need to send your reply by email but do make sure you send a scanned copy of the letter (with your signature) otherwise they won't accept it.

If you post a copy of your revised letter in this thread we'll be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[John R]

The aggravating factor in this case is that you appear to have adopted several methods of not paying the correct fare, not just one, so the investigators will likely consider this to be more than a simple lapse of judgment, or exploiting a potential loophole without considering the consequences. So there may be less of an inclination to offer you the get out of an OOC settlement, and you may have to work harder in your letter to show genuine remorse.

Also, I notice reference to “we” in the description of the incident which drew you to their attention, and wonder whether your travelling companion is in a similar situation with regard to the threat of legal action.

 

[Ica]

Welcome to the forum!

Time is of the essence here, you need to reply very quickly. If you don't then it's likely they will lay papers before the court just before the six months deadline from the date of the offence. If it ends up in court you would be convicted because all Chiltern/TIL have to show is that you didn't possess a ticket for the journey you made.

Assuming you wish to keep this out of court then I would keep things simple and suggest you research your own Trainline ticket purchasing history (which you can do through your account) and make a list of the journeys you made where:

- You travelled with a short fare
- You made journeys with a railcard at invalid times
- You incorrectly requested and received a refund

Set these out in your reply to TIL. I would also mention the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Cut out the bits about missing the last train home, being a regular customer, history of purchasing railcards, Chiltern being a brilliant company - none of it's relevent.

We can't guarantee that you'll be offered an out of court settlement. Often with TIL you have to work hard to get a settlement and send a couple of replies to them but if you are offered a settlement I expect it will cost around £150 plus the cost of the fares avoided at full Anytime prices with no credit given for the tickets you used incorrectly.

Given time is tight you'll need to send your reply by email but do make sure you send a scanned copy of the letter (with your signature) otherwise they won't accept it.

If you post a copy of your revised letter in this thread we'll be happy to proof read it for you.

Hi hadders

Thanks so much for this.

I seem to only be able to access as far back as June this year on my Trainline account so will not be able to provide TIL with all the dates of my journeys.

Do you think it would be acceptable to simply admit to general short ticketing/ rail card/ refunds etc without outlining them?
Or they would TIL respond better to at least outlining those that I can see?

Updated reply from your advice-

Dear Sir/Madam,
Please accept my most sincere apology for not travelling with a valid ticket when stopped for questioning on the 16th April.
Travelling with a short ticket was irresponsible and regardless of circumstance, I have learnt that there is no excuse.

With regards to railcard usage before 10am, I have purchased a variety of valid railcards over the years, from 16-25, 25-30 and in more recent years, annual Network railcards.
Any journey found in your investigation to have an incorrect railcard discount applied was booked as a genuine mistake for which I truly apologise.
I appreciate it is solely my responsibility to acknowledge the times of the day to which my railcard is valid for use. I will ensure going forward that this is always checked before booking.

With reference to refunds, I understand I have incorrectly received refunds for journeys travelled. This was unwise and incredibly stupid. I have learnt my lesson the hard way and will not repeat the same mistake again.

I am extremely sorry the inconvenience that this has brought upon Chiltern Railways.
I would greatly appreciate the opportunity to settle this out of court and am prepared to pay any outstanding fare and administrative costs in dealing with the matter.

The aggravating factor in this case is that you appear to have adopted several methods of not paying the correct fare, not just one, so the investigators will likely consider this to be more than a simple lapse of judgment, or exploiting a potential loophole without considering the consequences. So there may be less of an inclination to offer you the get out of an OOC settlement, and you may have to work harder in your letter to show genuine remorse.

Also, I notice reference to “we” in the description of the incident which drew you to their attention, and wonder whether your travelling companion is in a similar situation with regard to the threat of legal action.

He has just accepted an out of court fine thankfully.
But had a different set of circumstances ie- mostly just travelling with no railcard

 

[AlterEgo]

I don’t think you’re going to be able to just blandly say that every time you used a railcard before it was valid it was just a plain old mistake. This is in the context of you using at least two other methods to dishonestly obtain refunds or avoid paying the correct fare.

Being passive and saying “I have received refunds” completely avoids responsibility for what you did. You should be more upfront with your language here. You did this, you knew what you were doing and Chiltern know this too.

Overall the letter doesn’t read like it comes from someone who understands or cares about how much trouble they’re in, so I would start again and think about how the person receiving it might feel when they read it.

 

[Hadders]

I agree with @AlterEgo I think you need to start again with your letter it needs to come across as more conciliatory and in my view it does not conveny this at all in its current form. Sorry to be blunt but if you want to keep this out of court this is something you need to get right.

I seem to only be able to access as far back as June this year on my Trainline account so will not be able to provide TIL with all the dates of my journeys.

I'm surprised you can't see back further. Is this on the mobile version? The desktop version will probably show more.

Do you think it would be acceptable to simply admit to general short ticketing/ rail card/ refunds etc without outlining them?

You need to take accountability for what yo have done. I would say something like:

'I have researched my Trainline account and found x occasions where I purchased a short ticket'..

Then do similar for refunds. I'd have thought you can see refunds in your account history. If not then look at your bank statements.

Or they would TIL respond better to at least outlining those that I can see?

If you genuinly can only see back to June then say this but also refer mention that there will be earlier journeys as well. Some might say this is incriminating yourself but TIL know this - what they want is the truth from you. You don't have to tell them this but if you don't the chances of it ending up in court are much higher.

Sorry to be blunt about this but you aren't in a strong position and if you want to keeo this out of court then you've got to put in some work this weekend.

 

[Ica]

Hi again

Thank you for your ongoing advice, I don’t mind blunt as it needs to be right.
You’re right it doesn’t sound genuine so have gone for total honesty.
Turns out the last journey I am seeing on the Trainline app is June 2022 (not 2023 as I thought) so I can access it all thankfully.

Latest total upheaval draft-

Please accept my most sincere apologies. Let me start by saying I am thoroughly ashamed. I would like to be entirely honest in this statement and outline any times I have knowingly purchased short tickets, taken journeys at a time when my railcard was not valid, and applied for a refund.



1- Short tickets.
dates inserted

2- Travelling with railcard applied before 10am
I can not see any journeys on my account for this but am willing to admit that this may have occurred

3- Refunds
dates inserted

I am extremely remorseful for the above and truly humiliated that it has come to an investigation, costing you time and inconvenience.
I’ve learnt from this that Chiltern rail can only run when passengers pay their way. It is solely my responsibility to understand the times that my railcard is and isn’t valid to be applied. There are no excuses for avoiding fares, regardless of personal circumstance and I have truly learnt that lesson the hard way.
I hope that this statement portrays the remorse I feel and the responsibility I take for all wrongdoing.

I would greatly appreciate the opportunity to settle this out of court and would be prepared to pay for all that I have cost you on these occasions, any outstanding fares plus administrative costs in dealing with the matter.

 

[RPI]

One thing I will add of relevance, the 6 month thing is not so much of an issue now, some TOC's are and have started to claim back monies for older offences through the county courts, obviously there is a longer time allowed to reclaim money through this method.

 

[Hadders]

This version is better than your original one. I would add a sentence saying that you’ve researched your Trainline ticket purchasing history and these are the irregularities.