Are tickets to "London Thameslink" valid on Southern trains?

[ljx]

This might sound like a silly question, but there's (some) method in the madness, and I did try searching around first.

My wife recently started commuting from Haywards Heath to London Bridge, using the Southern services (no Underground). On the National Rail season ticket calculator there are a number of fares. Prices below are based on next year's prices (14th January 2019 selected).

The cheapest is obviously not suitable: "Haywards Heath (HHE) to London Terminals (Valid only for travel on Thameslink services.)" £378.30

The one we've been buying is "Haywards Heath (HHE) to London Terminals (Travel is allowed via any permitted route.)" £435.90.

However, this one also caught my eye because when renewing on the Southern website, it remained even after de-selecting the "Thameslink only" filter, and appears when ticking the "Not underground" filter: "Haywards Heath (HHE) to London Thameslink (Not valid for travel on London Underground services.)" £378.30

What does "London Thameslink" mean here? It would be great if it means "London Thameslink stations" (such as London Bridge), but I suspect it means "London travelling on Thameslink trains" (albeit which London stations are unspecified).

It it does mean "London Thameslink stations" we can save £57.60/month, but I guess that's unlikely. If it doesn't mean that, what purpose does this ticket serve given that there's already a Thameslink-only ticket for the same price?

Sorry for the long question. If anyone can help with deciphering these fares I'd be very grateful!

 

[OwlMan]

From Haywards heath london Thameslink consists of St Pancras International, Farringdon, City Thameslink, London Blackfriars, London Bridge, and Elephant & Castle stations.
Read the section in National Rail Enquiries on London Travel for more information ( http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46587.aspx)

 

[yorkie]

What does "London Thameslink" mean here? It would be great if it means "London Thameslink stations" (such as London Bridge), but I suspect it means "London travelling on Thameslink trains" (albeit which London stations are unspecified).

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46587.aspx

London Thameslink
Tickets with an origin/destination of 'London Thameslink' are valid to/from the following stations

• St Pancras International
• Farringdon
• City Thameslink
• London Blackfriars
• London Bridge
• Elephant & Castle
• Kentish Town
• London Euston (only applicable for tickets to/from Bedford, for travel via Bletchley)

....

There is no operator restriction on a ticket with that destination, so it's not restricted to trains operated by the company of that name, but see https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...t-validity-across-brands.120117/#post-2283026 to get an understanding of what that would mean, as the company in question operates multiple brand names, but let's not discuss that here !

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

This might sound like a silly question, but there's (some) method in the madness, and I did try searching around first.

My wife recently started commuting from Haywards Heath to London Bridge, using the Southern services (no Underground). On the National Rail season ticket calculator there are a number of fares. Prices below are based on next year's prices (14th January 2019 selected).

The cheapest is obviously not suitable: "Haywards Heath (HHE) to London Terminals (Valid only for travel on Thameslink services.)" £378.30

The one we've been buying is "Haywards Heath (HHE) to London Terminals (Travel is allowed via any permitted route.)" £435.90.

However, this one also caught my eye because when renewing on the Southern website, it remained even after de-selecting the "Thameslink only" filter, and appears when ticking the "Not underground" filter: "Haywards Heath (HHE) to London Thameslink (Not valid for travel on London Underground services.)" £378.30

What does "London Thameslink" mean here? It would be great if it means "London Thameslink stations" (such as London Bridge), but I suspect it means "London travelling on Thameslink trains" (albeit which London stations are unspecified).

It it does mean "London Thameslink stations" we can save £57.60/month, but I guess that's unlikely. If it doesn't mean that, what purpose does this ticket serve given that there's already a Thameslink-only ticket for the same price?

Sorry for the long question. If anyone can help with deciphering these fares I'd be very grateful!

A ticket's destination doesn't, in most cases, restrict the trains that the ticket is valid on. Only the route restriction (or time restriction code) can do that.

A ticket to London Thameslink is, subject to any route or other restrictions, valid for travel to all stations that OwlMan has listed above, on all train companies' services on all permitted routes - the only restriction is, as per the route, that you cannot travel on London Underground services.

The restriction "Thameslink only" can only refer to Govia Thameslink Railway services, as the relevant Condition of Travel specifies that train company restrictions may only be applied by company, and not by brand. Southern, Thameslink, Gatwick Express etc. are all operated by GTR, and thus "Thameslink only" would, in effect, only restrict you from taking Southeastern or GWR services (or London Underground services) on a permitted route (e.g. from Gatwick Airport to Redhill on GWR!).

Of course not all staff are aware of the way the rules for restrictions work, and so some may cause you some hassle - though, as you are entering and exiting at stations where the barriers do not discriminate by brand (as for example happens at London Victoria), you are only going to experience issues onboard the train. However, for the amount you save, I think it may be worth considering it. Of note, GTR have so far refunded all cases that have been raised here and escalated - so really, they admit they are in the wrong.

 

[ljx]

Wow, thanks for such fast replies!

Regarding the distinction between brands as Southern and Thameslink brands are both operated by GTR, for now I would prefer to play it safe and avoid any arguments, i.e. not suggest that my wife gets a "Thameslink only" ticket and travel on the Southern trains.

However, from both your replies about it seems we have been overpaying (only for a couple of months so not really bothered). To confirm, are you advising that the ticket "Haywards Heath to London Thameslink" is definitely ok on Southern trains to London Bridge? If so, I think we should try that for the last weekly ticket before Christmas (being purchased this weekend).

My worry if getting it wrong is that my wife would get stuck at the barriers, get fined by a ticket inspector on the trains, or have no trouble for several months and then be asked to pay back for having the wrong ticket. She has not been living in the UK for very long and might struggle to deal with such hassles.

 

[yorkie]

Haywards Heath to London Thameslink isn't a to let that Govia Thameslink staff on the company's Southern branded trains are going to argue about.

A ticket routed Thameslink Only could result in Govia Thameslink staff claiming the ticket is t valid on the company's Southern branded trains.

If you do encounter any such interactions, log the evidence, as at some point it may prove particularly useful. In fact evidence of overpaying to avoid arguments is also good. While Govia Thameslink are getting away with a lot of things at the moment, that may not last forever.

 

[ljx]

The restriction "Thameslink only" can only refer to Govia Thameslink Railway services, as the relevant Condition of Travel specifies that train company restrictions may only be applied by company, and not by brand. Southern, Thameslink, Gatwick Express etc. are all operated by GTR, and thus "Thameslink only" would, in effect, only restrict you from taking Southeastern or GWR services (or London Underground services) on a permitted route (e.g. from Gatwick Airport to Redhill on GWR!).

That's very interesting to know. My query was on behalf of my wife travelling to London Bridge, but (please forgive me or tell me if I shouldn't split the topic) I take the Gatwick Express to Victoria and walk to (nearly) South Kensington. Next year it will be £401.70 for a standard monthly to Victoria (any permitted, but only that station). This is cheaper than any "Thameslink only fare", however for only slightly more - £404.80 - I could get "Haywards Heath (HHE) to London Travelcard Zones 1-6 (Valid only for travel on Thameslink services.)". Even if I still walk from Victoria most days, a few quid for having unlimited Underground would come in handy for ad hoc journeys.

Would such a ticket get me through the barriers at Victoria platforms 13/14 (taxi rank usually) and not raise eyebrows when checked on the train (I'll probably upgrade to first class, so can expect regular checks)? I'm willing to put up with more hassle for myself than I'll bring upon my wife, but I wouldn't want to be stopped at the ticket gates daily.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

That's very interesting to know. My query was on behalf of my wife travelling to London Bridge, but (please forgive me or tell me if I shouldn't split the topic) I take the Gatwick Express to Victoria and walk to (nearly) South Kensington. Next year it will be £401.70 for a standard monthly to Victoria (any permitted, but only that station). This is cheaper than any "Thameslink only fare", however for only slightly more - £404.80 - I could get "Haywards Heath (HHE) to London Travelcard Zones 1-6 (Valid only for travel on Thameslink services.)". Even if I still walk from Victoria most days, a few quid for having unlimited Underground would come in handy for ad hoc journeys.

Would such a ticket get me through the barriers at Victoria platforms 13/14 (taxi rank usually) and not raise eyebrows when checked on the train (I'll probably upgrade to first class, so can expect regular checks)? I'm willing to put up with more hassle for myself than I'll bring upon my wife, but I wouldn't want to be stopped at the ticket gates daily.

I don't know how the Platform 13/14 barriers are programmed, but it is quite possible that they will not accept such a ticket. That is, of course, not an authoritative judgment on the actual validity of your ticket!

I don't know how often inspections occur on peak services, but you would hope that members of staff actually understand the rules. Of course, this cannot be guaranteed. So there is a possibility of daily hassle. Of course, if this happens then you might wish to seek legal counsel regarding the possibility of an injunction requiring them to accept the ticket.

 

[RJ]

To keeps things simple and relevant.

London Thameslink is a group of stations as shown here on National Rail Enquires.

There is no restriction on the train operators you can take - so it's perfectly valid on Southern services to London Bridge and you should not get, or expect any hassle from staff.

 

[PeterC]

We seem to have two separate discussions going on here, probably because the thread title does not match the question asked in the post.

 

[yorkie]

That's very interesting to know. My query was on behalf of my wife travelling to London Bridge, but (please forgive me or tell me if I shouldn't split the topic) I take the Gatwick Express to Victoria and walk to (nearly) South Kensington. Next year it will be £401.70 for a standard monthly to Victoria (any permitted, but only that station). This is cheaper than any "Thameslink only fare", however for only slightly more - £404.80 - I could get "Haywards Heath (HHE) to London Travelcard Zones 1-6 (Valid only for travel on Thameslink services.)". Even if I still walk from Victoria most days, a few quid for having unlimited Underground would come in handy for ad hoc journeys.

Would such a ticket get me through the barriers at Victoria platforms 13/14 (taxi rank usually) and not raise eyebrows when checked on the train (I'll probably upgrade to first class, so can expect regular checks)? I'm willing to put up with more hassle for myself than I'll bring upon my wife, but I wouldn't want to be stopped at the ticket gates daily.

The view of Govia Thameslink staff at London Victoria platforms 13/14 is that tickets marked Thameslink Only are not valid on trains operated by the company of that name which are branded Gatwick Express or Southern. This is likely to lead to requests by them for you to pay additional excess or supplement fares, including potentially Penalty Fares. While such charges are not lawful, you would spend many hours dealing with the fallout, and the value of your time spent fighting Govia Thameslink would not be easily recouped.

Therefore the best option would seem to be to pay the higher fare than is necessary. Keep all tickets, receipts and correspondence as one day it may come in useful as maybe one day people who have been overpaying might be able to claim the difference back.

There isn't anything further to discuss on this topic than what has been discussed before; there is plenty of reading material available...

https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&q="thameslink+only"+site:railforums.co.uk

 

[maniacmartin]

I would advise that you do not get the "Thameslink only" ticket and try to travel on Southern or Gatwick Express branded trains. It'll end up being a load of stress and hassle.

"London Thameslink" is a totally seperate concept. It means the group of stations quoted above, namely St Pancras International, Farringdon, City Thameslink, London Blackfriars, London Bridge, and Elephant & Castle stations. You can take any brand of National Rail train on any permitted route to get there, but cannot travel on London Underground.