Are northern rail allowed to do this to me? Please help

[PDF-Mal13]

I bought a physical ticket from my local station this morning from the ticket machine.

I selected "anytime day return" and applied my VALID 26-30 railcard. The machine offered me a discounted price in accordance to the railcard and I bought / printed the tickets.

I arrive at Deansgate station and they take me aside and issue me a travel incident report because they said my ticket had a railcard applied to it when I am not allowed to if it is a anytime ticket and below a certain amount. They said there is a chance I will be prosecuted.

I was shocked at this - I literally had NO idea that this was in the terms and conditions and HOW can they allow me to buy a anytime day return ticket with a railcard if I am not allowed to use it?

This will 100% ruin my career ambitions because of the field I work in. My life is over. They will 100% prosecute me because Another time I was given a fine for buying the wrong ticket (the ticket was to liverpool, the cost was the same but I selected the wrong timing. They gave me a fine as it was an advanced ticket).

Just awaiting the letter now. HOW IS THIS EVEN LEGAL? THIS IS LITERALLY CRIMINAL !!

I studied law - this violates consumer rights protection.

I am in tears

 

[SteveM70]

OK. There is a minimum fare restriction for railcards in the morning peak. This might be your issue

Please can you clarify:

- where did you buy your ticket, and at (roughly) what time

- where were you travelling from and to

- when you bought your ticket did you select a specific train, and if so was this the one you actually caught

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I studied law - this violates consumer rights protection.

As @Steve70 references, a minimum fare of £12 applies for all journeys made between 04:30am and 09:59am Monday to Friday (except weekend and on Public Holidays) before a 26-30 railcard discount is valid. This is at Clause 4.2 in the 26-30 railcard terms and conditions.

Railcard Terms & Conditions - 26-30 Railcard

www.26-30railcard.co.uk

Would, however, be interesting to know why a TVM would issue the discounted fare if at or before 09:59 a.m., and for a fare below the £12 threshold, if indeed it did, what warnings if any were displayed. Suspect a train service for later in the day, i.e. at or after 10:00 a.m., was selected, as the fares then showing would have been cheaper.

 

[furlong]

I think we need more details: Normally you would be asked to pay the difference in fare, in accordance with the Conditions of Travel:

9.5Where you:
9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling; or
...
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

If you've paid less than the minimum fare then your ticket is time restricted.

 

[PDF-Mal13]

OK. There is a minimum fare restriction for railcards in the morning peak. This might be your issue

Please can you clarify:

- where did you buy your ticket, and at (roughly) what time

- where were you travelling from and to

- when you bought your ticket did you select a specific train, and if so was this the one you actually caught

Thank you for helping me.

- I bought the ticket at heald green station before the morning 8:20 train to manchester.
- I was travelling from Heald Green to Manchester (central)
- I didn't select a specified train - on the ticket machine I selected the railcard which is 26-30, and then I selected "Anytime day return" from the options. It then dicounted the price from around 7 pounds to 5 pounds and then printed return.

I was even thinking this may be a problem with the ticket machines? Surely they shouldn't allow you to apply a railcard to a anytime day return if it's below a certain amount? How can they allow you to buy it then prosecute you for using it??

 

[Bletchleyite]

As @Steve70 references, a minimum fare of £12 applies for all journeys made between 04:30am and 09:59am Monday to Friday (except weekend and on Public Holidays) before a 26-30 railcard discount is valid. This is at Clause 4.2 in the 26-30 railcard terms and conditions.

Railcard Terms & Conditions - 26-30 Railcard

www.26-30railcard.co.uk

Would, however, be interesting to know why a TVM would issue the discounted fare if at or before 09:59 a.m., and for a fare below the £12 threshold, if indeed it did, what warnings if any were displayed. Suspect a train service for later in the day, i.e. at or after 10:00 a.m., was selected, as the fares then showing would have been cheaper.

Generally TVMs will let you buy the ticket for the minimum fare, but will warn you that the "undiscounted" ticket is cheaper. This is because there have been in the past offers only aimed at Railcard users (e.g. Virgin's unrestricted Off Peak availability) and sometimes you will want to pay the extra e.g. because it's cheaper with a child on a Family card than the full price.

 

[SeanG]

As has been previously stated, it appears that you have bought an anytime day return which is under the minimum fare threshold which applies before 10am.

With regard to 'are they allowed to do this', then the answer is yes, and as much as you do not want to hear this, you failed to read the terms and conditions which you perhaps should. Nevertheless, one reason why the TVM was able to issue this ticket is that you could use an anytime day return in the evening peak (ie after 10am but where an off peak ticket would not be valid). I agree however that perhaps this is rather unfair if the TVM is selling you such a ticket - perhaps a note should be displayed stating the minimum fare?

 

[furlong]

Yes, it would be a problem with the ticket machine if it failed to warn you about a time restriction on your ticket.

 

[PDF-Mal13]

As @Steve70 references, a minimum fare of £12 applies for all journeys made between 04:30am and 09:59am Monday to Friday (except weekend and on Public Holidays) before a 26-30 railcard discount is valid. This is at Clause 4.2 in the 26-30 railcard terms and conditions.

Railcard Terms & Conditions - 26-30 Railcard

www.26-30railcard.co.uk

Would, however, be interesting to know why a TVM would issue the discounted fare if at or before 09:59 a.m., and for a fare below the £12 threshold, if indeed it did, what warnings if any were displayed. Suspect a train service for later in the day, i.e. at or after 10:00 a.m., was selected, as the fares then showing would have been cheaper.

Hi Thank you for helping.

See my next response to further details. There were NO warnings. I checked on an app and they don't even let you apply railcards to the anytime day return!

 

[furlong]

Are you able to return to that station at a similar time and record a video repeating what you did to get the ticket to show what warnings it did or did not give you? (You can stop before payment.)

 

[PDF-Mal13]

As has been previously stated, it appears that you have bought an anytime day return which is under the minimum fare threshold which applies before 10am.

With regard to 'are they allowed to do this', then the answer is yes, and as much as you do not want to hear this, you failed to read the terms and conditions which you perhaps should. Nevertheless, one reason why the TVM was able to issue this ticket is that you could use an anytime day return in the evening peak (ie after 10am but where an off peak ticket would not be valid). I agree however that perhaps this is rather unfair if the TVM is selling you such a ticket - perhaps a note should be displayed stating the minimum fare?

I studied law and for situations such as this where a purchase is made, it has to be made absolutely clear or they can't allow consumers to buy the ticket. you can't expect the consumer to read over all of the terms and conditions

 

[Bletchleyite]

I studied law and for situations such as this where a purchase is made, it has to be made absolutely clear or they can't allow consumers to buy the ticket. you can't expect the consumer to read over all of the terms and conditions

You don't need to read all of them but you do need to be aware of the fairly fundamental one that if the fare isn't more than £12 you can't (usefully) use the Railcard before 10am. That's not exactly hard to remember.

However the TVM really should know about this, because if the fare is between £12 and £17.90, it needs to discount to £12 rather than below that. Most of them in my experience are - it's a serious oversight if Northern's aren't.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

That's not exactly hard to remember.

It's also on the home page of the trainline website (and in the 'learn more' section on the app when purchasing) and the railcard website - the only places where you can purchase the railcard.

Additionally, if it's anything like the 16-25 railcard, there is a prominent info button on the NR Railcard app which when clicked gives very clear info about the time restriction. It's not hidden.

 

[ainsworth74]

Great idea ! I will do that when I return home!

It needs to be done at the same time (roughly) that you did it this morning. The minimum fare rule which you've fallen foul of doesn't apply after 10am, so to show that the machine was incorrectly issuing a discounted fare you need to use it before 10am. If you used the machine at say 5pm this afternoon the machine definitely wouldn't give any warnings as the fare is indisputably valid!

 

[PDF-Mal13]

You don't need to read all of them but you do need to be aware of the fairly fundamental one that if the fare isn't more than £12 you can't (usefully) use the Railcard before 10am. That's not exactly hard to remember.

However the TVM really should know about this, because if the fare is between £12 and £17.90, it needs to discount to £12 rather than below that. Most of them in my experience are - it's a serious oversight if Northern's aren't.

How can they expect people to know that?? What if someone has just started travelling in trains, someone is old or someone new to the country? This should not only be made clear cut but they should not allow you to apply railcards in this situation and then proceed to prosecute you. I am gathering all of the evidence and will contact journalists / the local media if I have to in order to warn the public about the negligence of northern !!

 

[SteveM70]

However the TVM really should know about this, because if the fare is between £12 and £17.90, it needs to discount to £12 rather than below that. Most of them in my experience are - it's a serious oversight if Northern's aren't.

Doesn't apply like that in this case - in this case it'd have to increase the fare to £12 wouldn't it?

 

[MrJeeves]

Doesn't apply like that in this case - in this case it'd have to increase the fare to £12 wouldn't it?

Discount from the standard price to £12, or increase from the fully discounted price up to £12, or stay at the normal price if below £12.

Tomato, tomato... That doesn't really work with text!

 

[Bletchleyite]

How can they expect people to know that??

Did you not read what you were purchasing? If you didn't know what discounts it offered, how could you know it was suitable for your needs at all? You'd think a legal professional of all people would do that.

We're here to help you, but you do have to accept some of the blame for what has happened.

 

[furlong]

To answer your other points, you're wrong to think 100% they'll prosecute. Putting aside the arguments about whether that would have any chance of success (i.e. ticket sold implies contract - ticket machine problem - abuse of process; conditions of travel cover situation and only difference payable), in our experience Northern usually offers out of court settlements to people who cooperate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Doesn't apply like that in this case - in this case it'd have to increase the fare to £12 wouldn't it?

That's what the Scheidt & Bachmann machines do. They pop up saying something like "The railcard fare would be £12, however the normal fare is £7, do you still want to apply the Railcard, Yes/No".

 

[MrJeeves]

That's what the Scheidt & Bachmann machines do. They pop up saying something like "The railcard fare would be £12, however the normal fare is £7, do you still want to apply the Railcard, Yes/No".

I've never seen a GTR S&B TVM show this...

 

[ThameslinkUser]

What if someone has just started travelling in trains, someone is old or someone new to the country?

If someone is savvy enough to know about and use a railcard, they are almost certainly savvy enough to understand its most fundamental condition aside from having it on your person when travelling.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've never seen a GTR S&B TVM show this...

The WMT ones absolutely do, at least for the Network Railcard and probably others too.

 

[SteveM70]

Thank you for helping me.

- I bought the ticket at heald green station before the morning 8:20 train to manchester.
- I was travelling from Heald Green to Manchester (central)
- I didn't select a specified train - on the ticket machine I selected the railcard which is 26-30, and then I selected "Anytime day return" from the options. It then dicounted the price from around 7 pounds to 5 pounds and then printed return.

I was even thinking this may be a problem with the ticket machines? Surely they shouldn't allow you to apply a railcard to a anytime day return if it's below a certain amount? How can they allow you to buy it then prosecute you for using it??

Paging @northernman - do you know what the expected behaviour of a Northern TVM is in these circumstances?

 

[ainsworth74]

Can we leave the discussion of how other TVMs implement the minimum fare rule here please? It isn't immediately relevant to the OP and is starting to confuse matters. Thanks

 

[PDF-Mal13]

I just went to Oxford station and took a video and pictures of the entire process !! The video is too large to attach here so I attached photos. They have ZERO information about this and they let you buy the advanced ticket without warning. It’s criminal !!

 

[MrJeeves]

I just went to Oxford station and took a video and pictures of the entire process !! The video is too large to attach here so I attached photos. They have ZERO information about this and they let you buy the advanced ticket without warning. It’s criminal !!

As was explained before, it's after 10am now so it wouldn't tell you.

You would have to check again before 10am to see if anything appears.

Presumably the "next valid outbound service" that is shown in your picture should have said a train after 10am when you bought your ticket.

 

[PDF-Mal13]

As was explained before, it's after 10am now so it wouldn't tell you.

You would have to check again before 10am to see if anything appears.

Okay I will tomorrow. It’s exactly the same in the morning. Also it’s the same ticket - anytime day return which applies on peak timings so what difference does it make what time I buy it

 

[MrJeeves]

Okay I will tomorrow. It’s exactly the same in the morning. Also it’s the same ticket - anytime day return which applies on peak timings so what difference does it make what time I buy it

Because the sub-£12 discounted ticket is valid from 10am, but not before 10am.

 

[Gloster]

I just went to Oxford station and took a video and pictures of the entire process !! The video is too large to attach here so I attached photos. They have ZERO information about this and they let you buy the advanced ticket without warning. It’s criminal !!

Oxford or Oxford Road station.

You really need to go the same station that you bought the original ticket from at exactly the same time of day and on a weekday, and carry out the same actions.