Are there too many ‘preserved’ diesels and how could they be thinned out?

[randyrippley]

Split from this thread:https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...us-and-updates-originally-about-d1048.226037/

So out of seven "preserved" Westerns there's just one working?
Surely having six others competing for cash & resources is too many?
Better to concentrate on getting just one more working, reducing the rest to spares donors. Trying to get them all working, and keeping them working despite the lack of spares is surely impossible.

 

[Cowley]

So out of seven "preserved" there's just one working?
Surely having six others competing for cash & resources is too many?
Better to concentrate on getting just one more working, reducing the rest to spares donors. Trying to get them all working, and keeping them working despite the lack of spares is surely impossible.

You do seem to be on a bit of a roll with scrapping preserved diesels at the moment.

 

[Richard Scott]

So out of seven "preserved" there's just one working?
Surely having six others competing for cash & resources is too many?
Better to concentrate on getting just one more working, reducing the rest to spares donors. Trying to get them all working, and keeping them working despite the lack of spares is surely impossible.

The issue is you can't tell people how to spend their money or dictate to volunteers where they work. Owners of said locos won't be keen either. I've spent many years working on a loco (of a different class) and wouldn't want to see my hard work end up as a spares donor.
This idea may be theoretically sound but won't translate into practice.

 

[randyrippley]

You do seem to be on a bit of a roll with scrapping preserved diesels at the moment.

They're only "preserved" once they're complete and serviceable (or at a push in static display condition)
Until then they're just a collection of potential scrap - or valuable spares
You've got a group of machines that were retired 40 years ago, many stored outside not turned a wheel in decades. Trying to save them all isn't feasible

The issue is you can't tell people how to spend their money or dictate to volunteers where they work. Owners of said locos won't be keen either. I've spent many years working on a loco (of a different class) and wouldn't want to see my hard work end up as a spares donor.
This idea may be theoretically sound but won't translate into practice.

But wouldn't you prefer to see that work used on a working machine as parts, rather than have it sit for another five or ten years on an incomplete machine which will never get finished anyway?

 

[Cowley]

@randyrippley - Things are ‘preserved’ even when they’re in bits.
Locomotives (or any other mechanical machine) don’t cease to be preserved when they’re taken apart to receive attention. It’s part of what needs to happen when preserved machines are to be kept running for people to enjoy.

edit - I would say that the term ‘preserved’ definitely doesn’t fit what’s happening with some of the locos that are kicking around various lines though.

 

[randyrippley]

@randyrippley - Things are ‘preserved’ even when they’re in bits.
Locomotives (or any other mechanical machine) don’t cease to be preserved when they’re taken apart to receive attention. It’s part of what needs to happen when preserved machines are to be kept running for people to enjoy.

edit - I would say that the term ‘preserved’ definitely doesn’t fit what’s happening with some of the locos that are kicking around various lines though.

Except these aren't running, aren't being repaired in a reasonable time, and can't even be used as static exhibits

 

[Cowley]

Except these aren't running, aren't being repaired in a reasonable time, and can't even be used as static exhibits

Have you clicked on the links to see the work that’s being done on at least four of them? I’d say that probably at least three of the ones being worked on will be back in action over the next year.
It’s up to the owners and volunteers what they want to spend their time and money on.

 

[reddragon]

It is the basic reality of preservation.

You first acquire something in running order with plenty of spares, run it until it breaks be it bus, car, train or plane.

Then some drag on as wrecks whilst others are rebuilt into tip top condition.

Then a few go static, donating parts to keep the best running.

Basket cases get scrapped for parts.

Finally few or none can be kept running without huge investment. Only crowd pulling planes or trains achieve this.

 

[Richard Scott]

But wouldn't you prefer to see that work used on a working machine as parts, rather than have it sit for another five or ten years on an incomplete machine which will never get finished anyway?

If it's your own loco you working on then of course you want to see it run but have to accept this doesn't happen overnight. I spent best part of 15 years on a loco to get it running. It did get finished in the end.

 

[theblackwatch]

So out of seven "preserved" Westerns there's just one working?
Surely having six others competing for cash & resources is too many?
Better to concentrate on getting just one more working, reducing the rest to spares donors. Trying to get them all working, and keeping them working despite the lack of spares is surely impossible.

The A4's are worse. None out of 6 operational. I'm intrigued as to how many of them you think should be scrapped? Or does this view only apply to diesels?

 

[Cowley]

It is the basic reality of preservation.

You first acquire something in running order with plenty of spares, run it until it breaks be it bus, car, train or plane.

Then some drag on as wrecks whilst others are rebuilt into tip top condition.

Then a few go static, donating parts to keep the best running.

Basket cases get scrapped for parts.

Finally few or none can be kept running without huge investment. Only crowd pulling planes or trains achieve this.

There are certain classes that are ridiculously over represented and at some point in the not too far future a few no hopers will start to fall by the wayside and I think eventually there’ll be a lot of casualties as interest wains.
I can’t see it being any of the Hydraulics, class 40s or Deltics though. They’ve just got too big a following and if one came on the market I think someone or a group would buy it.

55016 has possibly been the closest to being lost out of those (depending on what you wanted to believe a few years ago)…

 

[ic31420]

Depending on how you define preserved

It may well be some of the non runners are better preserved than the runners.

The ELRs example for instance is some way through a significant overhaul and rewire that'll see it in great condition once finished. Meanwhile it's a non runner but very much preserved.

You might argue DELTIC or Mallard are "more preserved" than their operational counterparts.

Speaking of Deltics I suppose that class of diesel pres pioneers is sort of showing us that all the remaining examples are essentially stores of spares for the other remaining locos.

Didn't A1A also buy up and scrap another formerly operational 31 (31123 rings a bell) for spares too?

I think over the next 30 years we will see a contraction of the pres fleet.

 

[43096]

You do seem to be on a bit of a roll with scrapping preserved diesels at the moment.

I think there’s a ‘t’ missing off your 11th word.

 

[D6968]

So out of seven "preserved" Westerns there's just one working?
Surely having six others competing for cash & resources is too many?
Better to concentrate on getting just one more working, reducing the rest to spares donors. Trying to get them all working, and keeping them working despite the lack of spares is surely impossible.

Good luck on having that conversation with the likes of the DTG, WLA, (who have spent money on a decent facility to look after their respective machines) Bury Hydraulic Group and the DEPG.
As others have said would you say the same about something like 43106 which spent the best part of 20 years parked up at the SVR in the open doing nothing?

 

[randyrippley]

A steam loco like 43106 is different in that parts and repairs can be provided by an experienced engineering workshop. The spares can be made,
But if a conrod goes on a diesel, who is going to machine a new crankcase?

 

[37114]

Didn't A1A also buy up and scrap another formerly operational 31 (31123 rings a bell) for spares too?

I think over the next 30 years we will see a contraction of the pres fleet.

31123 had been a runner (I travelled behind it on the G&WSR a number of times) however it had been out of use a while and needed work. Like a number of other diesels a shiny coat of paint didn't fix the fact it was in need of overhaul when withdrawn which it never got.

I agree with you last statement as well. The fact is many diesels were worn out when withdrawn, and you have 2 choices; repaint it and run it until something breaks or take it apart and sort out the worn out bits. 40118 is a case in point, the guys have gone through it over 30 or so years to sort out every part but when done it should be good for 10 - 15 years. There are many other locos where it has been battered into life with a few replacement parts, repainted then left in a siding waiting for an overhaul which can't be funded/resourced and the inevitable role of parts donor will follow...

 

[Spamcan81]

The A4's are worse. None out of 6 operational. I'm intrigued as to how many of them you think should be scrapped? Or does this view only apply to diesels?

One is about to return to working order though, four are properly cared for in museums and the sixth may end up in a museum if the owner can get permission to build it.

 

[randyrippley]

One is about to return to working order though, four are properly cared for in museums and the sixth may end up in a museum if the owner can get permission to build it.

I''d argue that having them all sitting as decorations in museums isn't proper care.
Better just one working than six not

 

[43096]

A steam loco like 43106 is different in that parts and repairs can be provided by an experienced engineering workshop. The spares can be made,
But if a conrod goes on a diesel, who is going to machine a new crankcase?

A specialist engineering workshop.

Do tell us, what’s your problem with diesels?

 

[D6968]

I''d argue that having them all sitting as decorations in museums isn't proper care.
Better just one working than six not

So you mean may as well cut them up? Have you any idea what preservation or conservation means?
The word Troll is starting to come to mind.

 

[Spartacus]

A steam loco like 43106 is different in that parts and repairs can be provided by an experienced engineering workshop. The spares can be made,
But if a conrod goes on a diesel, who is going to machine a new crankcase?

There's a lot of things that are manufactured in preservation now that would have been practically unthinkable 20 or 30 years ago. As demand gets more frequent it's likely someone will step into the breech to fill the gap.

 

[pdeaves]

Suppose there's six locomotives, owned by six different individuals. How do you decide which five 'must' forfeit their own private property because one person's is better than theirs?

I know it's not a perfect analogy, but... is your house the best in the street? If not, should it be demolished so your neighbour can spend more on making theirs better?

 

[D6968]

Adams 488 hasn’t worked in 31 years shall we just cut that up?

 

[hexagon789]

I''d argue that having them all sitting as decorations in museums isn't proper care.
Better just one working than six not

So the NRM should just bin most of its collection then? Alrighty...

 

[tbtc]

The problem with having just one (of a class preserved) is which one to preserve?

There was a thread a couple of years ago, when the 91s were on the verge of being scraped where about thirty of the thirty one were being suggested for the "National Collection" (since they all ticked various boxes - the first in service, the last in service, the first one to achieve various things...), which presumably means that the thirty first one should also have been saved for the nation because the unique thing about it was that it wasn't the first or last one to do anything

Personally, whilst I'm fairly cynical about preserving the track bed of every quaint little branch line, I don't mind if people want to preserve lots of old locomotives - even if they never get any main line use

One group preserving an old loco in Norfolk isn't really affected by whether or not there's also one in Merseyside or Somerset being preserved - you're going to have a local team of volunteers, nobody is going to travel hundreds of miles each weekend to help look after a loco on the other side of the country

That probably means we'll end up with several of some classes in preservations and virtually none of others (there are more of some tiny classes like Deltics in preservation than some larger classes but that's fine, it's up to people what they want to preserve and some classes resonate more than others)

There's also the point that some people aren't preserving something to haul trains on main lines, maybe they are preserving it just to keep a piece of their childhood together, even if it's more of a "static" display, not everything has to be preserved for practical reasons - if you can find a siding somewhere for your slice of 1960s nostalgia to sit there and rust for a few decades then good luck to you, it's not hurting anyone (and it's not as if scrapping it would miraculously keep one other member of the class alive, given that it may not have the right donor parts etc)

(I hate threads like this that make me take the "soppy" side, rather than being hard headed!)

 

[reddragon]

Nah, scrap em all and go new build

 

[Spartacus]

Nah, scrap em all and go new build

View attachment 107867

Given the OP mentioned Westerns, and given the number of 47s languishing across the country, I can't help thinking Falcon Mk2 In fairness it's about the only half decent reason to lose a Western, though it may be there's more than enough MD655s for them all.

 

[Cowley]

Given the OP mentioned Westerns, and given the number of 47s languishing across the country, I can't help thinking Falcon Mk2

Get your hands off my Westerns.
I’ve got a valve from one of D1062s Maybachs on my shelf and I’m not even parting with that!

 

[Richard Scott]

Given the OP mentioned Westerns, and given the number of 47s languishing across the country, I can't help thinking Falcon Mk2 In fairness it's about the only half decent reason to lose a Western, though it may be there's more than enough MD655s for them all.

Not sure there are that many MD655s around at all. Pretty rare in Germany too, I believe.

 

[nanstallon]

Who has any right to say which ones are to be scrapped? In my book, it is up to the owners to decide what happens to their locos 9whether steam, diesel or electric).