Avanti Class 805/7 and Liverpool South Parkway

[mossleyhill]

As regular users of the station will know, the platforms at South Parkway are too short to take a Pendolino, leaving the station without a direct link to London since London Midland withdrew the service via New Street a couple of years ago (a service which only lasted a few years itself, and I don't think anybody actually used all the way to Euston due to it still being quicker to go into Lime St and catch the next Virgin/ Avanti). An omission which IMHO weakens its raison d'etre as a hub to catch long distance services from without going all the way into the city centre.

Given that Avanti are set to use the 805/7s on what it deems to be its less busy routes (which apparently includes the Lime St service), and the much shorter formations of the 805s (at 5 cars) could we finally see South Parkway getting a direct Avanti service to Euston? Or is there simply not the slack in the timetable to support it?

 

[urbophile]

I think the mainline platforms at Parkway are still only 4 car length. It surely wouldn't be impossible or impossibly expensive to extend them. When Lime Street was closed to London trains a few years ago, they constructed a temporary platform extension.

 

[TheGrew]

Looking at the satellite view I would have thought if there was a strong desire to extend the platforms it should be 'fairly easy' to do so northwards. I'm not super familiar with the signal placement though which I imagine might be more of an issue than actual extension works. It looks like you could extend platforms as far as the Garfourth Road bridge.

 

[Peter0124]

I thought the 807s were planned to serve Liverpool South Parkway, or has that been done away with?

 

[hexagon789]

As regular users of the station will know, the platforms at South Parkway are too short to take a Pendolino, leaving the station without a direct link to London since London Midland withdrew the service via New Street a couple of years ago (a service which only lasted a few years itself, and I don't think anybody actually used all the way to Euston due to it still being quicker to go into Lime St and catch the next Virgin/ Avanti). An omission which IMHO weakens its raison d'etre as a hub to catch long distance services from without going all the way into the city centre.

Given that Avanti are set to use the 805/7s on what it deems to be its less busy routes (which apparently includes the Lime St service), and the much shorter formations of the 805s (at 5 cars) could we finally see South Parkway getting a direct Avanti service to Euston? Or is there simply not the slack in the timetable to support it?

That is the intention, 807 on the current service which runs on 80x timings. Provision for the stop at South Parkway being made already.

The second service then becomes a more limited stop fast working, operated by a Pendolino.


This shows the intended service offering.

 

[mossleyhill]

That is the intention, 807 on the current service which runs on 80x timings. Provision for the stop at South Parkway being made already.

The second service then becomes a more limited stop fast working, operated by a Pendolino.

View attachment 161917
This shows the intended service offering.

2TPH really is good news and I know something local leaders like the Metro Mayor have been pushing for a while, but I believe the answer from Virgin was always "not enough demand" so good to see this proposal. I thought the more cautious post pandemic approach to the railway would have put it to bed for a long while! Great stuff!

 

[The Planner]

The current schedules have 2½-3 minutes in them as pathing allowance to cater for the eventual stop.

 

[hexagon789]

2TPH really is good news and I know something local leaders like the Metro Mayor have been pushing for a while, but I believe the answer from Virgin was always "not enough demand" so good to see this proposal. I thought the more cautious post pandemic approach to the railway would have put it to bed for a long while! Great stuff!

Well, I did say 'intention', you'll notice from the slide its overdue. It was originally planned for December 2022, which is when the base current Avanti service pattern was implemented.

With the power supply issues Weaver to Liverpool, meaning that an 805 would need to be used in the interim and I'm not sure there's enough to do that all day.

I could see a mixed 805/390 offering for a period possibly being a temporary workaround, with only certain services making the Parkway stop and perhaps a few more of the 390-timed fasts introduced (there are a couple each day already).

 

[kallyvintage]

I live pretty much equidistant between South Parkway and Runcorn. I dont think its as simple as extending platforms.

Runcorn is the next station stop, and just over 5 minutes away from South Parkway at line speed. While the concourse is tiny, its had major improvements on the access road for it. The road to South-Parkway can get snarled up at peak times.

The biggest trouble with South Parkway IMO, is that car park users can only use the (free) car park for 24 hours, no longer, before getting fined whereas Runcorn is happy to have you stay for a couple of days, for a small fee.
If I was going on an Avanti train its usually to places like London, where I will be stopping for one or two nights. That kills South Parkway off for me and makes Runcorn my station of choice.

IIRC, South Parkway was designed as more of a local commuter train / bus hub anyway. But I rarely see anyone take the bus there. I certainly cant take the bus from where I live to South Parkway..

 

[mossleyhill]

I live pretty much equidistant between South Parkway and Runcorn. I dont think its as simple as extending platforms.

Runcorn is the next station stop, and just over 5 minutes away from South Parkway at line speed. While the concourse is tiny, its had major improvements on the access road for it. The road to South-Parkway can get snarled up at peak times.

The biggest trouble with South Parkway IMO, is that car park users can only use the (free) car park for 24 hours, no longer, before getting fined whereas Runcorn is happy to have you stay for a couple of days, for a small fee.
If I was going on an Avanti train its usually to places like London, where I will be stopping for one or two nights. That kills South Parkway off for me and makes Runcorn my station of choice.

IIRC, South Parkway was designed as more of a local commuter train / bus hub anyway. But I rarely see anyone take the bus there. I certainly cant take the bus from where I live to South Parkway..

Another one of its main selling points was that it was supposed to be a railway jumping off point for those travelling to/ from the airport, but helpfully the 500 express bus to the airport no longer calls there, and the direct shuttle (I think it was the 505 or something similar) was cancelled years ago

 

[Djgr]

As regular users of the station will know, the platforms at South Parkway are too short to take a Pendolino, leaving the station without a direct link to London since London Midland withdrew the service via New Street a couple of years ago (a service which only lasted a few years itself, and I don't think anybody actually used all the way to Euston due to it still being quicker to go into Lime St and catch the next Virgin/ Avanti). An omission which IMHO weakens its raison d'etre as a hub to catch long distance services from without going all the way into the city centre.

Given that Avanti are set to use the 805/7s on what it deems to be its less busy routes (which apparently includes the Lime St service), and the much shorter formations of the 805s (at 5 cars) could we finally see South Parkway getting a direct Avanti service to Euston? Or is there simply not the slack in the timetable to support it?

Yes. Its raison d'etre was never as a long distance hub. This has indeed developed over the years but the lack of long stay parking reduces its appeal.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Platform lengths at Liverpool South Parkway are:
P1 123m
P2/3 137m
P4 117m

The problems with lengthening are the major CLC junction to the south, and the underbridge to the north.
Pendolinos used a specially extended southward P4 to terminate during the Lime St upgrade, but had to depart northbound and reverse to cross over to the fasts.

 

[RHolmes]

I think the mainline platforms at Parkway are still only 4 car length. It surely wouldn't be impossible or impossibly expensive to extend them. When Lime Street was closed to London trains a few years ago, they constructed a temporary platform extension.

The platforms are still 4 carriage length.

However, there won’t really be an urgent need to extend the platforms anyway once the route goes to Hitatchi operation as all Hitatchi units are fitted with ASDO as standard

The biggest trouble with South Parkway IMO, is that car park users can only use the (free) car park for 24 hours, no longer, before getting fined whereas Runcorn is happy to have you stay for a couple of days, for a small fee.

It’s a feature of all Merseyrail operated stations, they don’t allow parking beyond midnight/last train but there is plenty of on-street parking in the local area.

Another one of its main selling points was that it was supposed to be a railway jumping off point for those travelling to/ from the airport, but helpfully the 500 express bus to the airport no longer calls there, and the direct shuttle (I think it was the 505 or something similar) was cancelled years ago

That was the 501.

The brief 500 calling at South Parkway was a door decision made by Arriva when trying to cut operational costs at Runcorn (when the 500 was actually the 82A and not the separate express run which operated before and after said service), all of the aforementioned services were later reversed.

The 80A has also now seen a reduced frequency since moving to a double decker fleet and the 86A has also seen reductions including the former 24 hour service that it once had, although does operate roughly every 12 minutes mid-week which is an improvement to the previous 501 frequency, but a reduction in overall frequency.

 

[mossleyhill]

That was the 501.

The brief 500 calling at South Parkway was a door decision made by Arriva when trying to cut operational costs at Runcorn (when the 500 was actually the 82A and not the separate express run which operated before and after said service), all of the aforementioned services were later reversed.

It may be my memory playing tricks on me but I'm sure the original incarnation of the 500 (before it was merged with and then split back off from the 82A) called at Parkway. Think it was originally limited stop too. Helpfully one of which was my stop growing up!

Back to the topic of Avanti, I wonder if peak time services will be made set down/ pick up only at rush hour to stop them becoming too full with commuters, as is the case with Watford currently.

 

[Snow1964]

Platform lengths at Liverpool South Parkway are:
P1 123m
P2/3 137m
P4 117m

The platforms are still 4 carriage length.

5car x26m would be 130m which suggests 2 of the 4 platforms are actually 5car length (or 6car for 20m stock)

 

[Djgr]

It may be my memory playing tricks on me but I'm sure the original incarnation of the 500 (before it was merged with and then split back off from the 82A) called at Parkway. Think it was originally limited stop too. Helpfully one of which was my stop growing up!

Back to the topic of Avanti, I wonder if peak time services will be made set down/ pick up only at rush hour to stop them becoming too full with commuters, as is the case with Watford currently.

I would have thought most commuters would continue to use the Merseyrail.

The platforms are still 4 carriage length.

However, there won’t really be an urgent need to extend the platforms anyway once the route goes to Hitatchi operation as all Hitatchi units are fitted with ASDO as standard


It’s a feature of all Merseyrail operated stations, they don’t allow parking beyond midnight/last train but there is plenty of on-street parking in the local area.


That was the 501.

The brief 500 calling at South Parkway was a door decision made by Arriva when trying to cut operational costs at Runcorn (when the 500 was actually the 82A and not the separate express run which operated before and after said service), all of the aforementioned services were later reversed.

The 80A has also now seen a reduced frequency since moving to a double decker fleet and the 86A has also seen reductions including the former 24 hour service that it once had, although does operate roughly every 12 minutes mid-week which is an improvement to the previous 501 frequency, but a reduction in overall frequency.

Hopefully these kind of issues will be addressed with forthcoming bus franchising.

 

[Kite159]

I would have thought most commuters would continue to use the Merseyrail.


Hopefully these kind of issues will be addressed with forthcoming bus franchising.

Don't hold your breath.

 

[Chester1]

Given that Avanti are set to use the 805/7s on what it deems to be its less busy routes (which apparently includes the Lime St service), and the much shorter formations of the 805s (at 5 cars) could we finally see South Parkway getting a direct Avanti service to Euston? Or is there simply not the slack in the timetable to support it?

An 807 has more standard class seats than a 9 coach Pendolino but fewer first class seats. Compared with the current 11 coach Pendolino service once an hour the total hourly seating of the 807 services will be a significant increase in capacity of standard class and a decent increase in first class.

 

[Djgr]

Don't hold your breath.

The timetable for bus franchising is:

• Round 1 St Helens
• Round 2 Wirral
• Round 3 Sefton
• Round 4 North Liverpool & North Knowsley
• Round 5 South Liverpool, South Knowsley & Halton

and so, yes it will Round 5, which is 2028.

Perhaps the government legislation announced yesterday might speed this up?

 

[Chester1]

The timetable for bus franchising is:

• Round 1 St Helens
• Round 2 Wirral
• Round 3 Sefton
• Round 4 North Liverpool & North Knowsley
• Round 5 South Liverpool, South Knowsley & Halton

and so, yes it will Round 5, which is 2028.

Perhaps the government legislation announced yesterday might speed this up?

The legislation has been in place for a quite a while. I think since Thersea May's government. The phased approach is a local decision and is risk management. TfGM started with two of its ten boroughs.

Does anyone know the % of rail passengers at South Parkway that connect with bus services?

 

[frodshamfella]

I live pretty much equidistant between South Parkway and Runcorn. I dont think its as simple as extending platforms.

Runcorn is the next station stop, and just over 5 minutes away from South Parkway at line speed. While the concourse is tiny, its had major improvements on the access road for it. The road to South-Parkway can get snarled up at peak times.

The biggest trouble with South Parkway IMO, is that car park users can only use the (free) car park for 24 hours, no longer, before getting fined whereas Runcorn is happy to have you stay for a couple of days, for a small fee.
If I was going on an Avanti train its usually to places like London, where I will be stopping for one or two nights. That kills South Parkway off for me and makes Runcorn my station of choice.

IIRC, South Parkway was designed as more of a local commuter train / bus hub anyway. But I rarely see anyone take the bus there. I certainly cant take the bus from where I live to South Parkway..

I think the reason for the 24 hours at the car park is to prevent airport passengers parking there.

 

[Djgr]

The legislation has been in place for a quite a while. I think since Thersea May's government. The phased approach is a local decision and is risk management. TfGM started with two of its ten boroughs.

Does anyone know the % of rail passengers at South Parkway that connect with bus services?

The new legislation is going to allow all local communities to take back control of their bus services, not just those with Metro mayors.

Hopefully there will be something in the legislation to restrict filibustering by the bus bandits and speed things up.

 

[Chester1]

The new legislation is going to allow all local communities to take back control of their bus services, not just those with Metro mayors.

Hopefully there will be something in the legislation to restrict filibustering by the bus bandits and speed things up.

Yes but Liverpool South Parkway is in an area with a Metro Mayor. The prerequisite was a devolution deal mirroring Manchester. A phased approach is inevitable. It's the most visible sign of English devolution and a big bang approach has too much reputation risk. One borough at a time makes good sense for LCR. It will be mostly the same people involved and they will gain more experience each time.

 

[Djgr]

Yes but Liverpool South Parkway is in an area with a Metro Mayor. The prerequisite was a devolution deal mirroring Manchester. A phased approach is inevitable. It's the most visible sign of English devolution and a big bang approach has too much reputation risk. One borough at a time makes good sense for LCR. It will be mostly the same people involved and they will gain more experience each time.

The point I was making is that there is also new legislation relating to bus franchising that might be relevant for the process.

I think that as bus franchising becomes more the norm the process will speed up.

 

[Chester1]

The point I was making is that there is also new legislation relating to bus franchising that might be relevant for the process.

I think that as bus franchising becomes more the norm the process will speed up.

Under current legislation Liverpool City Region could move much faster than they are. I don't see why how legislation would speed things up. Five rounds looks like a delibrate locally made decision to reduce risk. If there are problems the political fall out is limited and lessons learnt benefit the other boroughs. I doubt there will be any significant improvement to rail and bus connections and ticketing until 2028.

 

[Meerkat]

Platform lengths at Liverpool South Parkway are:
P1 123m
P2/3 137m
P4 117m

The problems with lengthening are the major CLC junction to the south, and the underbridge to the north.
Pendolinos used a specially extended southward P4 to terminate during the Lime St upgrade, but had to depart northbound and reverse to cross over to the fasts.

An unscientific look at Google suggests the underbridge girders are pretty marginal on whether you could get a platform on top of them that was low enough for standards. Lifting the track would add cost and might mean the current platforms need playing with.
If there is significant usage then short platforms aren’t going to help dwell times. Do seat chooser algorithms include putting you in the right coach to be platformed?

 

[Chester1]

An unscientific look at Google suggests the underbridge girders are pretty marginal on whether you could get a platform on top of them that was low enough for standards. Lifting the track would add cost and might mean the current platforms need playing with.
If there is significant usage then short platforms aren’t going to help dwell times. Do seat chooser algorithms include putting you in the right coach to be platformed?

Without doubt the platforms could be extended northwards but at significant cost and there isn't enough demand to justify it yet. Let's see how the 807s work.