• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Asbestos claims following exposure while restoring heritage stock

Camberman

Member
Joined
12 Aug 2020
Messages
82
Location
Camberley
Just read this on the Times website:

"‘Restoring the Orient Express gave me incurable cancer’
An electrician who worked on the famous train is in line for a £500,000 payout after being exposed to poisonous asbestos dust in the 1980s"

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/law/art...nt-express-gave-me-incurable-cancer-09bq868j9

Apart from the huge impact on all individuals who have already contracted asbestos related conditions, for whom I obviously have massive sympathy, how many other people may have been exposed and may in time be adversely affected health wise?

In the heritage sector, what impact will asbestos related claims have on:
  1. Cost of future specialist asbestos removal?
  2. Future insurance premiums for the heritage sector?
I'm thinking the impact on both could be very significant.

Your thoughts?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
31,044
Location
Fenny Stratford
This is not just a risk for railways.

how many other people may have been exposed and may in time be adversely affected health wise?
Potentially millions - anyone who worked in construction, manufacturing, heavy industry, transport etc etc. Asbestos was used in everything everywhere for about 50 years. It is in my house. It might well be in yours.

A relative of mine used to work in the ship yards. He died of mesothelioma that came from, he reckoned, asbestos lagging on pipes and boilers. It was not a nice way to go.
 

Camberman

Member
Joined
12 Aug 2020
Messages
82
Location
Camberley
@DarloRich - agreed - I worked as a surveyor in the 1970's and 1980's and inspected numerous buildings undergoing refurbishment, including Victorian houses being rebuilt as flats and where asbestos boarding was used for fire protection between flats. As I recall, there was sometimes dust in the air....
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
31,044
Location
Fenny Stratford
@DarloRich - agreed - I worked as a surveyor in the 1970's and 1980's and inspected numerous buildings undergoing refurbishment, including Victorian houses being rebuilt as flats and where asbestos boarding was used for fire protection between flats. As I recall, there was sometimes dust in the air....
it was just a thing wasn't it - The heavy industry cases have just about gone now for obvious reasons but it is the "trades" ones now that are coming through now.
 

gswindale

Member
Joined
1 Jun 2010
Messages
907
Indeed it is still a risk for many.

Our house was built mid 60s and late 2023, our next door neighbours had a relatively serious fire in the upstairs/roof of the house. I was somewhat surprised one morning to open our curtains and find a couple of guys wandering around in full hazmat suits. Fortunately for us (I think), our house was fully renovated/extended in the mid 90s and I believe that any asbestos was removed at that time.
 

Sun Chariot

Established Member
Joined
16 Mar 2009
Messages
3,360
Location
2 miles and 50 years away from the Longmoor Milita
We bought our current home 9 years ago, aa a "do-er up-per" (thankfully all now done!) and our builder's asbestos-removal certification (and hazmat clothing) was much needed, when he removed and disposed of our old garage's roof before he demolished the garage.
 

bleeder4

Member
Joined
19 Jan 2019
Messages
447
Location
Worcester
Things like this will always be an issue, as our understanding of medical science improves with each generation. Although we don't use asbestos anymore, there could well be a construction material we do use which, decades from now, is discovered to cause serious health issues in later life. And so the cycle of court cases and compensation payouts will continue ad infinitum.
 

cool110

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2014
Messages
648
Location
Preston
there could well be a construction material we do use which, decades from now, is discovered to cause serious health issues in later life
We already know that silica dust is the next most dangerous thing after asbestos, but is unavoidable due to being in most types of rocks and clay, and therefore in bricks, tiles, concrete, etc.
 

JKF

Member
Joined
29 May 2019
Messages
964
Incubation period for the disease is about forty years, so it’s a long time before the symptoms appear. I suspect given the age profile of most heritage railway volunteers that other causes might get there first. Not that that’s any comfort to younger volunteers.
 

Magdalia

Established Member
Joined
1 Jan 2022
Messages
4,730
Location
The Fens
how many other people may have been exposed and may in time be adversely affected health wise?

In the heritage sector, what impact will asbestos related claims have on:
  1. Cost of future specialist asbestos removal?
  2. Future insurance premiums for the heritage sector?
I'm thinking the impact on both could be very significant.
British Railways were aware of asbestos as a health issue from the early 1970s, particularly with regard to first generation DMUs. At that time railway preservation was still in its infancy. BR took remedial action for first generation DMU classes with a long expected life, others nearly all went for scrap. That's why various first generation DMU classes have no examples in preservation.

I don't know the details of this particular case, but I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it is a widespread issue for railway preservation. In most cases I'd expect BR to have done the remedial work before vehicles passed into preservation.
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,922
I don't know the details of this particular case, but I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it is a widespread issue for railway preservation. In most cases I'd expect BR to have done the remedial work before vehicles passed into preservation.
BR was diligent, and the vehicles which had gone for preservation before the sale of asbestos-containing vehicles was prohibited by law were subject to a thorough strip and inspection before they were allowed back on to the network. I doubt that any significantly-contaminated stock went into preservation latterly, and maybe never apart from steam locos with special conditions on the sale.

Regarding these passenger vehicles (if they are the Met Cam pullmans) I know for a fact that

a) Carnforth set up a dedicated asbestos-stripping cell
b) the vehicles were taken apart internally, moved into the cell one at a time and the sprayed internal lagging was very thoroughly removed back to a bare body shell.
c) when a coach was fully cleaned staff from BR Scientific Services made a detailed visual examination of the interior, scrutinising all crevices where asbestos could have penetrated, and then did a disturbed air test - in which all cleaned surfaces were battered while air samples were being collected. I know because I did them. (This is the same test applied to staffed or public areas of stations or any other premisses which needed to be stripped.) BR testing was feared because it was never paid for by the stripping contractors, only by the clients.

Only after a visual "pass" and then when no asbestos had been found in the air samples would approval be given for the coach to be re-sealed on the inside, rebuilt and allowed out for use on BR.

I don't understand how the electrician acquired the problem, but the trouble is that our generation got exposures all over the place early in our life. I am very aware that I went to a new school in the '60s which had been built with loads of brown asbestos board, travelled on the newly-upgraded WCML which had lots of asbestos-containing materials in its stations, travelled in ships which were spray-lagged and undoubtedly had all sorts of transient exposure in other places I could drag up if I put my mind to it.
Not smoking makes a big difference to the risk, also avoiding gross exposures. At the start of my career I think there were stripping operatives who didn't give a toss about either risk reduction measure...
 

chrisjo

Member
Joined
18 May 2024
Messages
181
Location
Cymru
Anyone with Artex ceilings dating to before about 1985 in their home has an asbestos problem.
 

Ashley Hill

Established Member
Joined
8 Dec 2019
Messages
4,047
Location
The West Country
Were boilers from ex Barry locos lagged with asbestos. If so anyone who was involved in restoration in the early years of preservation could have been exposed.
 

Harpo

Established Member
Joined
21 Aug 2024
Messages
1,333
Location
Newport
Mesothelioma is often called ‘The Swindon Disease’ due to its prevalence in the town from the railway works, including family members affected by asbestos particles bought home on work clothing.
 
Last edited:

37114

Member
Joined
4 Jul 2019
Messages
417
Were boilers from ex Barry locos lagged with asbestos. If so anyone who was involved in restoration in the early years of preservation could have been exposed.
Yes they were. In some instances it had to be removed before the locos left the yard due to the poor condition of the cladding exposing the asbestos
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,922
Anyone with Artex ceilings dating to before about 1985 in their home has an asbestos problem.
No,
So has anyone with asbestos slates, tiles, roofing sheets, insulating board, etc etc.
and No. (Generally.) These materials have asbestos fibre bound in different paints/resins/mortars. It stays there and does its job of reinforcing an otherwise-brittle material. If you don't sand it, snap it or do things to abrade or release the fibres it's OK. Also white asbestos is the least harmful in terms of the diseases it causes and its potency.
Were boilers from ex Barry locos lagged with asbestos. If so anyone who was involved in restoration in the early years of preservation could have been exposed.
Things like huge coal sacks made of spun/woven blue asbestos stuffed with shredded blue too. Big eyelets along the sides for lacing them together. Also "monkey muck" which was a hand-applied plaster.
Mesothelioma is often called ‘The Swindon Disease’ due to its prevalence in the town from the railway works, including family members affected by asbestos particles bought home on work clothing.
and other Works plus most shipbuilding towns. Spray-applied blue was the worst for fibre release as it deteriorated...
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
31,044
Location
Fenny Stratford
and No. (Generally.) These materials have asbestos fibre bound in different paints/resins/mortars. It stays there and does its job of reinforcing an otherwise-brittle material. If you don't sand it, snap it or do things to abrade or release the fibres it's OK. Also white asbestos is the least harmful in terms of the diseases it causes and its potency.
the problem comes when you have to remove said artex or you fancy putting up a new light fitting etc. THEN you can have a problem. It is fine just sitting there.

I had it in my front room and it had to be cut out

Asbestos was also found in my house, as you say, in some glue residue that had been used to stick down an old carpet, in mortar, in some plastered areas, in some roof tiles on the outhouse and some old cabling/sheathing.

Only the artex/plaster and the cables were removed. The glue residue was just painted over with some special sealant and the rest was just left.

I think a potential/explosive problem would be better!
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,922
the problem comes when you have to remove said artex or you fancy putting up a new light fitting etc. THEN you can have a problem. It is fine just sitting there.

I had it in my front room and it had to be cut out
I would have tried to steam it off first. If you can make it go gooey then scraping would have taken >95% of it off as gunge into a plastic bag. Cutting the final trace is a potental fibre generator, but if you can do that while it is still plastic or you can saturate it with detergent you minimise that too.
I should have said not much of a health problem... finding tradesmen who aren't sharks and then sensible disposal routes can be a problem.
Asbestos-cement from a garage roof isn't a problem here: the council has places you can take it and they just require that it is safely double wrapped and sealed.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
31,044
Location
Fenny Stratford
I would have tried to steam it off first. If you can make it go gooey then scraping would have taken >95% of it off as gunge into a plastic bag. Cutting the final trace is a potental fibre generator, but if you can do that while it is still plastic or you can saturate it with detergent you minimise that too.
it wasn't in good condition so I just got the men in darth vadar suits to cut it all out and replaster!
finding tradesmen who aren't sharks and then sensible disposal routes can be a problem.
Asbestos-cement from a garage roof isn't a problem here: the council has places you can take it and they just require that it is safely double wrapped and sealed.
I got a proper company to deal with it. Not as expensive as i thought!
 

75A

Established Member
Joined
31 Mar 2021
Messages
1,770
Location
Ireland (ex Brighton 75A)
A friend of mine and his brother spent all their working lives refurbing coaches @ Eastleigh and they both died as s result of what they inhaled.
 

357

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2018
Messages
1,810
I've been advised that Malcolm Gelsthorpe, the gentleman involved in this case, sadly passed away on March 7th of this year.
 

357

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2018
Messages
1,810

Malcolm Gelsthorpe’s railway career spanned nearly half a century, beginning in 1979 at Steamtown Railway Museum in Carnforth, where he worked as an electrician for almost two decades. There, he was deeply involved in restoring historic rolling stock, including luxury carriages used on the restored Venice Simplon-Orient-Express.

He continued to work on heritage rolling stock as a Quality Systems Manager at West Coast Railways, one of the UK’s most prominent charter train operators, from 1998 until his illness in 2024.

A very long and highly specialised career. RIP.
 

P Binnersley

Member
Joined
30 Dec 2018
Messages
474
Were boilers from ex Barry locos lagged with asbestos. If so anyone who was involved in restoration in the early years of preservation could have been exposed.
I recall there were working parties to Barry in the late 1960's to remove the Asbestos before new regulations came in!
 

WAO

Member
Joined
10 Mar 2019
Messages
888
A friend who was an apprentice building BR coaches told me that they had snowball fights with asbestos insulation dust.

My cousin was a 1950's ships officer, supervising loading West African asbestos in confined holds. He died of it but it couldn't be proved legally.

WAO
 

D Williams

Member
Joined
27 Jul 2022
Messages
300
Location
Worcestershire



A very long and highly specialised career. RIP.
So, given his statements about the asbestos insulation, other staff must have been exposed to this and also the passengers who later used the coaches? Are these coaches still in use?
 

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
6,895
Location
Gomshall, Surrey
British Railways were aware of asbestos as a health issue from the early 1970s, particularly with regard to first generation DMUs. At that time railway preservation was still in its infancy. BR took remedial action for first generation DMU classes with a long expected life, others nearly all went for scrap. That's why various first generation DMU classes have no examples in preservation.

I don't know the details of this particular case, but I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it is a widespread issue for railway preservation. In most cases I'd expect BR to have done the remedial work before vehicles passed into preservation.
Indeed, and I wonder how well the scrapping process was carried out back then. I can easily imagine some unwary workers diving into crushing, smashing, stripping, etc., without due care.
 

Top