Applying for Qualified train driver jobs, with a depot driver licence

[mindthedoors]

A straight yes, no answer would do. I have a Train Driver Licence, but my job title is Depot Driver.
In my eyes, I have a licence where I've had to pass tests and assessments to earn, so why can't I use this to apply for mainline jobs?

 

[LCC106]

TDK or others may be better able to help with this but I suspect if this is the case then it's because, at our TOC certainly, the depot drivers were only in the classroom for a third of the time that the mainline drivers were.

I suspect qualified mainline drivers would only require training in traction and on the routes, whereas a depot driver would need more training in the rules that apply to mainline drivers and therefore take longer to be productive.

Should certainly be a good grounding for trainee positions though!

 

[Beveridges]

It is not simply a yes or no answer.

You will be able to apply for qualified Depot Driver roles but may not be able to apply for qualified mainline driver roles.

The reason is that Depot Drivers normally have not learned all the mainline rulebook modules, as the DD course ommits temp block working, pilotman working, single line working, assistance protection and only partly covers level crossings, speeds and failures in service.
I am a DD myself but have an understanding of those rules as I've read them out of interest. But I'm not assessed on them.
To be a qualified mainline driver you would have to be competant in those rules and also have done 230-odd hours practical handling on the mainline.

Some TOC's have a specific, much shorter course, designed to train depot drivers to mainline. But other TOC's don't have this specific course, you would have to start again, right from the beginning, doing the same course as someone off the street. But at least you'll find most of it a lot easier than everyone else.

Only if your Depot Driving role includes taking units off the depot and bringing them into the main station you might be able to apply for qualified mainline driving without having to do any classroom rules course. But even as a qualified mainline driver you would have to do all the route learning and traction training (if the traction/routes are different to what you sign already).

 

[185]

Only if your Depot Driving role includes taking units off the depot and bringing them into the main station you might be able to apply for qualified mainline driving without doing any sort of course. But even as a qualified mainline driver you would have to do all the route learning and traction training (where the traction/routes are different to what you sign already).

Agree totally with Beveridges. The job description is very different at many operators (shunter, driver operator...etc), and only very few have mainline rulebook training included to move trains from shed to station. If as Beveridges says, your job is one of the very few that does include this, then it is likely that it will count in your favour in applying for a mainline post.

That said, even without mainline on your depot card, already being a depot driver with a good record is perhaps the best position possible to be in to apply from.

 

[Dave1987]

I know a depot driver who was GEML and applied for a qualified driver position with SWT. They accepted him as he only needed to do modules 4 and 5, and they were prepared to train him. He only spent 5 weeks in the classroom "catching up" to mainline driver standard. Applying for mainline qualified jobs as a depot driver can be successful as you are already 2/3 of the way there (at least on GEML you are).

 

[Beveridges]

Applying for mainline qualified jobs as a depot driver can be successful as you are already 2/3 of the way there (at least on GEML you are).

There is also the 230-hours mainline practical handling that is required, but they could do that at the same time as the road learning, so probably not that much of a big deal.

 

[Dave1987]

There is also the 230-hours mainline practical handling that is required, but they could do that at the same time as the road learning, so probably not that much of a big deal.

Indeed there is although I think it is 225 hours wheels turning. But you can see it from there point of view. A depot driver will already have good experience in driving trains, fault finding, prepping and have a good knowledge of the rules. Infact Depot Drivers on GA are asked a lot of mainline questions on their summary assessments/bi-annual to prepare them for mainline training.

 

[notadriver]

In general the answer is no. TOCs usually want a driver no longer in probation - that is to say having 2 years of main line experience. The reason for this is to show they have a good safety of the line record. Qualified drivers don't need the full 225 hours of practical handling and thus are cheaper to employ and sought by TOCs wanting experienced drivers.

But there is nothing wrong with applying for the trainee driver positions where you'll stand a better chance than most of getting a place on the course.

 

[TDK]

A straight yes, no answer would do. I have a Train Driver Licence, but my job title is Depot Driver.
In my eyes, I have a licence where I've had to pass tests and assessments to earn, so why can't I use this to apply for mainline jobs?

Decause you are not a mainline qualified driver. You will need to go through the same process as all other non mainline drivers do, it is a different grade so therefore will be recognised as a different grade however you should have no trouble getting through the sift and if you have evidence of passing psychometric testing for the MDD hopefully you will not have to do these again but the company would need evidence of your pass rate and date.


Hope this helps.

 

[Beveridges]

Indeed there is although I think it is 225 hours wheels turning. But you can see it from there point of view. A depot driver will already have good experience in driving trains, fault finding, prepping and have a good knowledge of the rules. Infact Depot Drivers on GA are asked a lot of mainline questions on their summary assessments/bi-annual to prepare them for mainline training.

An MDD will normally have far more experience of fault finding than a mainline driver. This is why some TOC's put MDD's through a much shorter course when they move to mainline, missing out traction completely. Examples I can think of are Greater Anglia, EMT, SWT, Northern (East Only).
Unfortunately many other TOC's put MDD's through the entire course again, starting right from the beginning with the other trainees.

 

[Dave1987]

Decause you are not a mainline qualified driver. You will need to go through the same process as all other non mainline drivers do, it is a different grade so therefore will be recognised as a different grade however you should have no trouble getting through the sift and if you have evidence of passing psychometric testing for the MDD hopefully you will not have to do these again but the company would need evidence of your pass rate and date.


Hope this helps.

Sorry I disagree, like I said I know a depot driver on GA who applied for a mainline job at SWT and got it. You are suggesting that depot drivers are in the same boat as a person off the street which just isn't true.

 

[Beveridges]

In Greater Anglia, EMT, SWT, East side of Northern a Maintenance Depot Driver would only have to do a shorter course to become mainline qualified.

In Northern (West) and Arriva Trains Wales a Maintenance Depot Driver would be in the same boat as someone off the street in the sense that they have to do the entire course again. Even though they will find it easier it will still take the same time.

It's one of those things that's TOC specific. On the classroom side some TOC's just make them do the whole thing when all they need really is few weeks on rules.

 

[notadriver]

They don't just need a few weeks of rules. They need the full 225+ hours of driving with an instructor and a full final assessment.

 

[Beveridges]

I meant on the classroom side. Of cause, after that, they would have to do about 230 hrs driving minimum but that could be obtained while route learning.

 

[Dave1987]

They don't just need a few weeks of rules. They need the full 225+ hours of driving with an instructor and a full final assessment.

Yes but a mainline driver needs 2-3 weeks plus route learning each route, they are being paid while not being productive as well. 225 hours can be achieved in about 38 days based on roughly 6 hours wheels turning driving per turn taking into account pnb's and such like. Plus a mainline driver to a new TOC would have to take a summary assessment before getting their routes signed off.

 

[Beveridges]

A qualified mainline driver changing TOC's would need to do considerable route learning which could potentially take around 225 hours anyway.

I think the bigger costs of taking an MDD is the PQA system where assessments/management rideouts are much more frequent during the first two years of driving.

Thats why when TOC's ask for qualified drivers, they prefer one who has done 2 years on mainline or more.

 

[mindthedoors]

Thanks for the response. I know someone who applied for a trainee train driver role for FGW. Once successful to the processing stages of their application, they were informed to apply for the mainline vacancy instead. I don't know how that would work? My guess is that someone in the HR department has over valued a depot driver qualification, or maybe there is a way of completing the rest of the course and the 225 driving hours like SWT?

 

[Dave1987]

Thanks for the response. I know someone who applied for a trainee train driver role for FGW. Once successful to the processing stages of their application, they were informed to apply for the mainline vacancy instead. I don't know how that would work? My guess is that someone in the HR department has over valued a depot driver qualification, or maybe there is a way of completing the rest of the course and the 225 driving hours like SWT?

The point is a depot driver only needs to complete modules 4 & 5 and then complete their 225 hours. Compare this to a person off the street who would take a year to train to mainline standard. Also a depot driver is already used to driving trains, coupling/uncoupling, prepping, fault finding so a depot driver is still attractive to a TOC, just not as attractive as an already qualified mainline driver with 2 yrs experience. I would suggest you have undervalued a depot driver.

 

[E&W Lucas]

The point is a depot driver only needs to complete modules 4 & 5 and then complete their 225 hours. Compare this to a person off the street who would take a year to train to mainline standard. Also a depot driver is already used to driving trains, coupling/uncoupling, prepping, fault finding so a depot driver is still attractive to a TOC, just not as attractive as an already qualified mainline driver with 2 yrs experience. I would suggest you have undervalued a depot driver.

I'd agree with those above, who have said it is a totally different role. A depot driver has no experience of driving a train "in anger" - fog, adverse rail conditions, etc. The GE are atypical, in that the role is in your line of promotion. AFAIK, everywhere else, it is simply a cheap(er) option, for covering depot work.

The depot driver will still need front end turns, train handling, traction (unless already signed, to the same standard, and if moving company, they will probably retrain anyway) and part of a rules course, in which case it is probably easier to put them through a full one. Same as "off the street", and no different to what some TOCs have found, when they took on tamper drivers as "qualified." Plus they will still have to do the full PQA process, which is why most "qualified driver" ads, ask for 2+ years experience.

They should be a strong candidate for a trainee post, but qualified, a resounding "no".

 

[Dave1987]

I'd agree with those above, who have said it is a totally different role. A depot driver has no experience of driving a train "in anger" - fog, adverse rail conditions, etc. The GE are atypical, in that the role is in your line of promotion. AFAIK, everywhere else, it is simply a cheap(er) option, for covering depot work.

The depot driver will still need front end turns, train handling, traction (unless already signed, to the same standard, and if moving company, they will probably retrain anyway) and part of a rules course, in which case it is probably easier to put them through a full one. Same as "off the street", and no different to what some TOCs have found, when they took on tamper drivers as "qualified." Plus they will still have to do the full PQA process, which is why most "qualified driver" ads, ask for 2+ years experience.

They should be a strong candidate for a trainee post, but qualified, a resounding "no".

Well like I have said that is not has happened with the guy I know and it seems that FGW disagree with you as well.

On a side point freight driving is totally different to passenger driving as a freight driver doesn't have to know about passenger evacuation etc. similarly a passenger driver doesn't know about driving in possessions. So by your logic a passenger driver going to freight couldn't be considered as a qualified driver and might as well start from scratch on rules training......

 

[E&W Lucas]

Well like I have said that is not has happened with the guy I know and it seems that FGW disagree with you as well.

On a side point freight driving is totally different to passenger driving as a freight driver doesn't have to know about passenger evacuation etc. similarly a passenger driver doesn't know about driving in possessions. So by your logic a passenger driver going to freight couldn't be considered as a qualified driver and might as well start from scratch on rules training......

What has happened with him subsequently? Is he productive yet?

There is no comparison, between a qualified passenger driver going to freight. It is a well trodden path, and the companies know what to expect.

6 Months plus is typical for conversion training, esp, if there is plenty of route learning involved. What you don't need, is rostering with a trianer all the time.

From the responses above, you will note that the other drivers posting, do not regard DD's as fully qualified drivers, and the management that I know, wouldn't entertain them as such either. They have never done the job, so how can they be qualified?

 

[Pezza]

Well like I have said that is not has happened with the guy I know and it seems that FGW disagree with you as well.

Yeah interesting point about FGW, being a depot driver at GA we have covered most mainline rules, which included 'temp block working, pilotman working, single line working, assistance protection and only partly covers level crossings, speeds and failures in service' with the exception there of level crossings fully. The depot to mainline course here is 5 weeks classroom and then your 225 hours brake handling/route learning. As others has said even an experienced mainline driver will need some considerable hours route learning at a new TOC.

But the point about FGW, I'd applied for their training roles about mid way through last year and they have just got back to me saying I've passed initial filtering. So I replied explaining I'm now a qualified depot driver at GA and they replied saying to then apply for the qualified mainline roles they are currently advertising. I've gone back to them as I've was skeptical if that was accurate or just that someone in their HR has misread my email. So do you know then that FGW will consider Depot driver for their mainline roles?

 

[Dave1987]

What has happened with him subsequently? Is he productive yet?

There is no comparison, between a qualified passenger driver going to freight. It is a well trodden path, and the companies know what to expect.

6 Months plus is typical for conversion training, esp, if there is plenty of route learning involved. What you don't need, is rostering with a trianer all the time.

From the responses above, you will note that the other drivers posting, do not regard DD's as fully qualified drivers, and the management that I know, wouldn't entertain them as such either. They have never done the job, so how can they be qualified?

Yes he is productive. They put him through modules 4 & 5 and had him doing his 225 hrs very quickly. I think you don't appreciate DD are taught single line working, temporary block working etc. I never said a DD was a qualified mainline driver. But a DD is by far not in the same boat as a person off the street which is what you eluded to.

 

[TDK]

Sorry I disagree, like I said I know a depot driver on GA who applied for a mainline job at SWT and got it. You are suggesting that depot drivers are in the same boat as a person off the street which just isn't true.

Did you actually read my post properly Dave? here is a reminder below!

Because you are not a mainline qualified driver. You will need to go through the same process as all other non mainline drivers do, it is a different grade so therefore will be recognised as a different grade however you should have no trouble getting through the sift and if you have evidence of passing psychometric testing for the MDD hopefully you will not have to do these again but the company would need evidence of your pass rate and date.


Hope this helps.

I never mentioned "off the street applicants" however an MDD will have to apply for a trainee driver position and will not be able to apply for a qualified driver position unless consulting with the TOC first!

 

[Dave1987]

Pezza the guy I know who went from GA to SWT called their HR dept, explained that he was a qualified DD for GA but was interested in moving to SWT. They took him and put him through the rest of the mainline training he needed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Did you actually read my post properly Dave? here is a reminder below!

Because you are not a mainline qualified driver. You will need to go through the same process as all other non mainline drivers do, it is a different grade so therefore will be recognised as a different grade however you should have no trouble getting through the sift and if you have evidence of passing psychometric testing for the MDD hopefully you will not have to do these again but the company would need evidence of your pass rate and date.


Hope this helps.

I never mentioned "off the street applicants" however an MDD will have to apply for a trainee driver position and will not be able to apply for a qualified driver position unless consulting with the TOC first!

Ok right I'm with you now. And yes that's what the guy I know did he called SWT and asked them and they took him on. I am by no means suggesting a DD could apply for a qualified mainline position.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Yes he is productive. They put him through modules 4 & 5 and had him doing his 225 hrs very quickly. I think you don't appreciate DD are taught single line working, temporary block working etc. I never said a DD was a qualified mainline driver. But a DD is by far not in the same boat as a person off the street which is what you eluded to.

Will also depend where you are applying to. Some TOC's struggle to get qualified applicants, in which case an application would be worth a shot. Others have got a filing cabinet full of CVs from qualified drivers, in which case it most definitely wouldn't!

Your DD's may be taught most of the rule book (I believe others are nothing like), but they have never actually had to implement much of it. A fully qualifed driver, with say five years service, clean record, clean discipline and a few positive noises made on the railway grapevine, is a pretty safe bet. A depot driver, is still a partial unknown.

 

[Dave1987]

Will also depend where you are applying to. Some TOC's struggle to get qualified applicants, in which case an application would be worth a shot. Others have got a filing cabinet full of CVs from qualified drivers, in which case it most definitely wouldn't!

Your DD's may be taught most of the rule book (I believe others are nothing like), but they have never actually had to implement much of it. A fully qualifed driver, with say five years service, clean record, clean discipline and a few positive noises made on the railway grapevine, is a pretty safe bet. A depot driver, is still a partial unknown.

Yes I totally agree, but I have not met many drivers who have not got an incident or two on their file. In fact I know several who are on last chance saloons! I don't think the old adage of 3 SPAD's and your out applies any more its more like 3 incidents and you are out.

 

[TDK]

Yes I totally agree, but I have not met many drivers who have not got an incident or two on their file. In fact I know several who are on last chance saloons! I don't think the old adage of 3 SPAD's and your out applies any more its more like 3 incidents and you are out.

I would say 3 incidents or even one with some TOC's you are stuck where you are, many TOC's will not entertain a driver with form. As for 3 incidents and you are out, I have only known 3 drivers to be either reverted to doing a guards job or another job and being relieved of their driving duties because of incidents. Most drivers do have incidents but if they have been clean for a certain length of time the weighting is far less if trying for a different TOC.

 

[Beveridges]

I agree that MDD and Mainline are two completely seperate roles. One can be good at one and terrible at the other.
However there are enough skills an MDD would have (i.e. traction, and "some" of the rules) that means they should not have to start right from the beginning if they were to start a mainline course.
The handling side is completely different. MDD's handling skills are all based around working swingers, haulers, half-units and putting units back together again. Mainline handling skills are mainly about braking from high speeds.

Having said that I'd have to say an MDD should always consider mainline roles carefully before taking the move as the grass is certainly not always greener. Before considering the move go on as many mainline cab rides as you can, as an MDD this should not be hard if you can get on a "Depot Test Run" or get some "front ending" arranged through your DTM which should not be hard for an MDD. I can get front ending on "development days" often enough.
Also speak to ex-MDD's who are now mainline, speak to ex-mainline who are now MDD's, only they are qualified to compare both roles and say the pros and cons. Visit the depot your thinking of moving to and check out their links, diagrams, core routes, prospects for further route learning after signing core routes (if there is any, job will be very monotonous if theres not many routes), shifts, traction (it will be a nasty suprise if you unexpectedly take a job where you're on 142s all the time) and the messroom areas.
Also consider the fact that IF you do have to start training from the very beginning, thats going to be a rough year & a very long time in the classroom (17 weeks? it varies ) and probably only on about £18k for nearly a year.
Also consider the fact that you will be managed much, much more often. DTM's coming with you for long rideouts. Not just for a quick shunt and a prep.
Then you also need to consider the fact that if you have an incident, it will be very difficult to move anywhere else. If you don't like the depot you're at, you'll be stuck and unable to transfer or move TOC's.
It will certainly take a lot for me to ever decide to leave the relative comfort of MDD Driving.